Inside the grand piano: close miking techniques

[Bechstein]

Hello everybody,

I start this thread with the intention of collecting the different approaches, ideas and techniques that we use when close miking a grand piano:

a) True stereo or spaced and why?
b) Polar patterns and how do they affect the sound?
c) The three dimensions or how small changes in the mic placements (height, inside and outside, left and right, incidence angle, etc.) affect the sound.
d) The lid...
e) Etc.

PICS AND AUDIOS ARE WELCOME

Thank you in advance.

PS: Did I post this in the right forum?

[didier.brest]

I am rather happy with the DPA stereo kit SMK 4060 and still more with the 3521 (2 x 4021) for recording classical piano. I put them about 10 cm above the frame (using the 3521 magnet mounts and a boom for the 4060s) close to the rim where it is curved. The spacing is about 10 cm, smaller than the one shown by DPA here. I would be interested in testing the 3552 (2 x 4052).
MP3-320 kbit/s sample here attached (reverb added). Longer sample in flac available from 4021_VT2_demo.flac.

[David Spearritt]

When you are this close to the piano soundboard, none of your questions have plausible answers. You are in the very near field to a large sound source, so the direct sound completely dominates the reverberant field which will be insignificant by comparison. The direct sound will be made up of local resonant modes of the soundboard giving a lumpy, wolf note ridden, uneven sound, especially if the piano is played louder than pp.

Therefore you do not need small diaphram mics with good off axis response, as there is none required.

a) True stereo or spaced and why?

True stereo implies a natural stereo field produced by phantom source localisation cues from angling and spacing mics but none of this occurs in the very near field as the cues are coming from silly directions all around, incorporating none of the acoustic and do not make a coherent image.

b) Polar patterns and how do they affect the sound?

You will not need to worry about off axis polar pattern as the on axis is so dominant. Use large diaphragm mics.

c) The three dimensions or how small changes in the mic placements (height, inside and outside, left and right, incidence angle, etc.) affect the sound.

Small changes will not affect the sound, which is a complete near field mess coming from all around the mic.

d) The lid...

If you are inside the lid, then it doesn't matter either.

e) Etc

Etc.

Please move at least the long soundboard dimension away from the instrument. Start to setup mics there and experiment. You will get the sound of the instrument instead of local modes of the soundboard.

[Bechstein]

Hi didier.brest!

Thank you for the sample, it sounds great. I really like the deepness and the intimacy that you got.

But when playing forte or attacked, they give a response a little kind of Wurlitzer... you agree or is it me? Is there a way to avoid this effect if you want more air?

Thank you.

PS: My piano is WAY out of tune, but anyway I'll post a sample later with my Schoeps MK22 in close miking.

[Bechstein]

I appreciate your answers, David.

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

When you are this close to the piano soundboard, none of your questions have plausible answers. You are in the very near field to a large sound source, so the direct sound completely dominates the reverberant field which will be insignificant by comparison. The direct sound will be made up of local resonant modes of the soundboard giving a lumpy, wolf note ridden, uneven sound, especially if the piano is played louder than pp.

Maybe I should've entitled the post "miking within the limits of the frame of the piano" better than "close miking".

Therefore you do not need small diaphram mics with good off axis response, as there is none required.

So why do they manufacture/recommend compact or even miniature mics for the piano, is it perhaps only a matter of unobtrusiveness and/or ease of placement?

True stereo implies a natural stereo field produced by phantom source localisation cues from angling and spacing mics but none of this occurs in the very near field as the cues are coming from silly directions all around, incorporating none of the acoustic and do not make a coherent image.

Then may we consider a M/S or a NOS arrangement, placed in the frame of the middle side, a close miking technique or not?

You will not need to worry about off axis polar pattern as the on axis is so dominant. Use large diaphragm mics.

Are you saying that we must expect to get the same sound from two mics of the same kind but with different polar patterns (i.e. cardioid and omni) placed in the same position?

Small changes will not affect the sound, which is a complete near field mess coming from all around the mic.

Well I can perfectly hear the difference from a mic placed over the C4 than over the C5...

If you are inside the lid, then it doesn't matter either.

Hmmm... But even though when I remove the lid everything is less messed, less boomy/muddy...

Please move at least the long soundboard dimension away from the instrument. Start to setup mics there and experiment. You will get the sound of the instrument instead of local modes of the soundboard.

Agree, but then I'd have to deal with room acoustics... exactly what I'm trying to avoid!

Best regards.

[springer]

I always find that close-mic techniques on the piano are best fit with a player who realizes they are close-mic'd. In other words it is very much like a vocalist getting right up on a mic and singing very very lightly to evoke a feeling. My best experiences have been with a very sensitive pianist playing Poulenc and omnis - I think I even had them in an NOS array...

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by springer

I always find that close-mic techniques on the piano are best fit with a player who realizes they are close-mic'd. In other words it is very much like a vocalist getting right up on a mic and singing very very lightly to evoke a feeling. My best experiences have been with a very sensitive pianist playing Poulenc and omnis - I think I even had them in an NOS array...

Samples, samples, samples!

[Bechstein]

I'm posting two samples:

1) Close miking (at this distance is it still close miking?) Pic attached.

2) ORTF 110º, 6 feet away from the place where the two curves meet and 4 feet height.

Piano out of tune and bad room. Not normalized, no reverb, no nothing. Recorded with a Nagra LB.

[jimjazzdad]

Obviously with a nice pair of Schoeps you may not be interested in other microphone candidates, but there is a great ribbon mike shootout here on GS that proposes a very neat arrangement for close micing piano:
Ribbon Madness....Some Comparisons
I have yet to try this technique myself but I intend to at the first opportunity. I personally like the results very much (both the close mic pairs in the shootout).

[Bechstein]

Hi Jim,

Thank you for the link, that's really a great piano sound (pity that it wasn't a Steinway D)...

Obviously with a nice pair of Schoeps you may not be interested in other microphone candidates...

In fact one of the purposes of this thread is to know what mics work better in close miking, and buy myself a new pair. Of course the easiest thing for me now is buying two other capsules (1200€) and expand the Schoeps "family" in that way, but if I finally decide to buy two bodies also, we're talking about 2700€, an amount that buys very good mics of almost any brand.

I have yet to try this technique myself but I intend to at the first opportunity. I personally like the results very much (both the close mic pairs in the shootout).

If you do, please give us feedback.

Cheers!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

If you do, please give us feedback.

Cheers!

Hi Hugo -

Thanks for this thread. I always love to see threads on recording pianos. IMO it's one of the most difficult instruments to record due to it's size - both sonically and physically.

Thanks to Jim in the post above for recommending the technique that I've ended up with. I love ribbons in fig-8 inside the piano. It's just so much more "natural" and less fatiguing for me.

FYI, for those wondering, here's some pics of the Coles vs. 205 setup. More pics and clips in the above thread......Ribbon Madness....Some Comparisons

01 Rear View - You can see the rear mics are firing down at the strings and up at the lid - fig 8 pattern of course.

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02 Front View

If you look close, you can see that the front mics are firing L and R and NOT up at the lid and down at the strings.

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03 This pic shows the front mics a little better. And you can see the rear mic's positioning as well.

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04 From the side. Note the R92's positioning - although they were basically throwaway. Not really a contender at that position, although I love U67's placed similarly.

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05 And lastly - the room mic position shot from the piano.

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Cheers,

bp

[Bechstein]

Hi drBill !

The ribbon option is very tempting, but totally unknown for me (I mean I never tried one). But I'll try to get a pair as you suggested and see what happens...

Nice to read you.

[Gary Ladd]

This is why I prefer my U5

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by Gary Ladd

This is why I prefer my U5

What do you mean?

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

But when playing forte or attacked, they give a response a little kind of Wurlitzer... you agree or is it me? Is there a way to avoid this effect if you want more air?

Yes I agree that it is no so good when it becomes louder. ORTF above the strings seems being better. I prefer your close miking samples to the too far ORTF one.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

ORTF above the strings seems being better.

Surprisingly clean and dry (specially considering they're inside the piano...). I'd kill for that cleanliness...

I prefer your close miking samples to the too far ORTF one.

"Too far" so to speak or you mean they're too far, actually ? Then how far would you go in ORTF ?

[didier.brest]

In your room, no more than 2' from the piano rim. At 6 feet, you are likely beyond the critical perimeter, which means than the reverberated sound is stronger that the direct sound. You might try ORTF 1' above the rim in the curve, steered to the middle of the hammer line.

[Gary Ladd]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

What do you mean?

Yamaha U5 stand-up, much easier to mic up in my experience than a grand piano...

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

So why do they manufacture/recommend compact or even miniature mics for the piano, is it perhaps only a matter of unobtrusiveness and/or ease of placement?

No, it's the uniform directivity with frequency that matters in rendering a tonally neutral stable stereo image, but placed outside the critical distance, ie beyond the long dimension of the soundboard.

Then may we consider a M/S or a NOS arrangement, placed in the frame of the middle side, a close miking technique or not?

If it's inside the critical distance (which it will be) it's in the near field to a large source, and so you can forget about sensible stereo cues.

Are you saying that we must expect to get the same sound from two mics of the same kind but with different polar patterns (i.e. cardioid and omni) placed in the same position?

Inside the piano, you will get roughly the same sound from any pattern mic, because all your sound is direct and way too close and loud for any fine discrimination of the effects of directivity.

Well I can perfectly hear the difference from a mic placed over the C4 than over the C5...

Of course you can, because you are picking up local resonant modes of the soundboard and the position of the peaks of these modes vary significantly over small distances across the soundboard.

Hmmm... But even though when I remove the lid everything is less messed, less boomy/muddy...

Well if you are this close, then removing the lid will help, a little.

Agree, but then I'd have to deal with room acoustics... exactly what I'm trying to avoid!

You cannot have a grand piano without room acoustics, the two are joined at the hip.

[Bechstein]

Right. Now I understand it better... Thank you.

But since an omni capsule has a lower off-axis coloration compared to a cardioid, with all the sound reflected from everywhere... will not be an omni of help?

Cheers.

[didier.brest]

Mics inside the piano is a standard technique not only for pop-rock where the piano is only an element of the mix but also for jazz piano solo. Read for instance this about a Keith Jarrett recording.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

Right. Now I understand it better... Thank you.

But since an omni capsule has a lower off-axis coloration compared to a cardioid, with all the sound reflected from everywhere... will not be an omni of help?

Cheers.

Perhaps, perhaps not. The sound reflected from everywhere will be horribly out of phase, coloured, and messed up. You don't want any of it, but if you have to take it, then I would use a large diaphragm coloured tube mic to flavour it.

Having said that, the best close piano sound I have heard is Rich Mays 4060's taped somewhere inside the box.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Mics inside the piano is a standard technique not only for pop-rock where the piano is only an element of the mix but also for jazz piano solo. Read for instance this about a Keith Jarrett recording.

So what? By necessity in a jazz ensemble to get separation and minimise bleed or to minimise audience interference. Some of the solo KJ albums sound terrible with their close mics, such a lost opportunity in those recordings.

Good piano sound is independent of the type of music being played, except perhaps where it's all pianissimo or softer, like a lot of jazz and muzak noodling. Then you need close mics because you can't hear the damn thing and the soundboard is barely vibrating.

Good piano sound where the instrument is stretched and actually plays "piano" and "forte" is mostly in classical music examples, and therefore you need to be away from the instrument and incorporate the acoustic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEnfZjqMSy0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lw8Ayauy7c&fmt=22

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Perhaps, perhaps not. The sound reflected from everywhere will be horribly out of phase, coloured, and messed up. You don't want any of it, but if you have to take it, then I would use a large diaphragm coloured tube mic to flavour it.

For example ?

Having said that, the best close piano sound I have heard is Rich Mays 4060's taped somewhere inside the box.

? ? ?

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

YouTube - ‪La Campanella by Yundi Li‬‏

Is that a Schoeps KFM at the end of the video or what ???

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

So what? By necessity in a jazz ensemble to get separation and minimise bleed or to minimise audience interference. Some of the solo KJ albums sound terrible with their close mics, such a lost opportunity in those recordings.

Most sound great. Some classical piano recordings sound not so good.

Of course you can dislike this technique. But it is a fact that it is used by top sound engineers for recording piano solo albums from top artists.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

In your room, no more than 2' from the piano rim. At 6 feet, you are likely beyond the critical perimeter, which means than the reverberated sound is stronger that the direct sound. You might try ORTF 1' above the rim in the curve, steered to the middle of the hammer line.

I tried last night some of your suggestions. No doubt 1 feet is better than 6 in "my" room, but I still have a lot of that awful sound, plus the excess of mids due to the placement of the mics... It ain't easy, I think I have to re-tune the piano, take all the carpets, blankets, pillows and couches available and spread 'em all over the room and start over again with the close miking experiments...

[LX3]

Before a massive row breaks out, it would help if you folks made it clear that you're ONLY talking about solo un-amplified piano performance.

In any amplified jazz or rock situation, close mics are the only option in my (and pretty much everyone else's) experience. Any attempt to mic from a distance will generally be a disaster because the spill will kill you... and that's if the feedback doesn't kill you first.

If you're doing classical then yes, the options (and results) are many and varied.

[David Spearritt]

My point is that if you are putting any sorts of mics "inside" a grand piano, you are in the very near field to a large planar sound source where you will get a tonally uneven, percussive, completely false sound, misrepresentative of the instrument. It doesn't matter how many great engineers do it or what the music is or what day it is, this is the laws of physics and can't be changed.

If you can avoid it you should and know why.

[jude]

Originally Posted by LX3

Before a massive row breaks out, it would help if you folks made it clear that you're ONLY talking about solo un-amplified piano performance.

In any amplified jazz or rock situation, close mics are the only option in my (and pretty much everyone else's) experience. Any attempt to mic from a distance will generally be a disaster because the spill will kill you... and that's if the feedback doesn't kill you first.

If you're doing classical then yes, the options (and results) are many and varied.

was going to post exactly this!

[NorseHorse]

Oh. So could someone clarify why we are close-miking the solo un-amplifed piano performance? Is that really what we are talking about?