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-   -   DAV BG-1 and Millennia HV-3: you can listen with me (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/63297-dav-bg-1-millennia-hv-3-you-can-listen-me.html)

ISedlacek 16th March 2006 02:01 PM

DAV BG-1 and Millennia HV-3: you can listen with me
 
DAV BG-1 arrived today. With a big curiousity I recorded few quick instrumental samples through DAV and Millennia (flutes, drum, viola, monochord). All recorded with a pair of Schoeps MK2 and Lavry AD. Originally recorded to 96/32, dithered through PoWR3 and downsampled through Voxengo r8BrainPro to 44/16 wav. The samples are rough, totally unprocessed in any way. Normalised, but some ocassional peaks can make certain parts dynamically uneven ...

Please, be aware that the playing is totally unscientifical with all possible imperfections, the performances are not 100% identical, so please do not study each tone separately. Just for an overall feeling. It however gave me quite a clear picture about both preamps ...
I will share my own impressions later on.

Millennia HV3

DAV BG1

Ivo 16th March 2006 02:44 PM

OK, I'll start
 
Just listened on Ultrasone 2500 headphones on my iBook. No ideal conditions but I could tell a difference in character. I think the DAV is very good. It sounds more intimate than the HV-3. Bit more low/mids in there I think; things like the low-level percussive sounds of the fingering 'pops' on the recorder sound a tad heavier on the DAV. The HV-3 wins on realism; sounds more like I'm there in the room. I might prefer the DAV on most sources. Interesting. Thanks for posting this!

Curious to know what you think.

best,

Ivo W.

(there's more than one Ivo around here, I noticed, so I'll add the 'W.' on my postings...)

PS Bummer that your STT-1 tubes were already sold...

xaos 16th March 2006 04:53 PM

I just listened and am liking what I hear of the DAV. It is impressive in the low/low mids and seems to have picked up some additional tansient information. I have only listened shortly, but the HV has a something in the upper mids (or lack thereof?) that the DAV doesn't. Its almost like what the one has, the other lacks and vice versa. My .02. I am listening on my laptop through sony headphones so my opinion may be way off the mark. My initial impression though is that I prefer the millenia. The DAV is big sounding, but after listening to the comparisions I am gravitating towards the Millenia. That is just bias though. Thanks for the examples!

leifislive 16th March 2006 07:53 PM

***** Great examples *****
 
Hi,

thank you so much Ivo for the most helpful thread on this so far highly theoretically and "authorically" discussed issue. So here we are now and can decide what we like.

I listened to Sennheiser HD 600.

Well, I think, these samples do clearly show a difference between the two units. I personally tend to say, the BG DAV amplifies in a way, that everything sounds somehow "pleasent"; this is especially audible to me with the viola, flute and recorder samples. It is nice, but it is a little bit like a "curtain in front of you"; potentially nasty things are eliminated. That may be helpful on strings sometimes with their intrinsic bow sound or on wood winds, but on the other hand monochord and drums do not sound as "fat" as with the hv3. I think, the latter gives the clue; I suppose this is the trade of for sounding pleasent on "string and winds" like instruments.

I would tend to say, that it sounds like the company claims... a little like the DECCA recordings of the late 70's I own (mainly Solti recordings).

I suspect from these samples, that you will always get nice sounding results from both units, and if you want to sound like DECCA did in these days the BG DAV along with the TLM50 should get you quite close....
But - unless you did not change your position between the two viola samples quite a lot and paid less attention while recording with the Millennia (this is not meant to be critizising you) to your bow arm...- I would speculate, that I would prefer to do rather some more tweaking on the perfect mic position and record with the Millennia, if I want a rather "energetic"/"lively" sound.

Thanks again. It is a question of taste. I cannot tell which one is more realistic... to me neither is... but I think I can clearly tell from your "little" work which of the both will influence the overall sound of any acoustic instrument or even orchestra recorded in which way.

I hope this thread stays well spoken!

Best

Leif

T.RayBullard 16th March 2006 08:56 PM

Thanks for the samples, I shouldve put some up myself but havent gotten my new recorder yet. The samples help confirm what all the BG1 owners already know, and as ive done my own comparisons with the Millennia HV-3C, I much prefer the BG1....just more pleasing overall...more musical. Goes to show you that you do not have to spend thousands on "big names" to get world class results..though I suspect in a while the BG1 may have quite a surge in popularity..even more so than it already has. Contemplating selling my Millennia.....

ISedlacek 16th March 2006 09:16 PM

So, in the evening I tried to play a bit more with the preamp and recorded some more sophisticated samples to compare both in more serious way ...

First I experienced few funny moments - I compared again violin and viola and could not help feeling that Millennia sounds clearly better. Tried few times - the same, DAV sounded a bit strange. I started cursing a bit Mr.Plush and Mr. Teddy for recommending me this thing ... And was wondering how I could like it in the morning ... With a big disappointment I started thinking whether better to return the unit to Mr.Mick or to try to sell it... When I tried again, I suddenly noticed that together with the phantom power button I pressed also the phase button for the first channel ... After I switched it off, the magic started again ! What a relief ...

Sorry for rather imperfect samples above, I did not pay much attention to any sophisticated microphones settings and playing, I was too curious .. (of course, as Leif said, the microphones position for viola should be much better - more distant etc. Next time)

Anyway, to share my direct impressions after trying to play with it more on various sources. Just the essence:
I don t care too much about analysing frequencies etc. while comparing. For me the most important thing is the emotional appeal of the sound, the vibes, the soothing effect, euphony. This is the aim of my music creation in general.

To my ears DAV sounds significantly more pleasant than HV-3 on most sources. Comparing to the DAV, HV-3 seems to sound a bit "abrasive" and aggressive in HF ... Also a bit thinner in a way. DAV is more relaxed and friendly sounding. Like a seasoned flowing river vs. young brittle lady ...

As far as the "faithfullness" to the sources is concerned, I feel that my instruments sound in reality closer to DAV than to Millennia. They are not that sharp as they sound through HV-3 ... Yes, DAV can be a great ticket for all my strings and winds to sound nice. So far I often felt a bit uneasy with the kind of almost a "digital" HF harshness and had to fight with it somehow. I don´t know what the price is for this "pleasantness" (frequency-wise), but nothing is really free...

Now I have really a nice preamp palette. After selling my HV-3 (no need to keep it any more), I have a pair of Origins (with slightly more veiled HV-3 and M2B) and Pendulum (which is great for vocals, drums etc.).

The only complaint I have regarding the DAV is the ergonomy. I was immediately taken aback by the fact there is no power switch at all ! You have to plug and unplug the power cord ... A bit funny ... There are so many extremely tiny buttons spread all around. I will never use any of them (various pads, phase, HF filters). The most important button (phantom power) is however hidden under the left (also very tiny) gain control, it is quite difficult to squeeze the finger there to press it. The phase button is so close to it that it is very easy to press both (as already happened to me) and there is no indication that the phase is on ...
Pity that these simply and easy things were not taken into consideration together with the wonderful sound ...

I have yet to try it on my classical guitar (and compare it to Pendulum) and also on vocals - tomorrow Gefell UM 900 and UM75 will come to visit me ...
So - quite a big gearslutz feast in these days abduction

ISedlacek 16th March 2006 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zvenx
many thanks.
one thing I do not understand did you record everything in stereo using both channels?
Because I do not understand why the phase button will affect sound when using one channel?

thanks
rsp

I recorded everything in stereo on a pair of Schoeps. The phase button is only on the first channel. Yes, pressing it influences the sound in a scary way :-)

Funny - before I finished the reply , your original message disappeared ?

zvenx 16th March 2006 10:45 PM

lol. I reread your first post which clearly said it was recorded in stereo etc....lol..and therefore phase would obviously affect it, deleted my post, so the whole world doesn't realise what an idiot I am...lol...... but you responded and quoted my post which no longer exists ;)
thanks
rsp

leifislive 16th March 2006 10:45 PM

Thanks for your comments, Ivo.

Please keep us updated with the "gearslutz festival" coming the next days; it would be so much more help than one thousand words on the units....

Thanks again howdy

Leif

ISedlacek 16th March 2006 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leifislive
Thanks for your comments, Ivo.

Please keep us updated with the "gearslutz festival" coming the next days; it would be so much more help than one thousand words on the units....

Thanks again howdy

Leif

Well, with Gefells (although I am quite excited to welcome these gems here) it would be a bit more difficult. I don´t think I can possibly post my singing heh

Chris 16th March 2006 11:09 PM

I'd be interested to hear opinions for these pres on rock guitar and drums (snare/kick/ohs).

elswhrco 17th March 2006 06:26 AM

What the hell is a "mon"? Sounds amazing (and much better with the Millennia).

Douglas.

PS - I think we seem to have identical tastes in equipment and sound preference. I've love the Schoeps sound, got the Lavry, HV-3, and use Samplitude (I'm guessing you do too...?). Did you ever try out the DPA stuff? What d'ya think compared to Schoeps? Also, I'd be really curious to hear how you compare the Gefell 900 to the 75...

ISedlacek 17th March 2006 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalstudio
What the hell is a "mon"? Sounds amazing (and much better with the Millennia).

It is monochord. Being quite familiar with the instrument, I actually prefer the DAV sound - more liquid, spacy and less obtrusive in HF. Here is a photo:

http://www.savita.me.cz/show/mon.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalstudio
Did you ever try out the DPA stuff? What d'ya think compared to Schoeps?

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...&highlight=dpa abduction
I am happy I have Schoeps ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalstudio
Also, I'd be really curious to hear how you compare the Gefell 900 to the 75...

Me too ... I am very excited about them. Have no idea how they could sound. Should arrive today. I have never tried this calibre of LD microphone. I have U87ai (which I just sold, not being too impressed by it) and heard ADK CE, Beyer 834, Octava, the tube CAD, AT 4047, Sony C38 etc. but never the Gefell class ...

To crown my "gearslutz festival" I just ordered Jecklin disc from MBHO :-)

TEMAS 17th March 2006 10:32 AM

Thanks for those clips - very informative. I think there is more 'realism' with the HV, and I think I prefer the extra detail that it seems to give on the 'mon' and the 'viola' recordings, which would be the kind of instruments that I would more often record than a flute for example. I completely agree that the DAV gives a little more character which seems to slightly flatter everything that goes through it and probably helps make things sit in the mix better.

OT - I can't find any pictures of the 4 channel version of the HV-3d - is it the same as the 8ch version but with 4 dummy knobs? Also, has any got the summing mixer option with the 8ch version, and if so, how do you rate it?

elswhrco 17th March 2006 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISedlacek
It is monochord. Being quite familiar with the instrument, I actually prefer the DAV sound - more liquid, spacy and less obtrusive in HF. Here is a photo:

http://www.savita.me.cz/show/mon.jpg

OOOh. Nice. I read in your other post that the guy who makes them has vanished - mysterious! Beautiful sound.

With regards to the recording, I find it strange that you found the DAV more spacy. liguid, less obtrusive HF, sure - but more spacy that the Millennia? I thought that's what set the Millennia apart - better imaging and a slightly wider soundstage.



Quote:

Originally Posted by ISedlacek
http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...&highlight=dpa abduction
I am happy I have Schoeps ...

I read that post and had a listen to the clips. I'd be inclined to agree with you, but then I happen to like the Schoeps sound. Did you ever get a chance to try out the 4003s? Seemingly they're better. Like you feelings pre-shoot-out, I've got a bit of a "can the Schoeps really be that good considering how reasonably priced they are" complex.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ISedlacek
Me too ... I am very excited about them. Have no idea how they could sound. Should arrive today. I have never tried this calibre of LD microphone. I have U87ai (which I just sold, not being too impressed by it) and heard ADK CE, Beyer 834, Octava, the tube CAD, AT 4047, Sony C38 etc. but never the Gefell class ...

Can I ask why you're demo-ing the LD mic's? From what I've heard, you're not really into vocal recordings, so why the interest in these things?

[edit: Just been checking out your website and it says you do vocal stuff too, so I guess that's why.]

Also, you have B&W 801 S3 Matrix speakers - I guess that's what you're monitoring on, right? What amplification are you using? I ask, becuase that could have an effect on what you're perceiving as the true recorded sound...

elswhrco 17th March 2006 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRay
You are a fine example of someone who thinks that something has to sound better because it is more expensive, as evidenced by your feelings of the millennia and DPAs. ..there is more than one person who prefers the sound of DAV to millennia(me included, as I have both, and I prefer schoeps over DPAs too!)..It sounds like you are challenging what he hears and implying that it is wrong(talking about the monitor chain).

And you're a fine example of someone who reads too much into things.

Not only that, I said that I'm a Schoeps guy. I haven't tried DPA and was just curious about it. The reason that I ask about monitoring is that, to my ears and monitors, the schoeps/DAV combo just seemed a tad clouded compared to the Millennia (but of course, I'm talking minute degrees here).

To be quite frank, I found your post and its implications a little insulting.

Douglas.

elswhrco 17th March 2006 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRay
if you want to borrow one of my DAVs, natural sound for comps....you can...get ready to sell your millennia though. ;)

I wouldn't sell the Millennia. Ergonomically I find it to be near perfect and it stands up to life on the road (I do quite a bit of location recording).

Riccardo 17th March 2006 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISedlacek
Well, with Gefells (although I am quite excited to welcome these gems here) it would be a bit more difficult. I don´t think I can possibly post my singing heh

You will have to by popular demand heh

TEMAS 17th March 2006 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalstudio

To be quite frank, I found your post and its implications a little insulting.

Douglas.

Totally. Whats with all the bad feelings?

And off topic - Cheers for the NS Kit7. Best £50 I ever spent. thumbsup

elswhrco 17th March 2006 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEMAS
And off topic - Cheers for the NS Kit7. Best £50 I ever spent. thumbsup

Hey - thanks very much!

leifislive 17th March 2006 03:01 PM

Hey....

Now it happens again... isn't it possible to stay to the main issue and just find out that people prefer different sounds for different reasons since there are different tastes?

Do you all want "big mac audio" all over the world???

Although I would prefer the millennia from the posten samples, I can totally understand why other people prefer the DAV... That's the same with DPA, Schoeps and anything else.

Personally, after listening to a record for the fifth time, I am not any longer interested whether it was done by whatever equipment as long as it is not sounding crappy, I am interested whether I like the music/perfomance/interpretation and so on....

Please calm down... this thread has the opportunity to become very informative, so let's keep it there.

Best

Leif

T.RayBullard 17th March 2006 03:48 PM

apologies. I see a lot of snobbishness in the classical realm both as a performer and as a recordist, so I am quite reactionary at times. I deleted my original post. Carry on. Ivo...thanks again for the examples. Id love to hear those MGs too..

jkthtyrt






Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalstudio
And you're a fine example of someone who reads too much into things.

Not only that, I said that I'm a Schoeps guy. I haven't tried DPA and was just curious about it. The reason that I ask about monitoring is that, to my ears and monitors, the schoeps/DAV combo just seemed a tad clouded compared to the Millennia (but of course, I'm talking minute degrees here).

To be quite frank, I found your post and its implications a little insulting.

Douglas.


bhp 17th March 2006 05:38 PM

Ivo, thanks for the samples and your time. I have been following this thread from the other post and have been looking forward to hearing your recordings.

I found the DAV to be much better on everything except flute 2.
The DAV seems to be more real and accurate.

I personally have never liked the HV3, whereas I think the Pendulum is amazing. I am looking forward to your comparision of Pendulum and DAV.

ISedlacek 17th March 2006 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalstudio
With regards to the recording, I find it strange that you found the DAV more spacy. liguid, less obtrusive HF, sure - but more spacy that the Millennia? I thought that's what set the Millennia apart - better imaging and a slightly wider soundstage.

Well, as I said, with DAV I feel quite relieved from the HF abrasiveness. And yet - DAV does not seem to filter some frequencies ... I tried a simple test today - just processed a piece of music through DAV. There was no lack of anything as a result, it was just very slightly more pronounced than the original ...
As for the space - DAV sounds a bit more "intimate", slightly large, which may bring a feeling of "larger space" ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalstudio
I read that post and had a listen to the clips. I'd be inclined to agree with you, but then I happen to like the Schoeps sound. Did you ever get a chance to try out the 4003s? Seemingly they're better. Like you feelings pre-shoot-out, I've got a bit of a "can the Schoeps really be that good considering how reasonably priced they are" complex.

I have not tried 4003 and most probably will never do. I just assured myself that Schoeps are in the top league and the differences is microscopical. They are just tools, but the music makes a real difference, so I will concentrate rather on music. I am sure Josephson, Gefells etc. make also great SD mics, but I simply do not need them ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalstudio
Can I ask why you're demo-ing the LD mic's? From what I've heard, you're not really into vocal recordings, so why the interest in these things?

[edit: Just been checking out your website and it says you do vocal stuff too, so I guess that's why.]

Yes, sometimes I sing, more often there are some guest singers here ... I am happy that now I will have more sweet and much less strident sound that my former U87 ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalstudio
Also, you have B&W 801 S3 Matrix speakers - I guess that's what you're monitoring on, right? What amplification are you using? I ask, becuase that could have an effect on what you're perceiving as the true recorded sound...

Currently I use a power amp made by a famous local audio wizard. This power amp (according some direct tests) is sonically slightly above the level of Bryston 4B-ST.

ISedlacek 17th March 2006 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhp
I found the DAV to be much better on everything except flute 2.
The DAV seems to be more real and accurate.

I personally have never liked the HV3, whereas I think the Pendulum is amazing. I am looking forward to your comparision of Pendulum and DAV.

Apart from the aesthetics which to my ears is on the DAV side, I also feel that DAV is a bit closer to the real sound of the instruments. Pendulum is truly amazing - for my LD vocal tests there is no comparison. For some acoustic instruments I might prefer the more neutral DAV.

freemidnight 18th March 2006 12:48 AM

Not heard the samples but one question arises.

Choosing a pair of mics (with their own sonic character) and choosing some type of instruments/mics choice and not tweaking mic placement is probably making a favorable sound from one to the other against a million possibilities.

Think about sound pick-up: you have to experiment any combinations before make up your mind about the "colour" you want isn't it?

I hope that i've been clear enough to be understood, soory for my poor englishdiddlydoo

Theo Desktop 18th March 2006 07:22 AM

Ivo, I always appreciate your samples because of the instruments being used and the high quality of the samples. I was anticipating your audio samples as I was very curious to the quality of the DAV. I really thought that both samples sounded amazing but I honestly found myself being drawn to the HV3 on all of the samples except the monochord and the drum. I thought that particularly on the flute and the recorder the upper mids and HF on the DAV were not as pleasant to my ears as the HV3. The HF on the DAV seems slightly attenuated compared to the HV3. All that being said, the DAV is very impressive sounding and I thought differences were marginal. Thanks for taking time to post your results and I don't think I'm alone in saying that we would love to hear a vocal sample!heh

Theo

ISedlacek 18th March 2006 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theo Desktop
The HF on the DAV seems slightly attenuated compared to the HV3.

I explored this a bit ...

1) I recorded few instruments (mostly flutes) through DAV and HV-3 and then repeatedly listened to the recordings and played the same instruments live again. In each case I felt that the DAV rendering is somehow closer to the real sound of the instruments. In reality they do not have that slight sharpish edge as I hear through Millennia.

2) I did even more straightforward test: just processed straight few pieces of music through DAV and Millennia and then compared both to the original. The HV-3 processed sample was not the same as the original - a slight "abrasive" HF touch was added (the same type I always hear on my recordings). The DAV sample sounded almost 100% identical with the original. There was maybe just some very tiny marginal 0,1% loss (probably attributed to DA AD path), very microscopical ...

So, based on that (and my long time experience with HV-3) I would rather turn your comment in an opposite way. Comparing to DAV, HV-3 seems to exaggerate some HF. Which on the first hearing may seem more impressive (including the "soundstage" as Douglas mentioned), but we are talking about a faithful rendering, aren´t we ? I would much prefer to add a pleasant EQ later if needed ...

As for Douglas´comment about the wider HV-3 soundstage , it is an interesting question. I am not sure about it. I rather feel that this feeling may come from the added HF and if there is some slightly larger soundstage, I feel that the extra width is somehow borrowed from the depth ...

All these just my personal subjective comments and impressions, nothing more ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theo Desktop
I don't think I'm alone in saying that we would love to hear a vocal sample!heh

It actually happened ... (see the Gefell thread)

elswhrco 18th March 2006 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISedlacek
2) I did even more straightforward test: just processed straight few pieces of music through DAV and Millennia and then compared both to the original. The HV-3 processed sample was not the same as the original - a slight "abrasive" HF touch was added (the same type I always hear on my recordings). The DAV sample sounded almost 100% identical with the original. There was maybe just some very tiny marginal 0,1% loss (probably attributed to DA AD path), very microscopical ...

I assume the chain for doing this was DAW source (digital) -> Lavry in -> Lavry out (analogue) -> Millennia in -> Millennia out -> Lavry in -> Lavry out (digital) -> DAW. Right? That being the case, I'm inclined to trust the Lavry to be less "colourful" than the Millennia. This is something I've never tried, but might give a shot - sounds like an interesting discovery!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISedlacek
So, based on that (and my long time experience with HV-3) I would rather turn your comment in an opposite way. Comparing to DAV, HV-3 seems to exaggerate some HF. Which on the first hearing may seem more impressive (including the "soundstage" as Douglas mentioned), but we are talking about a faithful rendering, aren´t we ? I would much prefer to add a pleasant EQ later if needed ...

I wonder if this exaggerated HF could be why classical engineers like the HV-3 so much? Distant mic'ing will often be used in this genre and the extra HF would only be putting back what's lost through distance from source. Hmmm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISedlacek
As for Douglas´comment about the wider HV-3 soundstage , it is an interesting question. I am not sure about it. I rather feel that this feeling may come from the added HF and if there is some slightly larger soundstage, I feel that the extra width is somehow borrowed from the depth ...

Based on your clips, and my own experience of the HV-3, this is an area where it excels - imaging. There is a pinpoint reach-out-and-grab-the-instrument realism to HV-3 recordings that I love. I don't think an extra bit of HF could be all that's responsible for this - There must be something else going on. Slew rate, maybe?

ISedlacek 18th March 2006 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalstudio
I wonder if this exaggerated HF could be why classical engineers like the HV-3 so much? Distant mic'ing will often be used in this genre and the extra HF would only be putting back what's lost through distance from source. Hmmm.

Well, if so, using HV-3 for close miking in the studio (this is what I do most of the time) would be like using Schoeps MK2S for the same purpose ... which would not be the best thing ...
My first Schoeps omnis were MK2H ... Within one day I returned them and begged at Schoeps to change them for MK2 ... Not suitable for studio recordings ... too sharp ...

Having both standalone HV-3 and HV-3 on a pair of Origins, I must stay that surprisingly they do not sound the same ... HV-3 on Origins does not have that sharp edge, but on the other hand sounds a bit more veiled .. (but not due to missing that edge) ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by naturalstudio
Based on your clips, and my own experience of the HV-3, this is an area where it excels - imaging. There is a pinpoint reach-out-and-grab-the-instrument realism to HV-3 recordings that I love. I don't think an extra bit of HF could be all that's responsible for this - There must be something else going on. Slew rate, maybe?

I am not sure about it. Those few spontaneous samples are neither perfect, nor representative ... I tried more, of course (but have no time to upload) ..
From what I tried, I feel, that DAV is quite faithful in all the respects ... I have not tried any orchestra etc. recordings, but those who use DAV for that, do not complain ... I would say, when already within the high end equipment, it is rather a matter of taste ...



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