Help Recording Upright Bass

[e-cue]

I always DI the input, and almost never use it. When I mic upright, I have the bassist play and move all over the place like a geeked out squirrel listening for the sweet spot. Most of the time, this is at least a step back from the instrument. Be very careful not to mic it too close. I like tracking upright in live, reflective rooms personally.

So. I'd use the Sm57beta on vocals for a scratch, the U5 on the bass flat and direct, a 184 on the fretboard (if it works for the style of music, I mean, I doubt you are going for a 'gut bucket' sound), and the 195 (GR pre-> RNC Supernice) on bass, the 184 (GR pre-> Speck (roll off lows)->RNC on Supernice) and a 57 on the ac guitar, and then go back of overdub the vocals with the 195. The less compression the better so that the sounds can take up more space. That way when you finish your mix, you should have everything in a pocket, but in very wide pockets. A good way to achieve this with what you got it, let the upright be huge, throw an LA2A plug in on that channel, and key the input from the vocal knocking off around what looks like 8 db on the meter during peaks. I love the hell out of keying the LA2A, but if you want it to be more subtle, try the Ren Comp with a 4:1 ratio and solo the track to get your attack and release times peachy.

If you do this type of thing often, I highly suggest some ribbon mics (and an IBP unit!). Good luck!

[Ol' Betsey]

Hi,

Just got done recording my first Upright Bass myself. Kinda scary but according to the player, it worked out real well.

Having never done it before, I asked the bass player a few things and then just winged it.

Basically I ended up using the DI through a Sans Amp with only the slighest hint of Eq (just enough to when you turned it on and off you THOUGHT you might a difference FOR THE BETTER. Staying safe here.) into an API 3124 and then an 1176.

Then I used a KM84 (we had a couple of LD's lying around but for me, this seemed to sound best) about a foot off from the bridge. Can't remember if I used the API or a 1272 and then went into an LA2A.

Oh and I used a couple of 560's for subtle Eq shaping. No much though.

Tried miking the fretboard higher up, more towards his hands, but found that I was getting enough attack from the DI input. Also tried a 121 for chuckles and while sounding great, wasn't exactly what I was looking for. It sounded really beautiful and natural and I wouldn't hesitate to try the ribbon again (Damn, why didn't I used it again? Doh!).

Without me sounding like a Con, I reckon your best bet is to use a little client psychology and while pretending to know exactly what your doing (but not to the point of arrogance, of course), ask the bass player if there's any specific ways he's had success recording THAT instrument in the past and build it from there. It makes him feel like he's contributing to the construction of his own sound (which he is) and gives you a platform to start from.

If on the other hand, he's a complete tosser and offers no help, tell him his instrument sucks, in fact it's THE WORST upright bass you've EVER heard, and that's there's NO WAY your ever going to get a decent tone out of that PIECE OF CRAP!

JUST JOKING! Not even I'M that bad.

Good luck, have a blast and I'm SURE you'll do fine.

R.

P.S. Like e-que, I would probably use the Avavlon on DI and GR for the 184. But might also try the DI on the GR too.

[Stizz]

I often find a sweet spot towards the top of the body near where the fingerboard joins - go fr the WOOD sound - recoed the DI if you wish, but by itself, I don't expect it to be useful. I have also been surprised with KM 84s on upright bass - a ribbon wuld be great too, have sometimes used an RE-20 or U87/67 - throw up a couple of mics and take your pick. Good Luck!

[jjaacc1]

Ok, So I am going to try to Mic the Upright Bass with a KM184 and a U195. Where should I place these mics? Should I experiment with any panning, or keep it dead in the center?


John

[Ol' Betsey]

Well, from what I understand (maybe we can get some of the old school mastering guys to clarify this?) in the vinyl days they kept most of bass heavy instruments in the center so they wouldn't have any problems when cutting the lacquers.

In this day and age of the CD I don't reckon there are the same concerns (or are there?) and you can pretty much pan anything wherever you want.

Having said that, I'd still put the bass all nice and fat-like straight down the middle. If your recording the instruments together, maybe throw up a couple of ambients to give the ensemble a bit of space.

As far as position, just put on some headphones and swing a few mics around.

And when using the DI, KM184 and the U195 (or any combination), watch the phase. Phase problems can put the "suck" into "the bass sound sucks" before you can, um, say "that bass sound sucks"... ?

R.

[SaxonSound]

Try sticking a mic by each soundhole. The one by the E string will pick more bass, and the one by the G string will get more of the treble. Mix them together, and you have a nice way to eq without using eq.
As others have said, a third mic higher up on the fretboard sounds nice too. Especially if you have a slapper.

[littledog]

I've always found the soundholes way too boomy. Usually I am close mic'ing due to the fact that other instruments are in the room as well (such as grand piano).

The usual sweet spot for me is to mic the strings just BELOW the bridge. That usually gets a nice combination of articulation and body. I also often record the pickup just for safety, and maybe blend it in for a little extra high frequency. But the mic is doing at least 90% of the work.

[echorec]

Originally posted by Stizz
I have also been surprised with KM 84s on upright bass

Me too, KM-84 a foot away from the bridge works great.

[bjornson]

My biggest problem with ac bass has always been consistency. Even the smallest movement of the instrument causes big changes in sound. My solution is a fabricated mic holder that attaches to the peg. Where the bass moves, the mic goes with it. The only problem is every time i pull it out, the bass player buys it from me!

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by bjornson
My solution is a fabricated mic holder that attaches to the peg. Where the bass moves, the mic goes with it. The only problem is every time i pull it out, the bass player buys it from me!

Sounds to me like you've done got yourself a little e-vent-shun there, boy!

I have to admit that I know TWO people that would probably buy one straight away.

Are they difficult to make?

Come on, what's the secret?!?!

R.

[Bruce Keen]

I got a nice balanced tone with a 4006 omni DPA stuck with a piece of foam IN the bridge but beware of any mechanical rattle as the XLR lead will vibrate with bass real easy. Add a KM84 shoulder height a foot back for some air(use IBP for phase). I agree that the famous F hole technique is often too boomy. I think the main problems I have run into when recording upright are
1/ Boominess from proximity effect with a cardioid pattern. A 47 card. stuck right up on the F hole is not cool at all
2/ One seldom tracks Upright alone. Usually drums leak through. I'd rather use a couple of baffles and make the bleed my friend than lock him up in a booth. When tracking live (no cans) a reflective side (diffusor) towards the player can help him hear his instrument better.
3/ Uneven tone. I know my placement is way off when certain notes start poping out. No amount of compression will make it right. This can be a huge problem and again is often due to micing too close up.
4/ Boxiness. A sound with no air is boxy. Just because it fills the low end doesn't mean there is no top. That's also why the room is important.
5/ bass transmission through the floor. Make sure nothing goes rattling. Sometimes it happens just on a couple of notes and you get stuck in the middle of a take. (as usual)
6/ Pickups suck. Don't do anything for me. Ever.

Like e-cue said you have to go hunting for the sweet spot because each instrument is hugely different. And a crappy upright will always sound bad. Lately I dug Al Shmitt's recording on The look of love/ Diana Krall. I find it helpful to have a few reference points on albums I love to try and get into the ballpark.
Having said all this I must say that for me Upright is a difficult instrument to record but extremely rewarding when you get it right

[mixer]

i find that there are two places i usually mic depending on the player...mostly just under the bridge facing up especially if the player is going to use the bow. or i will mic at the sholder where the neck and body meet. i have used a km84 also a sennheiser 441. but usually i like a large diaphram mic and 87 or an at4050.and usually not to close...they are long waves.

[Paul Gold]

Originally posted by Ol' Betsey
[B]Well, from what I understand (maybe we can get some of the old school mastering guys to clarify this?) in the vinyl days they kept most of bass heavy instruments in the center so they wouldn't have any problems when cutting the lacquers.
[B]

That's true. Low frequencies cause the most excursion or stylus movement. Uncorrelated L/R signals cause vertical excursion. So if the bass is not in the center there is a good chance the stylus will pop out of the groove. I don't think this has much to do with the question though.

I'm an upright bass player too. As has been said, use the bridge as your starting point. Keep the mic far enough away to minimize proximity effect because the player will move around a little. Move up or down to get the best tone. I've always got good results with one mic but I guess it couldn't hurt to try more. I've also gotten good results with all types of mics. That's my bass though. A flat toneless bass or bass player won't be improved by a good mic.

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by Bruce KEEN
I got a nice balanced tone with a 4006 omni DPA stuck with a piece of foam IN the bridge .
6/ Pickups suck. Don't do anything for me. Ever.

I must disagree with my right honourable friend Mr. Keen of Paris.

Not all pick-ups suck. It may not be the sound your after but give it a try none the less.

As I said, I've only recorded one Upright Bass in my whole long life but on this particular instrument the bass player did in fact have a contact mic mounted in the exact way you mentioned above (attached to a piece of foam wedged in the bridge.) which I probably, incorrectly, described as a DI. Although it did have 1/4 jack and we did run it into a DI box.

(As you can see, even though I might manage to get half-decent tones, I really don't know what the hell I'm talking about...)

So, actually, maybe Pick-ups DO suck?

I'll shut up now...

Good luck anyway.

R.

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by jjaacc1
Ok, So I am going to try to Mic the Upright Bass with a KM184 and a U195. Where should I place these mics? Should I experiment with any panning, or keep it dead in the center?

Paul Gold
That's true. Low frequencies cause the most excursion or stylus movement. Uncorrelated L/R signals cause vertical excursion. So if the bass is not in the center there is a good chance the stylus will pop out of the groove. I don't think this has much to do with the question though.

Thanks for the info Paul.

I thought I remember my ME mentioning something like this to me. Of course that when I first started running my 7" label 10 years ago!

R.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by Paul Gold
I've always got good results with one mic but I guess it couldn't hurt to try more. I've also gotten good results with all types of mics. That's my bass though. A flat toneless bass or bass player won't be improved by a good mic.

Absolutely! I've recorded great players on great basses, and I've recorded me on my bass. All in all, I preferred the sound that they gave me...

[e-cue]

f

Originally posted by Bruce KEEN
I got a nice balanced tone with a 4006 omni DPA stuck with a piece of foam IN the bridge but beware of any mechanical rattle as the XLR lead will vibrate with bass real easy.

I've tried this with everything from an EM8000 to an Earthworks QTC's, to a lav mic... I never got it to sound good. What types of pre's, etc did you use? Any additional tips?

Mine just sounded like a big rumble, almost like just before you hear a bass guitar amp feedback.

[Bruce Keen]

Originally posted by e-cue
f

I've tried this with everything from an EM8000 to an Earthworks QTC's, to a lav mic... I never got it to sound good. What types of pre's, etc did you use? Any additional tips?

Mine just sounded like a big rumble, almost like just before you hear a bass guitar amp feedback.

On this gig I had to make do with the CS4000 euphonix preamps which seemed allright actually. I didn't fiddle too much. The Dpa omni is a nice mike. I really don't get the rumble thing at all . Perhaps your Mic was mechanically vibrating and not isolated enough. I used this really thick dense foam to hold the mic so as to get the capsule midway between the strings and the body and midway between the fingers and the bridge. I'm sure I could have tried different positions. More Pluck vs. more tone but it wasn't one of those experimental sessions and the balance of the tone was nice. Perhaps I was lucky with the foam and the DPA combination as I can easily see why a mic would give a rumble in there. I was searching why I was getting a huge rattle and it turned out that the locking system on the XLR was just vibrating like crazy. Kind of unexpected.
I think I saw a company that builds an anti vibration mic mount to put under the bridge. I'll have a look. BTW I recorded flat and I think it pretty much stayed that way in the mix of the movie.

Also to answer back about the pickups, I must admit that I do not know about all pickups. Just that each time I've heard one I found it boxy and bland. So it hasn't really pushed me to investigate any further. I am by no means a specialist of this particular instrument and just wanted to share my experimentations.

Any pointers to some of your favorite acoustic bass recordings?
This thread is interesting

[e-cue]

Originally posted by Bruce KEEN
Any pointers to some of your favorite acoustic bass recordings?
This thread is interesting

I really liked the bass on Nanci Griffith's "Other Voices/Other Rooms". For a more agressive gut bucket style, the Bad Liver's "Delusions of Banjer" stuff fits the bill. On a more jazzy front, Branford Marsalis' "The Beautiful Ones are not yet Born" is pretty smooth. On and the fat low end hip hop, Tribe Called Quest's "Lo End Theory", specifically "Buggin' Out" is awesomely dark. The bass tones on Norah Jone's "Come Away With Me" aren't too schabby neither.

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by Bruce KEEN
Any pointers to some of your favorite acoustic bass recordings?

Yeah, ANYTHING by the Stray Cats! Man, I love the guys.

Just joking. See, that shows how much I know about double bass.

R.

[Dave Martin]

I like a lot of diferent upright sounds - the one that got me to buy an acoustic bass was the sound that Eddie Gomes had on Chick Corea's "Mad Hatter". I like about everything that Ray Brown recorded.

For contemporary stuff, Listen to the tracks that Byron House played on the last Dixie Chicks record (there are 2 bassists, though - the other guy is OK, but I prefer Byron's sound), pretty much anything that Edgar Meyer recorded, and (A little self promotion here), Dennis Crouch's sound on "The Time Jumpers Live At The Station Inn" (Samples are at www.thetimejumpers.com ).