Help with set-up for recording jazz combo

[leddy]

Hi all.

I was hoping for a sanity check or suggestions on a better way. I record my group (piano, string bass, drums, female vocal) at certain gigs in hopes of gathering material for promo, possibly a CD. I am getting ready to record a gig next week because we'll be in a decent room with a Steinway.

I am limited to 6 tracks at once using my Tascam 788. Here's how I plan to go:

Piano - Stereo pair of Oktava MK319's
Drums - Stereo pair of Oktava MK012's
Bass - Beyer M88
Vocal - Shure Beta Vocal Mic (can't remember what she uses)

(preamps are modest - Yamaha MG mixer, VTB-1, etc.)

The only other mics at my disposal are an Earthworks TC20 (but there's only one), as well as another MC012 and some SM57's and 58's. I'm afraid to plan on using an omni without having a control room to listen to it in beforehand.

My recordings are not bad, but they do lack depth. If I had more tracks, I would get another TC20 and put up a pair of room mics - maybe that's what's missing. I'm just hoping someone has a suggestion on how I can optimize what i have, or what to think about when I place mics. Since I'm playing, I can't really listen and adjust. I have to set up and pray.

Thanks.

[tenor39]

The room mic's are a must. A pair of TC20's would work fine. With a room pair you could split the drum kit to an overhead/kick combo and still have plenty of stereo effect.

[ExistanceMusic]

Why do you need a stereo pair for the room? Some of the best and most loved jazz recordings are in Mono.
Find the best spot in the room for the TC20 by walking around while everyone else is playing and find the sweet spot and stick it there. You might find yourself using more of it in the mix than you thought you would if the positioning is right.

[Remoteness]

Jesse, I hear you and feel you on this concept.

stereo room mics are very cool but why noy go with what you have -- make it work for the best.

Right on right on.

[leddy]

How about positioning the TC20 as a room mic, and going with a mono piano mic? I could keep the TC20 centered, have some left and right in the drums, and pan the piano and bass slightly opposite one another (just as we would be set up).

Like I said, I'm trying to add some depth with what I have.

Other ideas I had were:

Use a pair of Oktavas as room mics and have an additional mono drum OH and a mono piano mic to add in as needed.

Forget the room mics, but pull the drum OH's a bit further away to let more of the room sound bleed in.

Good ideas or not?

[Remoteness]

...all I can say is -- Anything is possible.

How about stereo piano, mono drums panned with left and right with the bass?

[brucegel]

acoustic space which is more times than not .If you are in a fine space then using your ears and finding the spot iin the room where you would want to sit for an hour and listen as a listener is the right spot for a stereo pair.Good luck

[pkautzsch]

wouldn't do the drums too wide. maybe I'd try something similar to the stage setup with, say, the piano left, the bass right, drums center, vox in front of drums.
stereo setup for room and "roundness", and a "spot mic" approach for the stage mics...? So: just 1 pno, 1 BD or OH (depending on the set actually), 1 Bass, 1 Vox. Maybe the stereo setup onstage as well, but not only for drums but getting enough piano. spaced omnis...?
the longer I think about it the more interesting it gets, recording jazz band with 6 mics only. :)

[xj32]

I would say keep it simple,

One good mic on the piano,

One good overhead on the drums

Kick on the drums ( not too hot in the final mix if its trad jazz)

Bass

Vocals

One good room mic and you are done and will probably be surprised at how good and believable it can sound.

Paul

[leddy]

Thanks for all the great replies. I am now leaning towards using a pair of Oktavas as room mics, then one mic on each of the other intruments plus vocal. If I am careful to pan the mono tracks to match where they are in the stereo pair, I'm thinking I'll get a more believable image than having a stereo pair on every instrument where bleed is going to smear everything anyway. I'll put the drum mic closer to the snare to pick up some detail when he's using brushes, and low enough to hear the kick. His bass drum cuts through really well without its own mic.

My only concern is making the vocals sound too distant by getting too much PA in the room mics combined with the vocal track itself. I suppose I could try to time-align the two in the mix. Mic placement will be the key, as usual.

[pkautzsch]

As long as the singer holds the mic close enough, this will be the "defining" part of the sound anyway. The Oktavas pick up the PA sound later than the Voc mic picks up the direct sound - so: PA signal will be heard as an early reflection. Thus I would not actually time ALIGN the stuff, but rather delay the room pair a little, so that it comes about 20ms later than the vox. If you do that in post, you have lots of possibilities to try out.
If you think you get too much PA, then put the room mic over the stage, quite high (maybe hang it from the ceiling. or you could try and make a "quasi-PZM" by fixing the mics directly to the ceiling...just another thought)

[leddy]

The drummer and I (bass) just tried out the stereo room mics (x-y), plus one mic on the drums and one mic on the bass in my living room. I think this will work great. I set up my bass a little off-center, but it was easy to pan the mono bass track until it matched the stereo track. With piano a little on the other side it will sound great. Even with a so-so room, I was able to make a natural-sounding image with nice up-front detail. Can't wait until the gig.

[Remoteness]

Preproduction is a wonderful thing -- All the best on you upcoming gig!

[pkautzsch]

can you post some of what you recorded when the gig is over? think it would be interesting :)