Audio Quality: SD MixPre & PCM-M10 or PCM-D50 & PS-2 ?

[nino loss]

Hi,

For a personal recording project involving quiet voices and some soundscapes, I'm looking for an extremely low noise setup that is able to produce overall outstanding audio quality. From the choices you can guess my budget constraints. I came to the conclusion that it's between the following two combos that I'll have to make up my mind:

1.) used MixPre (not D, which is too expensive for me)
>Line_in PCM-M10
or
2.) Denecke PS-2 (said to be comparable to Sony's XLR adapter)
>Mic_in PCM-D50

These setups, of similar physical dimensions, are said to yield cleaner results than HD-P2, FR-2LE ... I found very knowledgeable and experienced people working with both setups, claiming audio quality at SD 7 series level. It's very hard to compare the different snippets available.

I'm aware that the results will also depend on the microphones used, but that's another story (I'll use one of the established low noise champions).

I would greatly appreciate your suggestions and hopefully samples, maybe even comparisons?!

regards


P.S.: Setup #1 has the better ergonomics due to the SD MixPre. Setup #2, when broken apart, has the hand-held recorder with the better sound quality, the PCM-D50.

[charles maynes]

the Denecke PS-2 is a phantom power module, it is not a preamp- so it should not really be a variable sound wise...

[nino loss]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

the Denecke PS-2 is a phantom power module, it is not a preamp- so it should not really be a variable sound wise...

I'm aware of that Charles, that's why it goes in through the PCM-D50's preamps! But because one can use balanced cables and corresponding microphones the audio quality is better. Also the Denecke PS-2, I read, is superior to the Rolls, at least en par with the Sony XLR adapter.

EDIT: ... and also, AFAIK, Phantom Power results in less noise than battery powered mics.

[nino loss]

Charles,

here's a quote from a Webpage describing D50+PS-2:

My initial thought was "hey, it's phantom power. what's it going to do to the sound? probably nothing." Then I found this website. Whoops. Eyes opened.

from this page: the sound my head makes: quickie shootout-744t vs PCM D50 with phantom power

regards

[charles maynes]

interesting article-

I am not certain I would take the conclusion too seriously though, as his testing was pretty limited...

I think a minimum evaluation would be to test it against 4 or 5 different microphones...

[nino loss]

Well, exactly, maybe someone can do a tests? I don't have those units. The different phantom power / Mic adapters (except PS-2), were tested on a Web page he references (Compare Mic Adapters at WingfieldAudio.com)

I also have my doubts ;-) AFAIK, the EIN test of the preamps, of a recorder in this case, does not take into consideration any real microphone nor phantom power etc. Therefore the levels (in this chart Avisoft Bioacoustics - Microphone Input Noise Comparision) should not change at all, and the D50 remains at the level of -126dBu vs -130dBu for the SD722, not to speak of the 744t. But... the experts are on this forum.

It should/could be different though, with the MixPre>Line_In>M10. It should get better, if you feed a better signal, to some extent. As to how much better that is the question I want to ask you. I can't measure it, nor borrow one. I depend on the members of this forum.

Plan B is the FR-2LE, but... "I would prefer not to."

[matt-o-]

From my experience, I would take the MixPre route. I have a MixPre equivalent (Shure FP24) for a lot of years now, and a D-50 for some years now and I like both. I am mainly doing filmmixes, sometimes editing and I always have the MixPre plugged in to my DAW for any kind of recordings (VO, short ADR lines, soundeffects, foleys... you name it, just all the little things, which you want to or have to record fast without disturbing the workflow) and the MixPre always worked out fine. It has a slight color (for example in comparison to the Apogee MiniMe), but mainly for good, especially if you are recording voices. I have no real experience with the quality of the D-50 Mic inputs, as I used these only with a Soundman OKM, which is pretty noisy, although often better sounding than the built in microphones. I can imagine the D-50 inputs as clean, but not as silent as the Mixpre. As far as I am concerned, the MixPre will stay presumably for the rest of my working life my favourite workhorse (as recording is just an addition in my work) and I can definitely recommend it.

my 2c

greetings, matthias

[nino loss]

Matthias, I hear your advice to take the MixPre! There are a few points though which are not clear to me. Maybe you and someone else on the board can help me to get this straight.

* SD say it has EIN -126dBu, which would correspond to the Sony PCM-D50 (according to this test Avisoft Bioacoustics - Microphone Input Noise Comparision). So in regard to self noise, I wouldn't gain anything, right?

* FR-2LE is supposed to be -129dBu according to that test, but when I listen to samples ( Portable Recorder Noise: The Sounds of Silence ) comparing the different recorders in an identical setup, the FR-2LE is quite a bit more hissy than the D50 -126dBu?!

* Also, in the above mentioned samples, the Sony PCM-M10's Line-In appears way cleaner than the D50's Line-In (EDIT: and quieter than all of the tested recorders Lin-In. Even better than the SD 702! IMO, only the Marantz PMD661 does better ) How is that possible?

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by nino loss

Charles,

here's a quote from a Webpage describing D50+PS-2:
from this page: the sound my head makes: quickie shootout-744t vs PCM D50 with phantom power

regards

Maybe I'm missing it on that webpage but I don't see where he says which of the two
recordings, Sample 1 or Sample 2, is the 744 and which is the D50.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by nino loss

Matthias, I hear your advice to take the MixPre! There are a few points though which are not clear to me. Maybe you and someone else on the board can help me to get this straight.

* SD say it has EIN -126dBu, which would correspond to the Sony PCM-D50 (according to this test Avisoft Bioacoustics - Microphone Input Noise Comparision). So in regard to self noise, I wouldn't gain anything, right?

* FR-2LE is supposed to be -129dBu according to that test, but when I listen to samples ( Portable Recorder Noise: The Sounds of Silence ) comparing the different recorders in an identical setup, the FR-2LE is quite a bit more hissy than the D50 -126dBu?!

* Also, in the above mentioned samples, the Sony PCM-M10's Line-In appears way cleaner than the D50's Line-In (EDIT: and quieter than all of the tested recorders Lin-In. Even better than the SD 702! IMO, only the Marantz PMD661 does better ) How is that possible?

I have heard these recorders first hand.... you get what you pay for. They can claim whatever they choose to, but the SD stuff is better sounding in the real world...

[nino loss]

Originally Posted by Brackish

Maybe I'm missing it on that webpage but I don't see where he says which of the two
recordings, Sample 1 or Sample 2, is the 744 and which is the D50.

Sample 1 is the 744t. Sample 2 is the D50+PS-2. He didn't feel the need to specify, as

the results speak for themselves.

;-)

[nino loss]

Thank you Charles! I think you are absolutely right, but, as I said, I didn't have the chance to compare all this recorders, nor can I afford, for my personal project to buy a 702 or more. So the question is weather the Sound Device MixPre coupled with a Sony PCM-M10 through Line-In outperforms the PCM-D50 Mic-In with a good phantom power unit.

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by nino loss

in the above mentioned samples, the Sony PCM-M10's Line-In appears way cleaner than the D50's Line-In (EDIT: and quieter than all of the tested recorders Lin-In. Even better than the SD 702! IMO, only the Marantz PMD661 does better ) How is that possible?

Yeah, why is the 661 Line-In sooooo quiet compared to the others.

[nino loss]

Originally Posted by Brackish

Yeah, why is the 661 Line-In sooooo quiet compared to the others.

Please explain. As a Newcomer I do not understand what you refer to.

[nino loss]

It looks like these solutions are not very attractive?

XLR-Adapter/PhantomPower (Denecke PS-2) > Mic in > Sony PCM-D50
or
Sound Devices MixPre (-D?) > Line in > Sony PCM-M10

Or should I look for a recorder for the USBPre2 ? But which one?

Anybody?

[nino loss]

I just saw that the USBPre2 can only be powered through USB (not even a passive one). Same for the MixPre-D (EDIT: Sorry had it wrong regarding the MixPre-D: Internal: 2 AA alkaline batteries, 4 hours life typical, no phantom power
External: 10-17 VDC via 4-pin Hirose, pin 4 = +, pin 1 = -, completely isolated floating suppl).

nino

[nino loss]

..maybe there is a field recorder that has USB Input ?

PS: from the specifications (http://sounddevices.com/products/usbpre2.htm)

[top]Powering

USB bus powered, soft-start meets USB hot-plugging power requirements (5 V, 100 mA max current drawn during enumeration)
5 V, 500 mA max current from USB port (USBPre 2 will not function if connected through a passive USB connection or hub)

[charlienyc]

hi nino,
as far as finding someone with those units to do a shootout, you might be better served at TS - tapersection.com forums. a bunch of those guys have the D50, M10, and SD units plus a bunch more to make your decision that much harder!

please let us know what you decide though.
cheers,
-c

[nino loss]

Originally Posted by charlienyc

[...] tapersection.com [...]

Thanks for the advice, Charlie! I think I'll ask there and I'll try to let you know what I will do in the end.

As it seems I might have found a third interesting solution: USBPre2>S/PDIF>MicroTrack II or 24/96

nino

[avebr]

Originally Posted by nino loss

(...)
As it seems I might have found a third interesting solution: USBPre2>S/PDIF>MicroTrack II or 24/96
(...)

+1, I'm also really curious about this config!

USBPre2 seems to be a very usefull tool for many situations.
I used previously the Microtrack II for 2trk digital backup only, because the analog section is really not that good... (at least for me)

How about the two together?

All the best,
ave.

[nino loss]

Yes, sounds good... on paper, so I can't tell you more than that, because I don't have them. I'm especially curios to know whether the use of a D50 for the recorder part, actually makes a difference. I don't think so, but we'll see.

nino

[charlienyc]

Originally Posted by avebr

+1, I'm also really curious about this config!

USBPre2 seems to be a very usefull tool for many situations.
I used previously the Microtrack II for 2trk digital backup only, because the analog section is really not that good... (at least for me)

i have faith the USBPre2 would be an excellent investment. otoh i would personally would steer clear of the MTII for anything critical. if Sony would make a PCM-M10 with digital input, it would be perfect. that recorder - even without dig. I/O - is amazing for how much it does, how well it does it, and the cost.

as for input noise, i used my M10 recently as a backup for a choral recording with astounding dynamics. going line in from my pres, it was super quiet. nino, send me a PM with your email addy if you want a sample.

cheers,
-c

[nino loss]

PM sent!

If Sony would make the M10 with an SPDIF Input a lot of my combo ideas would have eventually worked out... price-wise ;-)

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by nino loss

Please explain. As a Newcomer I do not understand what you refer to.

Listen here to the "Line" tests:

Portable Recorder Noise: The Sounds of Silence

Go back and forth listening to how quiet the "sound of silence" is in the first 2 seconds, before she starts talking. Listen with headphones to see which recorder has less hiss when no one is talking.

You go back and forth, hitting PLAY STOP, PLAY STOP, PLAY STOP.

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by charlienyc

i would personally would steer clear of the MTII for anything critical.

What would you see as the problem with using the MTII for digital in?

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by nino loss

I just saw that the USBPre2 can only be powered through USB (not even a passive one). Same for the MixPre-D (EDIT: Sorry had it wrong regarding the MixPre-D: Internal: 2 AA alkaline batteries, 4 hours life typical, no phantom power
External: 10-17 VDC via 4-pin Hirose, pin 4 = +, pin 1 = -, completely isolated floating suppl).

nino

the Mixpre D DOES have phantom power- it is listed in the specs at the bottom of the info page on the SD site....

Phantom Power
48 V through 6.8k ohm resistors. Each mic input will supply 10 mA

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by nino loss

I just saw that the USBPre2 can only be powered through USB (not even a passive one). Same for the MixPre-D (EDIT: Sorry had it wrong regarding the MixPre-D: Internal: 2 AA alkaline batteries, 4 hours life typical, no phantom power
External: 10-17 VDC via 4-pin Hirose, pin 4 = +, pin 1 = -, completely isolated floating suppl).

nino

the Mixpre D DOES have phantom power- it is listed in the specs at the bottom of the info page on the SD site....

Phantom Power
48 V through 6.8k ohm resistors. Each mic input will supply 10 mA

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by nino loss

XLR-Adapter/PhantomPower (Denecke PS-2) > Mic in > Sony PCM-D50
or
Sound Devices MixPre (-D?) > Line in > Sony PCM-M10


Anybody?

Well, of those two I would think the better way to go would be the
MixPre + M10 just because you'd be using the Sound Devices' preamps
(and Lundahl transformer) vs. the D50's preamps. I've never used
the D50 but I'm guessing that the Sound Devices stuff would be
better. (I do have the MixPre and a Denecke phantom unit.)

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

the Denecke PS-2 is a phantom power module, it is not a preamp- so it should not really be a variable sound wise

I wouldn't think so, either, but I was surprised to hear the difference between the ART, Rolls, and Sony phantom powering units here:

Compare Mic Adapters at WingfieldAudio.com

I didn't know these units could have such an impact on the sound. I thought phantom was merely one of those things where it's more or less either ON or OFF and that's about the extent of it.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by Brackish

I wouldn't think so, either, but I was surprised to hear the difference between the ART, Rolls, and Sony phantom powering units here:

Compare Mic Adapters at WingfieldAudio.com

I didn't know these units could have such an impact on the sound. I thought phantom was merely one of those things where it's more or less either ON or OFF and that's about the extent of it.

Some of these are not just P48 supplies but mic-pres with gain control AND P48 that also output line-signal. So that test compares apples with oranges. A P48 supply outputs mic-level and has no pre-amp.
It actually mentions this fact on that page. No idea why they call them "mic adapters" when they essentially are mic-pres.