CM3 - really THAT good?

[The Listener]

Originally Posted by polytope

The violin is a (cheap?) copy of a Balestrieri, a bit dull sounding.

I'm starting to feel that the CM3's don't work in XY-90 degrees.

From those two statements I would conclude that no.2 is CM3...

[king2070lplaya]

Cm3 are wide-cardioid, ie they get pickup from all around, even at 180 deg. Definitely not to be used in x-y ;-). Put them in NOS or AB and then we'll talk :-D

[polytope]

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya

Cm3 are wide-cardioid, ie they get pickup from all around, even at 180 deg. Definitely not to be used in x-y ;-). Put them in NOS or AB and then we'll talk :-D

I did post a couple of organ tracks with CM3s in NOS. What did you think of those? (Too bad I didn't have access to the Zoom at that time for a shootout.)

I'll say more about this "flawed" shoot out later today. I learned a few things from it.

[king2070lplaya]

Originally Posted by polytope

I did post a couple of organ tracks with CM3s in NOS. What did you think of those? (Too bad I didn't have access to the Zoom at that time for a shootout.)

I'll say more about this "flawed" shoot out later today. I learned a few things from it.

They sounded great man! I really liked em.

[polytope]

Since I have pretty much given the answer away, I'll just babble a bit. (Yes, 2 was done with CM3, MixPre-D, and MacBook Air. What a waste ).

Frankly, I was quite surprised by the performance of the Zoom. I had recorded something else earlier which actually sounded fuller and smoother (but also noisier) on the Zoom. I couldn't really believe what I heard. Then I did the violin experiment. The CM3 was a bit more honest and less noisy. The Zoom hyped the sound a little bit and was noisier but the imaging was a bit better.

I think that if the Zoom had a quieter preamp (like the one on my Sony PCM-M10 for example), I would trade in my Sony for one of these in a heartbeat. It's the perfect tool for making quick and dirty rehearsal recordings. (And you have the option of recording in 4 tracks.)

In summary, the CM3s in this so-called shootout did not perform well for two main reasons: wrong technique (coincident) and bad room. (And of course, bad playing on a relatively cheap violin.)

Anyway, I'll have another chance to put the CM3s to the test at a wedding tonight. I hope I will have some results to share. The Zoom will also be used somewhere along the way. More details later. Stay tuned.

[Wesma]

Well this is interesting, have to say I'm quite impressed with the zoom mics but then again it would be nice to hear how this shoot out turned out under better conditions.

I also very intrested if someone could explain why wide cardioids doesn't work that well in XY...

[king2070lplaya]

Originally Posted by Wesma

Well this is interesting, have to say I'm quite impressed with the zoom mics but then again it would be nice to hear how this shoot out turned out under better conditions.

I also very intrested if someone could explain why wide cardioids doesn't work that well in XY...

It's because they don't offer enough rejection from 90 degrees off axis and continuing to 180 at the rear, and that rejection is what creates the nice stereo image of a coincident pair. Think about why you don't use 2 omnis in a coincident setup; the sub cardioid doesn't work well for the same reasons.

This also why folks suggest a "wide ORTF" setup for these mics, or Schoeps mk21s. You need to use some time cues to compensate for the lack of rejection.

[Bibster]

Originally Posted by polytope

(And you have the option of recording in 4 tracks.)

As does the zoom, but that's another thread (And I mean, yes 4 track with 4 real mic's, not the internal electrets)

[polytope]

As promised, attached are two tracks from a wedding.

Main pair is CM3 (110 degrees 20 cm apart) 9m from organ, 5m from the ground. The rest of the chain is a MixPre-D into a Sony PCM-M10.

The track with soprano, trumpet, and organ has a couple of OM1 spots going into the Zoom H4N. Quite a bit of background noise because it was recorded during the prelude while the guests were settling in.

The track with the choir has the Zoom internal mics peppered in. A bit of noise coming from the air leaking from the organ pistons. (The organ is falling apart and is in desperate need of a $200K repair, I heard.)

[Oren]

The reason test 2 (CM3) sounded dull is that an XY pair placed outside of the reverbration radius sounds dull (not only in the living room). the Zoom has a presence boost which gives the effect of a better reach, thus giving the illusion of higher detail. if you raise 3-4 dB around 8kHz in the CM3 track you will be surprised...
Also a Schoeps MK2 (linear capsule) placed 6-7m away from a church organ (not XY, in AB!) will sound dull. Either you give the necessary HF boost in post production or you get the MK3 cap which already has this HF boost done in the mic preamp (mic body).
I did find that the CM3 gave higher detail - in this case the detail would be the sound of your living room
The CM3 strikes me more as an "open cardioid" rather than a wide cardioid. More like Schoeps MK22.
About the Zoom - two cheap chinese electret capsules going into cheap 4$ opamps and then into an 8$ ADC - I mean it's a great tool for doing control recordings of rehearsals or gigs, but really not more than that.
If you wanna compare mics you gotta place them in the reverbration radius. Outside this radius, that is, in the diffuse field, you can't have a real impression of the mic's performance, it's imaging and so on. The further you are in the diffuse field, the less you can tell about a mic and it's performance. When you are that far away from the source, all you can hear is the coloration of the sound made by the room acoustics, which leads some to think it's the mic coloring the sound source.

[Bibster]

You mean Critical distance, when you say reverberation radius.

[Wesma]

Originally Posted by Oren

The reason test 2 (CM3) sounded dull is that an XY pair placed outside of the reverbration radius sounds dull (not only in the living room). the Zoom has a presence boost which gives the effect of a better reach, thus giving the illusion of higher detail. if you raise 3-4 dB around 8kHz in the CM3 track you will be surprised...
Also a Schoeps MK2 (linear capsule) placed 6-7m away from a church organ (not XY, in AB!) will sound dull. Either you give the necessary HF boost in post production or you get the MK3 cap which already has this HF boost done in the mic preamp (mic body).
I did find that the CM3 gave higher detail - in this case the detail would be the sound of your living room
The CM3 strikes me more as an "open cardioid" rather than a wide cardioid. More like Schoeps MK22.
About the Zoom - two cheap chinese electret capsules going into cheap 4$ opamps and then into an 8$ ADC - I mean it's a great tool for doing control recordings of rehearsals or gigs, but really not more than that.
If you wanna compare mics you gotta place them in the reverbration radius. Outside this radius, that is, in the diffuse field, you can't have a real impression of the mic's performance, it's imaging and so on. The further you are in the diffuse field, the less you can tell about a mic and it's performance. When you are that far away from the source, all you can hear is the coloration of the sound made by the room acoustics, which leads some to think it's the mic coloring the sound source.

Well said

[polytope]

Originally Posted by Oren

If you wanna compare mics you gotta place them in the reverbration radius. Outside this radius, that is, in the diffuse field, you can't have a real impression of the mic's performance, it's imaging and so on. The further you are in the diffuse field, the less you can tell about a mic and it's performance. When you are that far away from the source, all you can hear is the coloration of the sound made by the room acoustics, which leads some to think it's the mic coloring the sound source.

Both the Zoom and the CM3s were 5 feet away from the source (violin). I suppose that's not quite in the diffuse field?

[Oren]

Originally Posted by Bibster

You mean Critical distance, when you say reverberation radius.

exactly! forgot the english term... thanks for the correction

[Oren]

Originally Posted by polytope

Both the Zoom and the CM3s were 5 feet away from the source (violin). I suppose that's not quite in the diffuse field?

you would be surprised how small the critical distance could be in a small room, mainly because of the strong reflections from the concrete walls and ceiling. My impression from your recording was that the mics were indeed not in the critical distance.
other important factors could be:
1. the sound emission of your violin - if the direct sound of your instrument is going mainly to the walls or away from the capsules
2. how you point the mics (also very much in relation to 1.)
3. where you place them in the room
4. how loud your instrument is or how loud you play

Another thing you should know about XY 90° with cardioids - it gives good results only when placed in an ensemble, whereas the group is around the mic in a total angle of ca. 180° (the official SRA is 195°). If you place it in front of a single instrument too far away, the two capsules can't get the level cues (min. 6 dB) needed to create a nice stereo image (that means that the sound source is almost equaly loud for both capsules), hence placing the sound source directly in a small spot in the center of the stereo image (between the speakers) and the room sound all around it. The result sounds kind of "monish".

[Empiria]

Originally Posted by Oren

The CM3 strikes me more as an "open cardioid" rather than a wide cardioid. More like Schoeps MK22.

That is my impression, too. I have no experience with MK22 but to my ears CM3 seems to have tighter pattern than MK21.

[Lux]

Line Audio has Pre's to....I use the The 8 channel and that works great.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Lux

Line Audio has Pre's to....I use the The 8 channel and that works great.

You had better expand on that one, or start a new thread.

[SoSueMe]

Originally Posted by Lux

Line Audio has Pre's to....I use the The 8 channel and that works great.

Yeah, like how would you compare it to other clean/neutral preamps you may have?

[Lux]

Originally Posted by SoSueMe

Yeah, like how would you compare it to other clean/neutral preamps you may have?

I hav not actually made tests of same source at same time to compare....
My other pre's are NevePortico 5032, and Joemeek Twin Qcs. To me Mp 8 is cleaner than NevePortico, less character, but as good. And Mp 8 and Cm3 is a great combination on acoustic instruments. ( there is a 2 channel version to)

I bought the 8 mp ( 8 channel) some years ago when I got a job recording an concert in a church. I searched the net for reviews of pre's - recording acoustic instruments. A studio in south Sweden had done tests of pre's up to 3000 euro, and the liked the 8 Mp best ( dont know the other brands). That was enough for me to buy this unheard ( i did call the studio and they was convincing about this amp)- price for 8 channels; about 700 euro. I am very very pleased!

[polytope]

Originally Posted by Lux

I hav not actually made tests of same source at same time to compare....
My other pre's are NevePortico 5032, and Joemeek Twin Qcs. To me Mp 8 is cleaner than NevePortico, less character, but as good. And Mp 8 and Cm3 is a great combination on acoustic instruments. ( there is a 2 channel version to)

I bought the 8 mp ( 8 channel) some years ago when I got a job recording an concert in a church. I searched the net for reviews of pre's - recording acoustic instruments. A studio in south Sweden had done tests of pre's up to 3000 euro, and the liked the 8 Mp best ( dont know the other brands). That was enough for me to buy this unheard ( i did call the studio and they was convincing about this amp)- price for 8 channels; about 700 euro. I am very very pleased!

Is 2MP comparable to DAV BG1?

[didier.brest]

Comparison of the 8MP with the DAV BG1 and other ones here.

[Empiria]

Originally Posted by boojum

You had better expand on that one, or start a new thread.

It's time for a new thread, this one is about a microphone.

[basmartin]

CM3 as drum OH:s, through RME UCX preamps.

Here´s the song, mixed Inner Urge by Henrik Gad on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

[polytope]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Comparison of the 8MP with the DAV BG1 and other ones here.

Thanks. I actually have heard the samples before. Totally forgotten about it.

The DAV BG1 is REALLY sweet. Man, that's next on my purchase list.

[jpgerard]

Thanks Didier!!! Hadn't found this yet.

[lamutabor]

Hi, today i got my CM3 and did litle classical guitar recording test. I like this small microphone

[fry_]

Hey

This is my first post on GS. Thank to helpful people from this 'Remote' forum I found cm3s and although I have them for very short time I'm very happy with them. I almost decided to buy a new DPA 2006 pair but than I noticed these little modest looking mics ;-)
For ppl interested I'd like to share my recent live recording of Haydn Symphony 49 (excerpt). What is important, it was first performance of this ensemble, no conductor, on historical instruments. Too long (high) church reverb.
Cheers
Fry

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by fry_

Hey
Too long (high) church reverb.

Not disturbing to me. Just nice !

[SoundTv]

Originally Posted by fry_

Hey
I like your recording. Could you please give us some more details. I'm testing too Cm3.

Cheers.

Massimo

This is my first post on GS. Thank to helpful people from this 'Remote' forum I found cm3s and although I have them for very short time I'm very happy with them. I almost decided to buy a new DPA 2006 pair but than I noticed these little modest looking mics ;-)
For ppl interested I'd like to share my recent live recording of Haydn Symphony 49 (excerpt). What is important, it was first performance of this ensemble, no conductor, on historical instruments. Too long (high) church reverb.
Cheers
Fry