String quartet recording for CD, film and theater

[Sheikyearbouti]

Dear Slutz,

I know that there are plenty of threads on the topic (I went trough all of them), but I want to address a few more specific questions.

The reasons for this are a few. First, it is a very highly regarded formation and the session is important for my reputation Secondly, the music is going to be used for a CD, video and a few theatrical performances with live electronics done in Max MSP and live miked soprano. Thus the composer wants to have enough flexibility for the post. Saying this, for the video he is NOT going for surround. However, for the theatrical performance a strange quadraphonic system + back speakers will be used (still not clarified). The latter will be decided later on when the venue is available for rehearsals!

The quartet is a standard formation with 2 x violins, viola and cello. All I know so far for the music is that it is contemporary (despite of how vague this is... I will see the score in a few weeks time though).
The place will be a church in London, which apparently has great acoustics and not much traffic noise. I will visit it in a few weeks time.

I will have 10ch of Grace + True Systems preamps + a great selection of mics (Schopes - MK2, 2s, 2h, 21, 4, 5, 8; DPA 4006, 4011, Sennheiser MKH 8040, 8050, 20, 30, 40; Neumann TLM 170, 193, U89, 87, KM83, 84... etc.). As for the mics - I don't have all of these but can rent any of them. Even more options are available.

My intention is to have:
• main pair (perhaps MK2 on a Jecklin disk if the church sounds as good as described)
• hall pair (not too sure, perhaps more directional mics? Last time I used 2 x MKH8040 a few meters away from the main pair pointed at the back of a cathedral and the results were great)
• spot for each instrument

So here are my questions:
• How would you position the players? Looking at their videos on youtube I can see that 80% of the time for non-concert recordings they are in a full-circle (or square). Perhaps they prefer to perform in this way. I will address this question to them asap. However, I think that it would be easier to record them if they are in a semi-circle.
• Which mics would you choose for spots and in what polar pattern? Bear in mind that these guys are really good players and this is not a concert performance. I don't mind doing the job with two mics + cello spot but the spots will be there for flexibility and even maybe for creative purposes (rather than balance) - remember quadro and a theater... So perhaps I don't need very directional mics? Maybe wide cards and omnis?

I will try to post a sample once the recording is done. I was told, however, that this will be possible only after Feb next year when the project will be released.

Your help is sincerely appreciated.
Cheers.

[John Willett]

Hi Nikolay,

What's the venue? IE: Which church is it?

And I think you should send a PM of this to 0VU as he is the expert in this field.

I would normally approach something like this by letting the musicians sit positioned so as to get the best performance - IE: what they are most happy with - and then try to capture the performance with as simple an array as possible.

But being a video makes it different........

[boojum]

^^^^^^^ That's great advice. If I were smart enough I would have offered that, too.

[Sheikyearbouti]

Hi John and boojum,

Thanks for the replies.

I will know about the preference of the formation regarding placement soon. So it probably is a bit early to speculate on this. The good news is that I will not have any limitations about mic placement - best possible sound is a priority.

When I said that the music will be used for film I guess I had to clarify a bit better... There will be some cameras during the session but I think that it will be more about "the making of...". It will be the music which will go onto some short interpretation of an old film (25min).

As to the church all I know is that apparently it is in Finchley and that the formation has done quite a few recordings there. Some background noise has been reported but as well great acoustics suitable for such projects.
If everything is as planed I should see the venue this Saturday.

[Sheikyearbouti]

OK, so the church is All Saint's in East Finchley (close to the tube station - iaiks - I have had troubles with the underground in other places before!). From what I can see on google street view it seems like a relatively quiet residential place but definitely with some cars passing by now and then.

BTW, the composer insists to have a spot on every instrument. So it is not going to work with "as simple an array as possible". And for the quadro I do need some hall mics... so this means at least 8 mics.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Sheikyearbouti

OK, so the church is All Saint's in East Finchley (close to the tube station - iaiks - I have had troubles with the underground in other places before!). From what I can see on google street view it seems like a relatively quiet residential place but definitely with some cars passing by now and then.

BTW, the composer insists to have a spot on every instrument. So it is not going to work with "as simple an array as possible". And for the quadro I do need some hall mics... so this means at least 8 mics.

Spots on every instrument sounds horrible to me.

Given this situation, I would mic. Up as simple as possible - IE: stereo pair plus a few extra.

This is the ideal rig.

I would then do as requested and spot every instrument. Hopefully these won't be needed, but you will have all the tracks in case you do need them.

Just have one track per mic. And don't mix anything on the day.


Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Spots on every instrument sounds horrible to me.

That seems a rather rash judgement given all the unknowns about the music and the context in which it will be used and heard.

You might find out whether the spot mic'ing needs to be contact mic'ing or if something like hypercardioids used from below or above. That may be determined by factors as varied as whether and how the material may be electronically manipulated or what the video people have to say about the thing. Knowing that will save you some time and effort.

See if you can draw out more information from the composer-and find out who is really in charge. That's important. Is the composer the producer?

[Sheikyearbouti]

Sound first, video second. So I can put mics wherever I want to.
The composer is on top of everything. Sound-wise (strings only) I will be the producer (if it is correct to say that). But yes, it's all up to me. I know: I need more info. I am working on this.
An e-mail regarding their positioning was sent already but the reply might take a while. I'll see the church next Thursday.

What I am thinking is that if those guys play in square (and don't like the semi-circle scenario), I will need a tall stand to put above them (2 x violins & viola...). But how to spot them?
If the place is very reverberant I might have to be forced to go for cardioid main pair so that I can put it higher and in this way have some distance between the spots and it.

The strings won't be manipulated electronically. But they might be panned in quadro however!!! (talking about the theatrical performance, not CD - there hopefully I won't use spots).

This makes me think that omni or wide-cards as spots are a better idea.

In the past I have had very good results with MK21 on violin. And I have had horrible results with MKH50 with a moving and passionate violinist )
(maximum separation requested by customer + no 4060s available).
I guess same would work great for viola and cello, but I am happy to hear any suggestions.

[Jim vanBergen]

I understand John's concern as the pure approach and classical is best served by a really well positioned matched pair. That rarely translates for edited picture, thanks to MTV.

I think your concept to have multiple matched pairs and spots, all individually tracked, is ideal for post mixing. For the spot mics however, you want to isolate instruments so I'd be very careful with omni or wide cardioids, unless you have some level of baffling.

For the post production element of mixing for video, being able to have those spots to isolate an instrument in the mix is VERY important. I'd choose the best stereo pair as the main mix and see if you have to add elements. For me personally, I'd ALSO make a second mix of just the spot mics for myself, and see how that blends (or doesn't) given the room and configuration.

Track as much as possible, mix as little as possible on the tracking session, and keep your options for post once the picture edit is done.

Good luck, let us know how it works out!

[klaukholm]

4006 for room mics
4006 main pair
mk2h outriggers

mk21 (or better mk22) spots on each player quite close
Alternatively MK8 capsules could give you a very natural sound and good isolation if used well

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

4006 for room mics
4006 main pair
mk2h outriggers

mk21 (or better mk22) spots on each player quite close
Alternatively MK8 capsules could give you a very natural sound and good isolation if used well

All that? On a string quartet? What about finding a nice room instead?

[aracu]

All those room mics and omnis would sound bad unless recorded in the very best of spaces. For bad or mediocre spaces I would try to negate the sound of the room and go for good imaging with a close coincident pair.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

All that? On a string quartet? What about finding a nice room instead?

David, I hate the disease of composers asking for "control" more than anyone.


The room is a good one acording to the OP, and he asked for suggestions for room mics and spots for each player. I think room mics are redundant in a church, in fact I never use them unless it is 5.1.

Four spots for a quartet and main pair with wides is not really a lot of mics for a contemporary piece.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by aracu

All those room mics and omnis would sound bad unless recorded in the very best of spaces. For bad or mediocre spaces I would try to negate the sound of the room and go for good imaging with a close coincident pair.

Four main omnis, LS RS and wide cards or fig8 spots, you are really of the opinion you cant make that sound good?

[Sheikyearbouti]

Hi all,

Thanks for the comments. I had to postpone the inspection of the place a bit. I will see it this Thursday. Than I am going to learn a bit more about the music and the use of spots in quadro during the theatrical performance. I think that, on the contrary from what I thought initially, all spots might be processed individually! As well it looks like that the quadro setup has some sort of special concept behind it... So I will update the post with the relevant information asap.

Thanks

[Roland]

Hi, I am sure that I have recorded or worked in this place and if my memory serves me correctly, acoustically it's not bad.

A couple of observations; I would obviously have a main pair, Jenklin disc should work well, either 4006's or Schoepes MK 2's. In addition I would spot all the instruments, but not too close, it may be because they want it for a theatrical performance you may need a closer sound than would normally be used for a classical release.

As for seating arrangements I would let them set up as they would normally sit, this will make the players feel much more comfortable and you will likely get a better performance, this in itself will have more impact on the sound than moving the mic's or using different microphones!

Hall ambient mics might be an option, however, my experience of recording in London locations would suggest that traffic and subway noise may render these unusable, even so I would set up a pair (omni's I recommend) and have a listen when you get back to base and make your decision then.

Roland

[didier.brest]

Recorded at 96kHz 24 bit on the Skywalker Sound scoring stage using a matched pair of Sanken CO-100K microphones.

[aracu]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Four main omnis, LS RS and wide cards or fig8 spots, you are really of the opinion you cant make that sound good?

This is an ok approach to recording in the best of spaces. Other than that, I honestly don't think it is a very good approach. Just an opinion. Of course someone can make it or a lot of other possibilities work.

How many rooms do omnis work well in?

Why are all those spots necessary? If the imaging of the mic arrays is
working well, how can it be improved with spot mics? Are you trying to balance the volume levels of a string quartet with spot mics? Can you improve the timbre of the string quartet instruments with spot mics?

[klaukholm]

Once you have done your first score you will see that there are times when extreme control of sections is needed and appropriate.
The OP is describing a scenario that is different from a cd release and as such has different requirements.

The two mics is all you need doctrine does not always work in the real world

[Sheikyearbouti]

Hey, I would love to do it with two mics only but in this case I don't think it will be possible. As I said I'll know more towards the end of the week.

[0VU]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Once you have done your first score you will see that there are times when extreme control of sections is needed and appropriate.
The OP is describing a scenario that is different from a cd release and as such has different requirements.

The two mics is all you need doctrine does not always work in the real world

Very well said!

Having just read this thread all through, I don't understand the dogmatism and implied superiority coming across in the repeated assertions that anyone suggesting that more than a single stereo pair is needed for this job is somehow clueless/lacking in understanding of how a string quartet sounds or how to do the job.

From the initial question, right through the thread, the OP has strongly suggested that this isn't a straight 'classical' job. Whilst in the appropriate circumstances a single pair is surely a great way to approach recording a string quartet - and may yet turn out to be the best approach in this case - there are very good reasons why these may not be those circumstances and it might not be the best, let alone, as some seem to imply, only way to do this job.

On the information given so far, it could need anything from a single pair to a full-on multitrack approach with clip-on mics, room mics, surround arrays, etc.. Or perhaps multiple simultaneous parallel recordings e.g. a properly set up pair optimised for the stereo CD recording, some kind of close/clip-on rig for what sounds like it might be an 'installation'/'concept' theatrical production possibly via surround PA and perhaps a more 'conventional' surround setup for a video. Or some kind of hybrid setup which can deliver enough flexibility to be mixed in as many different ways as are needed here.

Before attempting to suggest ways to tackle this job, I'd want quite a lot more information. And I wouldn't yet rule out anything, or dig at other people's suggestions that a string quartet (even in a 'classical' context) could conceivably need more than a pair of omnis in a nice room. It's not always four experienced and talented people playing music designed to blend acoustically and be heard by a bunch of people sitting in front of them with no other point of visual or aural focus. And the required result might not be just a CD intended to sound like the most natural possible representation of a performance in a real space from the perspective of the 'best seat in the house'. What happens if the person calling the shots has in mind a 'concept' of being able individually to pan each part around the surround sound on the video and perhaps process each part through it's own set of FX with a mixture of real and artificial ambience. And wants to present the same in a theatre with seating in the round and a big surround system prone to feeding back? And needs to produce a stereo downmix of the same for CD. I've had to do this and a stereo pair in a room, however perfect, just doesn't deliver!


On a side note, All Saints E. Finchley is frequently used as a recording venue and I've worked there quite often. Whilst it wouldn't necessarily be my first choice for a 'classical' string quartet session (can be a bit noisy but to some extent that's just the luck of the draw), it's a nice sounding space with good access, enough comfort facilities, and a fair bit of flexibility in the acoustics and there are far worse venues in London. In this case it might work out well. See how it goes on the recce and with your discussions with the composer/producer. Just keep an open mind.

[aracu]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

The two mics is all you need doctrine does not always work

I agree, but I also think that a doctrine of "use four omnis and four spots" is also an unrealistic doctrine, because omnis don't tend to work well in most halls, and the four spots could further complicate the situation. As a side note, having spots on a string quartet can be mildly uncomfortable for the players, limiting their "space" somewhat.

[klaukholm]

It is my humble opinion that a professional engineer should be able to make omnis work under normal conditions
I am not saying there are not other good ways to do this, there are many ways to go about this, but you insist that a highly standard setup is impossible under most conditions.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Once you have done your first score you will see that there are times when extreme control of sections is needed and appropriate.
The OP is describing a scenario that is different from a cd release and as such has different requirements.

The two mics is all you need doctrine does not always work in the real world

I'm with you on this one!

[Sheikyearbouti]

Hi,

Thanks for the great replies. And yes indeed, I will have to keep an open mind for this one! I will really need that.

Today I saw the place and took some measurements/photos. But more importantly - I spoke to the composer.

So to start with the most important thing first - I might have to do a mix which relies mostly on spots! Yes. The reason for this is that this is not going to be a classical thing at all. Well, yes and no.

The composer will need to have all instruments on separate channels and will be processing them individually. This may include pitchshifting, real time sampling and processing with delays, saturation, modulation, etc. Sometimes that will be done with all instruments, sometime on individual tracks. All this will happen in Max MSP.

On top of this, all 4 instruments will probably be panned into individual speaks in quadro and later on I will have to record a soprano for the CD (which will be processed as well). The latter will be performed live in the theater.

The theater itself is a very small and long room with low ceiling and no stage at all. The actual performance will take place in the centre of the room, so this means that there will be two mirrored sets of speakers in quadro on both sides of the room and two mirrored sets of seats looking at each other. On both sides there will be not more than 40 seats. 12 consecutive shows for a small audience.. Yes, it will be a very esoteric event

So sorry if I have misled you with not providing enough information but I really wasn't expecting things to be in this way.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For me now the question changes to: how to track the quartet so that I can build a good mix mostly relying on spots and have a good sound overall without depending too much on the main pair?

I will have a main pair of course. As for the spots, the first thing that comes to my mind is to use stereo spots. But for quartet?

Regarding spill, the composer said that it would be fine to have some. So maybe at least I can go for wide cardiods and retain some sense of space? Another option would be to use fig8s (as someone suggested) and try pointing the null side towards the rest of the group (while keeping as much distance to the instruments as possible).

One more thing. Artificial reverberation might be used during the mix as a part of the concept of the composition (maybe even with automation). The composer really doesn't want a lot of it in the recording. The good news is that this church doesn't sound much like a church. It has a wide carpeted area and a wooden floor and ceiling. My thought was to take a few different IRs from the place so that I can retain some coherence.

Thanks again for the help and please let's not turn this thread in to arena of different recording concepts. The job dictates the approach and I will have to stick to this.

All the best

[klaukholm]

Renting tlm170 or U89 may be a thought as the 5 patterns may come in handy. In this case, get solid stands with counterweighted booms so you have good placement options.

Good figure8 options are royer SF1 ribbons (not the 121 IMO) , RCA44bx or schoeps mk8 (or ccm8)
Remember the RCA is incredibly heavy and not very easy to place over a player unless you have a very heavy duty boomstand.

All of the above mics should be easy to rent.

Considering the situation you may consider spacing out the quartet a little to get some separation with an emphasis on a little.

You could probably do this gig with 4 royer sf1 and a pair of DPA 4006 and/or the MKH800 multipattern.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

<snip>

Good figure8 options are royer SF1 ribbons (not the 121 IMO) , RCA44bx or schoeps mk8 (or ccm8)

<snip>

Klaus, why use a Fig 8 instead of a cardioid here? I don't understand why you choose this mic.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by boojum

Kjetil, why use a Fig 8 instead of a cardioid here?

A fig8 may be a problem depending on how reverberant the space is.
However, when looking straigth down they isolate supremely towards the other three players. A cardioid will isolate less to the adjacent player, so little in fact that I would rather use a wide cardioid closer and get a better sound.
The figure 8 will get no direct sound from the other three and the leakage will be purely ambient, which IMO is fine and even desireable. cardioids will have varying degrees of direct leakage,
I generally feel fig8 and omnis are a much more natural sound than cardioids.
for this gig I personally would go in with a good collection of mics and be ready to change fast if things do not work in real life like they did in my head (happens a lot...)

[Sheikyearbouti]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

A fig8 may be a problem depending on how reverberant the space is.
However, when looking straigth down they isolate supremely towards the other three players. A cardioid will isolate less to the adjacent player, so little in fact that I would rather use a wide cardioid closer and get a better sound.
The figure 8 will get no direct sound from the other three and the leakage will be purely ambient, which IMO is fine and even desireable. cardioids will have varying degrees of direct leakage,
I generally feel fig8 and omnis are a much more natural sound than cardioids.
for this gig I personally would go in with a good collection of mics and be ready to change fast if things do not work in real life like they did in my head (happens a lot...)

Yeap. I share the same ideas about fig8s. Since I have plenty of stereo bars I even though about using small bars with spaced pairs of fig8s. But maybe that will be a bit too much...
As well clapping in the hall revealed that there is an obvious (not too long) verb tail coming either from the back or the front of the church depending on where one is. So addressing the null side towards the other players and the sides of the hall could actually work well, especially since the composer wants less echo.

But again as you said - what one has in his head doesn't always work in reality. Thus I lean towards Schopes while renting different capsules for flexibility.

The other thing is that I don't want to go for 4 ribbons. Perhaps for the cello only. The reason is that the music could be on the aggressive side (according to my customer).

I could get Royers or RCA but their price in London is quite high compared to Schoeps. As well I have had problems with mics from that particular rental company that has them and I really don't want to go that route.

I wonder what do you guys think of Coles 4038 on cello. Another option is the new Audio-Technica AT4080. I have used it as a piano spot and it sounded very nice with a very big low end. I even found a sample of a cello here but as it is a video file the quality is not great.

[klaukholm]

Your thought of schoeps with extra capsules sounds like a good plan.