big band live recording...

[pkautzsch]

...in a medium size club, only solo and pno on the PA system.
what do you slutz think about different approaches:
(A) close-miking every instrument, including clip-on mics for brass & winds (and some of them changing their instruments - so four mics per player...), plus at least 2 audience mics
(B) close-miked piano, bass, gtr, solo - 3 mic drum setup (2OH/BD) - 2 or 3 for saxes&woods, 2 for four trombones, 2 for four trumpets - room/audience mic
(C) borrowed from classical: main mic setup plus a few spots (pno, gtr, bs, bd, solo, sub-main pair for the whole brass&wind section)
(D) borrowed from hardcore classical: main mic plus sub-main pair for rhythm section plus sub-main pair for brass&wind

Just for thought. No need to have THE ONE AND ONLY setup by tomorrow morning ;)

[Remoteness]

I'd go with plan (B) with at least two room mics and also borrow from plans (C) & (D) a bit... I like options. It keeps me in the safety zone.


During the IAJE convension in NYC this past January we recorded and broadcasted the WDR Big Band with Paquito D'Rivera for a live broadcast to Germany. We did it a bit different than mentioned above. Did anyone in Germany hear the live radio broadcast from IAJE?

We had 39 inputs going to PT HD & DTRS as backup to the PT HD rig. Our stereo feeds were leaving our truck via ISDN lines to Germany...

DATE: 01/14/06
VENUE & LOCATION: Sheraton – Metropolis Ballroom, NYC, NY
EVENT: Live recording & Broadcast
CLIENT: WDR Big Band
ARTIST: WDR Big Band
PRODUCER: Lucas Schmid
ENGINEER: Thomas Sehringer
EIC: Steve Remote
2nd ENGINEERS: Jon D’Uva, Rob Carvell & Adam Kushner
ISDN ENGINEER: Duke Markos
============================================= ============

================= TRACK ASSIGNMENTS ========================

01 KICK
02 SNARE
03 HIGH HAT
04 TOM LO
05 TOM HI
06 OH L
07 OH R
08 PERC L
09 PERC R
10 GTR
11 BASS DI
12 BASS MIC
13
14 RHODES
15 RHODES
16 PIANO LO
17 PIANO HI
18 SOLO SAX / CLARINET
19 SOLO BONE
20 ANNOUNCE
21 TRUMPET
22 TRUMPET
23 TRUMPET
24 TRUMPET
25 TRUMPET
26 TROMBONE
27 TROMBONE
28 TROMBONE
29 TROMBONE
30 SAXOPHONES
31 SAXOPHONES
32 SAXOPHONES
33 SAXOPHONES
34 SAXOPHONES
35 EUPHONIUM
36 EUPHONIUM
37 ROOM HL
38 ROOM HLC
39 ROOM HRC
40 ROOM HR

Here's the stage plot from our location file...

[Jim vanBergen]

Option B- looks best, easiest, and most likely to be consistent to me!
Stands with a dynamic mic (original Senn 421, beyer M88 or M69, SM58s, etc) for your reeds/brass; I'd try to do TWO stereo pairs of room mics- one close to the stage, one mid or far depending on size of room...

lastly I prefer a 3-mic drum kit setup, K/S/OH....especially for those tunes where you need to get more from the snare from BRUSH work! Just something to consider.

Hope this helps-
JvB

[pkautzsch]

oh yes, right. forgot completely about jazz drummers' brushes.

so you had actually one mic per instrument at WDR big band, plus the rhythm section stuff. didn't hear it...but I'm quite sure it will be on radio some other day.
thx for that most informative post, steve.

any other comments? :)

[inlinenl]

Big-band sound is great ... once i did a session with lot's of earth wind and fire tracks .... POWER !!!!

also depends on budget and time to set-up ...... ( but it's tempting to put in a lot off mikes .... BEHAVE YOURSELF !!! )

if you have time enough ... for test and setup go with the combination of a great main pair .. and a few extra mic's ... for the solo instr. and the guitar/bass and drums ....

great to be able to put some kick/ bottom in the mix next to the main-stereo pair ...

I used once a DPA set i ( A-B ) into a tubetech pre-amp and into a junger converter ... great stereo-image .... depends on the room ...

Don't make it to difficult if there's no time for setup and soundcheck ...


Greetings ...

wim.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

oh yes, right. forgot completely about jazz drummers' brushes.

so you had actually one mic per instrument at WDR big band, plus the rhythm section stuff. didn't hear it...but I'm quite sure it will be on radio some other day.
thx for that most informative post, steve.

any other comments? :)

If you only have three mics available for drums, what JvB said makes a lot of sense.

Four mics would be best of both worlds -- Foot, Snare & Two Overheads.

[gko]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

We had 39 inputs going to PT HD & DTRS as backup to the PT HD rig. Our stereo feeds were leaving our truck via ISDN lines to Germany...

Steve,

Would you normaly favor the close mics or the main stereo pair?
And do you compensate for time delay between the close mics and the stereo pair?

thanx Gertjan

[Remoteness]

I'm not only a recording engineer but a mixer too. I like to have the control of individual mics. I keep them close but, not that close. I like to keep some air in between the musician and the mic.

I do appreciate the advantages of main stereo pairs -- If I had a choice -- I would want them both... I want my cake and want to eat it too.

[henryrobinett]

Steve, that layout was awesome. Thanks for sharing. Makes me feel like I'm not doing things completely WRONG al the time - at least for what I'm trying to go for, not necessarily the results! Meaning I'm not Steve Remote, not even remotely!

[smarsland]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

DATE: 01/14/06
VENUE & LOCATION: Sheraton – Metropolis Ballroom, NYC, NY
EVENT: Live recording & Broadcast
CLIENT: WDR Big Band
ARTIST: WDR Big Band
PRODUCER: Lucas Schmid
ENGINEER: Thomas Sehringer
EIC: Steve Remote
2nd ENGINEERS: Jon D’Uva, Rob Carvell & Adam Kushner
ISDN ENGINEER: Duke Markos
============================================= ============

================= TRACK ASSIGNMENTS ========================

01 KICK
02 SNARE
03 HIGH HAT
04 TOM LO
05 TOM HI
06 OH L
07 OH R
08 PERC L
09 PERC R
10 GTR
11 BASS DI
12 BASS MIC
13
14 RHODES
15 RHODES
16 PIANO LO
17 PIANO HI
18 SOLO SAX / CLARINET
19 SOLO BONE
20 ANNOUNCE
21 TRUMPET
22 TRUMPET
23 TRUMPET
24 TRUMPET
25 TRUMPET
26 TROMBONE
27 TROMBONE
28 TROMBONE
29 TROMBONE
30 SAXOPHONES
31 SAXOPHONES
32 SAXOPHONES
33 SAXOPHONES
34 SAXOPHONES
35 EUPHONIUM
36 EUPHONIUM
37 ROOM HL
38 ROOM HLC
39 ROOM HRC
40 ROOM HR

Steve... could you mention what mics you used on each player? i.e. bari sax, etc...

thx
s

[Don S]

I just did one of these. Why not both? I like the idea of keeping it simple. A pair to get the bones and trumpets. Then split the lead brass mics going to the PA. Even the drums and bass.
The amount of PA bleed on stage will tell you which pattern to use.
Good luck!

[roonsbane]

I just finished a big band recording two hours ago. I love a 4006 on drum overheads along with a kick mic and snare mic. I love that you can place it exactly where you want in the stereo image. And everything will be there. I dont personally dig stereo overheads panned wide on big band drums, though I used to before I tried the 4006. The issue is always getting a clean base since the bass player will always want to be right next to the drummer. I use plexiglass when possible. The bass will always have loads of drums in it. I find dealing with the phase issues on the ride cymbals is perhaps the most difficult thing about doing these gigs. I often do mics on all saxes, since they all solo. Royer 121's on piano with nulls to drums, Bass mic and di, Guitar mic. Solo mic, announce mic, 2 audience schoeps MK41's hanging over there heads, 2 mics spread out in the trumpets and same on bones. Tonight though, I replaced those with my new SF24 just behind the sax section looking down on bones behind them and trumpets behind them. Both on risers. It was mostly nice though not always perfectly ballanced among themselves. Whenever possible I would want to cover my ass with individual mics on the brass. It really depends on the band. I have mixed the count basie band live a few times and those dudes can ballance themseves. This is not the case most of the time.

[larsfarm]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

I love a 4006 on drum overheads along with a kick mic and snare mic. I love that you can place it exactly where you want in the stereo image.

Wouldn't an omni above the drums also pick up a lot of trumpets and a lot of bass? Or is that not a problem? Where would you place this one omni?

Originally Posted by roonsbane

2 mics spread out in the trumpets and same on bones

I'm far from a professional, but still had the oportunity to record a bigband (not quite basie like...) recently. My intention was to have two on trumpets and two on trombones, but I had to give each trombone their own because of the way they pointed their instruments and because of their music stands. Two trumpets per mic worked fine. I found that having options afterwards is a good thing (even if it means more hours mixing).

Lars

[roonsbane]

Originally Posted by larsfarm

Wouldn't an omni above the drums also pick up a lot of trumpets and a lot of bass? Or is that not a problem? Where would you place this one omni?

I'm far from a professional, but still had the oportunity to record a bigband (not quite basie like...) recently. My intention was to have two on trumpets and two on trombones, but I had to give each trombone their own because of the way they pointed their instruments and because of their music stands. Two trumpets per mic worked fine. I found that having options afterwards is a good thing (even if it means more hours mixing).





Lars

It is definetley usable trumpet leakage with a mic like a 4006. Bass leakage has never been an issue unless the bass player has turned their amp way up and the drummer has requested tons of bass in the monitor. Even then I have made it work. Try over the drummers head about 3 and half feet above the kit pointing straight down, favoring the ride cymbal just a bit.

[Remoteness]

The original input list and microphone request was different from what we ended up using for the live concert and ISDN broadcast to Germany.

You will find WDR engineer, Thomas Sehringer's original input sheet below. The mics in parenthases are the mics I know for sure that we ended up using. I will updated this list when I get more information from my associates. I do remember that the horn section ended up with a lot of Sennhesier and Beyer mics. The Sound Company handled all the mics and DIs on stage except for a the few that we supplied. More to come in a short while...

01 KICK -- SM91
02 SNARE -- SM57
03 HIGH HAT -- KM84
04 TOM LO -- SM98
05 TOM HI -- SM98
06 OH L -- MK4
07 OH R -- MK4
08 PERC L -- RE20
09 PERC R -- RE20
10 GTR -- SM58
11 BASS DI -- (DI)
12 BASS MIC -- TLM170 (TLM103)
13
14 RHODES -- (DI)
15 RHODES -- (DI)
16 PIANO LO -- MK4
17 PIANO HI -- MK4
18 SOLO SAX / CLARINET -- C414 (TLM103)
19 SOLO BONE -- TLM170 (TLM103)
20 ANNOUNCE -- SM58
21 TRUMPET -- TLM170 (M88)
22 TRUMPET -- TLM170 (M88)
23 TRUMPET -- TLM170 (M88)
24 TRUMPET -- TLM170 (M88)
25 TRUMPET -- TLM170 (M88)
26 TROMBONE -- U89 (M88)
27 TROMBONE -- U89 (M88)
28 TROMBONE -- U89 (M88)
29 TROMBONE -- U89 (M88)
30 SAXOPHONES -- RE20 (MD421)
31 SAXOPHONES -- RE20 (MD421)
32 SAXOPHONES -- RE20 (MD421)
33 SAXOPHONES -- RE20 (MD421)
34 SAXOPHONES -- RE20 (MD421)
35 EUPHONIUM -- (SM98)
36 EUPHONIUM -- (SM98)
37 ROOM HL -- (MKH416)
38 ROOM HLC -- (MKH416)
39 ROOM HRC -- (MKH416)
40 ROOM HR -- (MKH416)

[FunkFaker]

I'm on the option (b) band-wagon.

I find that Big Bands usually balance very well to themselves, and being in a small club, I think some spot mics on each section along with a set of room mics should make your task easier, and still sound great.

Good luck and post some clips if you get the chance.

Tommy

[pkautzsch]

Thanks a lot again for the input.

Actually, the stuff is materializing and will probably be done in the second half of may.
And, as it is with musicians ;), they don't have a lot of money for hiring stuff. I'm not quite sure now about using my SDCs (Neumann, Schoeps, MBHO) on all the brass & wind. Could be just too many "room mics".
So I was thinking about ribbons. They somehow seem to be a secret weapon for saxes and trumpets, as I understand all the guys who are so nice as to share their experiences here. Never had the opportunity to use ribbons so far...
It would mean hiring mics for about 6 saxes (that may also be flutes for some tunes - another good reason for ribbon probably?), 4 trombones, 4 trumpets.
Oh, and the miking will only be for the recording - only piano and solo will go to the PA.
I'm of course not looking for a cooking recipe, just a few thoughts of some guys who have done big bands with ribbons.

EDIT: Oh, I just saw this is my 100th post here :)

[mspence@mac.com]

Hi All,

I had big fun a couple years ago recording the Les Brown Orchestra in a beautiful 2500 seat proscenium theatre for a seven camera television shoot. I used stereo pairs of Shure and A-T on the trumpets and Bones, and several 414's on saxes and a U47 on the bari sax. For drums, I threw everything at them, just to have options later, and ended up using predominately overheads and kick in the mix, with just a touch of the tom mics for definition. Bass was an upright that I took direct and also mic'ed the amp, and the piano was just a pair of cheap AKG's. (All I had left...) However, the piano was a gorgeous sounding 9 foot Yamaha, and sounded superb. The band very much mixes themselves, and they know mic technique when it comes to solos, etc. Surprisingly, leakage was very minimal, and what leakage there was worked very well in conveying a sense of space in the overall sound. Careful panning really helps. We recorded using this setup for several days, and also recorded some vocalists with them, such as Pat and Debbie Boone, and Glen Campbell. With Glen we added his guitar amp and a Kurzweill, and I recorded the first few songs with the U47 on his vocals. The DP had a fit about the big 47 in Glen's face, but Glen loved the sound. However, Glen likes to move around alot, so later we went with a Beta 87 on his vocal. We had a 4 wedge 'ring' downstage for the vocalists, and they caused no problems for the recording at all. I equate Big Bands with Big Fun when it comes to recording them, and I'd love to do them again sometime. It's quite a buzz sitting in your control room with these guys coming out of your nearfields! Sorry about the pic quality, the stage was pretty dark when thse were taken....:-(

Later,

Michael Spence
justpushplay Remote Recording Services
www.justpushplayav.com

[mspence@mac.com]

more pics....

[pkautzsch]

wow, thanks for those pics. I think one can clearly see where the mics are pointing. Si I was right in my plans for bones and pets. Still worrying about saxes though, but I'll make up something in more than one month. Did you have all the mics in cardioid, or were there fig-8s (eg. the 414s)?

[Remoteness]

Here I go again...

For those whom have linkage clickitis...

[mspence@mac.com]

Oops, sorry about the pic links, Steve. Proof that you can't fix stupid...:-) Anyhow, yes, all the mics were in cardioid, and once the players were seated, I moved the sax mics in a bit closer, especially the bari sax, which seemingly didn't project as much as the other saxes. I just tried to keep a mic somewhat in front of each pair of players, and relied upon them to get their own blend. Fortunately, these were all good players, and it worked quite well. I can see where individually micing each player would be an advantage, especially with less seasoned players, though. Les Brown Jr. is just a big lovable music fan, a really great guy, and he knows how to conduct these guys to make them sound like they are supposed to. Between him and their skill level, it made everything work really well.

Later,

Michael Spence
justpushplay Remote Recording Services
www.justpushplayav.com

[Remoteness]

No no no, there's no reason to be sorry my man! You can post your pictures any way you wish. There's nothing stupid about how you approached your upload management.

...And, thanks so much for posting your stuff. Very strong!

Yeah, and I hear you about musicianship and their skill level. IMO, an engineer is only as good as the musicians they keep.

[pkautzsch]

So after a meeting with the band leader we decided to use my own equipment as much as possible - they have serious money issues and thus won't rent anything as long as I have mics left...
We're going with SDC cardioids (Neumann 184 for saxes, MBHOs for bones, Schoeps MK4 for pets) and those Oktava and AT budget LDCs for solo and bass amp, and will have 3 mics for each 5 player section, plus a OH/BD/SN setup. I'll post about the results if that is wanted. Anybody done similar setups?

[chester]

hi!

this is a nice thread! anyone knows of good videos to look behind the scenes of big band recordings or maybe a book? i`m very interested in that too.

What if less is more ? What will you do with, lets say, only 8 mics in your package?

thanks for any comments.

greets chester

[tool]

Just a setup suggestion for bigband recorders

Although I have a small studio here's a bad pic taken with my cellphone.(taken tody)
This set up works very well.
I've done this on a regular basis now. There more bigbands coming now.

On the left to the wall are the saxophoneplayers with 421's on the tenors 57's on the alts and a 414 tl on the bari.
Opposite to the saxophones are the horns. trumpets standing against the wall and seated bones in front off them.
all of the horns recorded with a pair of 414 uls

grand piano is from where the picture is taken.

Drums behind the screen

left of the drums the double bass with DI and Re20

left from the drums is the guitarist with d.I

Singer is in the closet

Singer,Pianist and drummer have headphones.

director(middle) horns have a litlle floormonitor , a litlle basss,piano and guitar comes from that.

Every mic is pionted oppisite.


(I'm putting a setup together for location reording now.
This because a few jazzbands and bigbands asked me for this
Just picked up 2 2882's. I will used them on my powerbook running logic.
But I have trouble getting them work together.
Does anybody have a simular problem with this setup?)


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