Jazz at Lincoln Center, Wynton Marsalis and carrying the torch.

[boojum]

Tonight on the PBS evening news there was extended coverage of the work Wynton Marsalis does to keep jazz alive. There are others, some on this very board, who are carrying the message of America's great cultural gift: Jazz.

Here is the link: Wynton Marsalis Pays Homage to Jazz's Past by Investing in Its Future | PBS NewsHour | June 1, 2011 | PBS


Groove on!

[king2070lplaya]

I wish Roy Hargrove, Trombone Shorty, Nicholas Payton and Terence Blanchard would take that torch away from Wynton sometimes. But he's a talented dude and his trumpet looks way cooler than mine.

Ride on, King Wynton

[Greg Curtis]

Wynton is one of the most gifted musician that has ever lived. I've heard him play things that I, as a professional L.A. studio trumpet player did not think was possible, and I will never hear playing like his again. He was an inspiration to me as a student, and I love and respect his playing now as a grizzled veteran.

But he is not the torch-bearer that he thinks he is. His greatest liability is his ego.

[audibell]

Well, he, his brothers & Daddy are princes down here, very charitable with their time, modest & polite among the crowd after. A highly developed self-esteem is kind of necessary at that level of performance, it gets things done and it wouldn't be show biz without some show-boatin'. I've had the privilege of recording a couple of those names; their chops and the work it takes to keep them always inspire. Ride on, indeed.
BRgds,
WalterT

[hombre]

he may be charitable, he may have chops, and he may be looked upon as a prince in NO, but he destroyed an entire generation of musicians. he may the sweetest guy in the world or the most egotistical, i can't say cuz i don't know him. but it doesn't take a whole lot of listening to realize where his music is coming from. lots of guys have chops, lots of guys have egos and lots of guys are nice, but not a lot of people play with genuine feeling.

thankfully the damage has subsided and the newer generation players that escaped his shadow is expressing themselves with some honesty and genuine feeling.

i can't for the life of me imagine bud, bird and the 52nd street gang approving of wynton's playing.

[Remoteness]

Man, that's pretty rough and tough stuff, hombre...

You don't mince words, do you?

Perhaps, you can share a little information about yourself.
It would be interesting to know where you're coming from.

You have my curiosity peaked.

[charlienyc]

i admit i'm a saxophonist before i was an engineer and possibly a tiny bit partial because of it. however i think brother Branford demonstrates that yes, you can play anything, play it amazingly well and be one of the nicest, most down-to-earth people you could ever meet. i figure there are many other people in the Marsalis family that demonstrate those qualities. why can't Wynton follow suit?

cheers,
-charlie

[hombre]

let's see, i'm not sure if i can be any more clear. either you feel his music or you don't. i don't feel it. i'll listen to early miles, clifford brown, fats navarro, don ferrara, bix, louis, tony fruscella, roy eldridge, freddie hubbard, and scores of other lesser knowns and i will feel something that amounts to a deep jazz feeling. wynton just doesn't have a soul. the guy can play his ass off and his chops are ridiculous, but is it musical?

i just listened to his cherokee on youtube to refresh my memory of him, and yep, i aint missing anything. i can listen to a good track from any of the aforementioned dozens of times over and over, year after year and not get bored, not only that but feel nourished. wynton is a taker of energy in a nice suit with fast hands, great lungs, a huge repertoire, a great smile, a great gig, and lots of money.

i don't begrudge any musician for making money. louis made a lot of money but did it the right way.

does wynton have any of the feeling of his forebears? it's like he has expertly dissected the music and deliberately left out the main ingredient no matter how many 16ths he plays and at what tempo. he has led all of his many pupils and admirers completely down the wrong path.

i haven't diagnosed his problem yet precisely because i haven't spent much time listening to him, because every time i do i get a bad feeling. not that i need to go further than he has a lack of feeling or a wrong feeling. maybe he suffers from jack of all trades syndrome, where he has tried to be the king of bebop, the king of creole, the king of swing and the king of dixie but has failed? maybe it is his choice of musicians? maybe he had bad teachers? maybe he just never got it? if i had to guess right now i would say that he is more interested impressing than expressing.

some years ago i watched a pbs special with him and some proteges playing what is this thing called love. same problem, a complete lack of feeling, and the band was filled with cats just like him who had chops and ability and good time, but there was no music there.

his backup bands seem to be an exagerrated reflection of everything that is wrong with him. in that cherokee track on youtube the band was like a savante muzac jazz band, terrible lack of feeling all wrapped up in proper time and proper notes.

SQUARE

the staccato piano player just ruined the whole deal. maybe he shouldn't be playing with orchestral musicians on a blowing session, but find some soulful cats to enhance or at least not detract. and yes, a cat at his level should be able to pick proper musicians to play with.

when i was in the apple i could walk down to smalls on almost any given night and find better players... including wynton.

maybe it is a sign of the times where people have totally lost contact with the heart of music, and just cowtow to chops and ego and gear. can you imagine what bird would have said about a website called gearslutz?


but if i have to write lengthy posts on why you can't feel it, then it is a lost cause because this should be a visceral determination on your part.

[charlienyc]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Perhaps, you can share a little information about yourself.
It would be interesting to know where you're coming from.

You have my curiosity peaked.

although hombre didn't specifically address your question, Steve, it seems to be it's all about the music. fwiw as a jazz fan (centering on the 50s as my favorite era), i don't see much to disagree with the expressed views. what i'm not sure of is whether he's ruined anyone starting out in music. if he got someone (anyone!) interested in jazz who wouldn't otherwise be, i say that's great. take it a step further and apply it to music in general. if he influenced someone who wasn't interested in playing to play, i should keep my big mouth shut about his lack of anything.

you have to count your blessings: more people in this world understanding and appreciating music cannot be a bad thing. besides, all the people Wynton has influenced can now explore music further. they can (and probably will) go on to find someone who does play with heart.

[boojum]

There seem to be two threads here: Marsalis is helping keep jazz alive and Marsalis is arrogant and egotistical and has no soul.

FWIW, I saw him at Top of the Mark in SF about 25 years ago. I was amazed that he would just walk offstage when he was not playing. Ditto for the folks I was with who were also jazz fans. I am used to the musicians being on stage for the whole set and then splitting. I found it unsettling and somehow "wrong." Maybe it is me. He did not groove like the Adderlys, Mulligan, Rich, Monk and so many others I was lucky enough to see.

Still, he is doing some heavy lifting to keep jazz alive and we cannot deny that. Are there others? Yeah. But this guy grabs the public imagination, attention and bucks. We have to give him that.

Cheers

[audibell]

"but if i have to write lengthy posts on why you can't feel it, then it is a lost cause because this should be a visceral determination on your part."

Your line reminds me of reactions to Jackson Pollock's floor paintings, as one critic in his day described “mere unorganized explosions of random energy, and therefore meaningless.” Abstract expressionism in musical motion sounds too like screeching and brilliant but boring arpeggios of sound.

His technique combined the movement of his body, with flinging, dripping, pouring and spattering paint energetically around the canvas as if in a dance. Having spent some time in an art school, I never could get past the impression that this visual "chaos' was just that and I had to suffer the indignity of being told that if I didn't get it, it would be a waste of time to explain it to me. Huh?

People pay millions for his paintings but my visceral determination is just take 'em out of here. Figurative painting gets my attention, like my ear lobes swivel whenever I hear counterpoint in music, whether Palestrina or Jean J Loussier. Some actors look wooden and could be calling their lines in, others have some magic that's difficult to define. But not everyone sees or hears the same magic, nor should they be made to think they should.
WalterT

[king2070lplaya]

I don't want to generalize and say that he "doesnt have soul" or whatever, I don't even like saying that I don't like his playing because I have most of his cd's...... Maybe it's just heady and what strikes me the most in music is energy? I don't know. It's hard to put into words why, when I want to listen to some jazz trumpet, I never reach for a Wynton Marsalis cd.

It just lacks something, like his sound always makes you say "aw, yeah, cool, hip, that's really nice" but never makes you go "AW DANG HOLY MOTHER OF WHAT THE WHO THE MAN MY TROUSERS ARE ON FIRE??!?!?!" like Freddy Hubbard or Snooky Young or Clifford Brown, it doesn't have that crazy fire to it. But then it also never, even on ballads, makes you feel like "yeeeaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh", like when you listen to Roy Hargrove or or Donald Byrd or, well, Freddie Hubbard.

It's just some really well pulled off technical trumpet playing, but it's not necessarily moving, at least to me. It's like Clark Terry's sound took some mood-altering antidepressants and it's not able to emote very well anymore. So now it plays more 16th notes instead.

[ajfarber]

As it happens, I'm working with Wynton at Jazz @ Lincoln Center tonight. As you all know, he is just one of many jazz players who "carry the torch" for jazz education and jazz music in general. As the artistic director at Jazz @ Lincoln Center, he gets to mould the programme to suit his personal tastes and agenda. I think it's fair to say that we'd all do that in his position. Obviously, not every jazz fan or jazz musician is a fan of Wynton's playing or composing, but he does what he does at a high level of professionalism and integrity. He means every note that plays and writes and I think he makes for a great spokesman for the music. I have been his friend and colleague for almost 20 years and even I don't agree with or like everything he plays, writes or says. I will say that he is one of the most gifted musicians I've ever known and he's the hardest working person I know in and out of music.

I do wish that there more organisations like J@LC would spring up in other cities. The San Fransisco Jazz Collective is a smaller organisation that is now building there own performance space in SF. They are focused on more modern "science project" jazz. So there is variety out there.

[king2070lplaya]

Does he still think that fusion and funk music can't be jazz?

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya

Does he still think that fusion and funk music can't be jazz?

He used to play that stuff growing up in New Orleans. He might not consider it "jazz", I don't know how hung up an labels he is these days. Wynton respects good music, no matter the style or genre, as long as it's done with integrity on a high level. I know he dig's people as diverse as James Taylor and Willie Nelson. He loves tango music, Brazilian music, classical music, Cuban music and all kinds of other stuff. As far as jazz goes, he prefers it when there's a heavy blues feeling and swing. He writes stuff with other grooves as well.

A couple of months ago, Chick Corea was a guest with the JLCO. Wynton was knocked out and has been playing many of Chick's compositions on the road. He's more open minded than his history in the media would lead you to believe. Just last month he invited Eric Clapton to be his guest at the J@LC gala. He has respect and admiration for people on that level of musicianship.

[king2070lplaya]

That's whats up!

[Uncle Russ]

I met and talked to Louie, had lunch with Artie Shaw, and worked with a lot of jazz greats as a clarinetist. I have heard jazz change from an emotional music to one with an emphasis on cerebral and technical playing. Wynton is a heck of a trumpet player but I agree that his emphasis is more technical and, perhaps, academic than emotional.

Unfortunately (for people who feel or think as I do), that's just the way things have developed.

Most jazz aficionados seem to think Miles was great. I think he was good but overrated. When I had lunch with Artie Shaw I asked him about that. He agreed with me. That made me feel good, and maybe slightly vindicated, but so what?

This thread ultimately will amount to nothing more than some of us expressing our opinions. We won't change anything and certainly won't revitalize emotional jazz. We won't convince anyone that one opinion is somehow more correct than another.

Music always has been the child of fashion and style. If you ain't in style, you don't work much. Right now, emotional jazz ain't in style.

Okay?

[wesarvin]

Even though some of us may not like him, we can still learn many things from him. There aren't many people pushing jazz education to the effectiveness that Wynton has, and keeps jazz alive instead of dead or smelling funny.

[wesarvin]

Originally Posted by Uncle Russ

Most jazz aficionados seem to think Miles was great. I think he was good but overrated.

I agree 100%. His forte wasn't in his playing or writing. It was his ability to surround himself with incredible musicians. Almost every one of his band members through the years went on to become great solo performers. You could call him the "CEO of Jazz."

[boojum]

Many of us believe Wynton Marsalis is arrogant. I am arrogant, too. But Wynton Marsalis has reason to be. And regardless of what we think of him as a person and as a musician, he is using his name and fame to further our great music. I can forgive a lot for that. Miles was arrogant, too. But he generated a lot of interest and fire around his art form. What I am saying is that no matter how we feel about him as a person and a musician I think we all owe him a debt of gratitude for being out there and doing the heavy lifting to help keep jazz alive. He could be at home, counting his money and getting stoned. He is not. And my hat is off to him for that.

[audibell]

It was ever thus:
"To Strauss the composer I take off my hat; to Strauss the man I put it back on again."
— Arturo Toscanini
WalterT

[boojum]

Originally Posted by audibell

It was ever thus:
"To Strauss the composer I take off my hat; to Strauss the man I put it back on again."
— Arturo Toscanini
WalterT

That is quite a harsh commentary on Marsalis. I understand what you are saying but Strauss was far worse. Not a **** but a supporter for various reasons. Richard Strauss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[audibell]

Hi,
I mean to argue that although people might find a favorite entertainer's behavior/associations disappointing they nevertheless do not have to let that invalidate their respect for the individual's art. Picasso was, from my reading about his relationships with his contemporaries, a jerk but his early and late work is still attractive to me.

In mentioning Strauss' involvement with the politics of his day, I think it unhelpful to hold their politics against them as we don't have access to all the info - why, for example was Furtwaengler, who stayed and kept his violinists employable, vilified & rejected by New Yorkers but von Karajan, who actually was a member of the **** Party, not? More recently, Sean Penn, good? Ted Nugent, not good? or Lynrd Skynrd & Dixie Chicks controversies? Whether I agree with artists' public policies or not, appreciation of their work isn't an endorsement of their home life, is it?

If you see my post (4th above) you will see I am a supporter of the Marsalises and I think I explained why, though I admit a little home team bias. Now, back to my soldering.

BRgds,
WalterT

[Remoteness]

This has become seriously uncool for this forum.

I mean, why not direct our comments towards the positive side?

Remember that part? It's still there and very strong; perhaps we can create additional dialog in that direction.

I see no value in continuing this discussion if it stays on this negative track.

Come on man, this is the Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording forum and you know (for the most part) it's not our style of communication.

Does this request sound fair to you folks?

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

This has become seriously uncool for this forum.

I mean, why not direct our comments towards the positive side?

Remember that part? It's still there and very strong; perhaps we can create additional dialog in that direction.

I see no value in continuing this discussion if it stays on this negative track.

Come on man, this is the Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording forum and you know (for the most part) it's not our style of communication.

Does this request sound fair to you folks?

Totally.

(1) This is not a political discussions forum. Plenty of those elsewhere. I like it here... or I'd be there.

(2) It's about the music. And the recording technique. And the gear. If one doesn't care for a particular artist for some (any) reason, express the opinion (if it is, indeed, germane to the conversation) and move on.

(3) Steve... it's your (very large and accommodating) sandbox. He who provides the sandbox gets to make the rules. No worries, there.

HB

[SynthLine09]

Originally Posted by hombre

he may be charitable, he may have chops, and he may be looked upon as a prince in NO, but he destroyed an entire generation of musicians. he may the sweetest guy in the world or the most egotistical, i can't say cuz i don't know him. but it doesn't take a whole lot of listening to realize where his music is coming from. lots of guys have chops, lots of guys have egos and lots of guys are nice, but not a lot of people play with genuine feeling.

thankfully the damage has subsided and the newer generation players that escaped his shadow is expressing themselves with some honesty and genuine feeling.

i can't for the life of me imagine bud, bird and the 52nd street gang approving of wynton's playing.

oh please....lets hear what you've got if you think he's such a hack

[SynthLine09]

Originally Posted by boojum

Many of us believe Wynton Martsalis is arrogant. I am arrogant, too. But Wynton Marsalis has reason to be. And regardless of what we think of him as a person and as a musician, he is using his name and fame to further our great music. I can forgive a lot for that. Miles was arrogant, too. But he generated a lot of interest and fire around his art form. What I am saying is that no matter how we feel about him as a person and a musician I think we all owe him a debt of gratitude for being out there and doing the heavy lifting to help keep jazz alive. He could be at home, counting his money and getting stoned. He is not. And my hat is off to him for that.

[Marlan]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

This has become seriously uncool for this forum.

I mean, why not direct our comments towards the positive side?

Remember that part? It's still there and very strong; perhaps we can create additional dialog in that direction.

I see no value in continuing this discussion if it stays on this negative track.

Come on man, this is the Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording forum and you know (for the most part) it's not our style of communication.

Does this request sound fair to you folks?

Steve:

I kindly disagree. If people only direct their comments towards the positive side this would be a very boring place. I don't detect any disrepect on here thus far. Strong opinion yes, but the thread subject was general, and not the typical gear based one this forum is known for.

Your obviously uncomfortable with the direction this thread is taking, but please let people speak their minds and seriously disagree with one another if need be. That is what discourse is all about, and in the end if kept within the boundaries of courteous and respectful language, will ultimately elevate the level of this forum above others.

[Marlan]

You know what? Even though I wrote the last post not even 5 minutes ago, I think I've changed my mind. Not about the positivity issue.

Maybe this forum should stick to the technical aspects of recording. Thats what I like about it.

[MrMegaEli]

On another note, anyone who hasn’t been to the Rose Theater @ Lincoln Center should go. Its a great sounding room. I saw Dave Brubeck & Ramsey Lewis there a few years ago, killer!