Recording Upright Acoustic Bass - Help Please

[xj32]

This weekend I have the pleasure of recording a Standup/Upright/Acoustic Bass.

The style of music is celtic / folk, so it will be primarilly plucked in a "Bill Black" style.

I am planning on trying my new Germanium Pre, although I also may try my TG-2 and HV3 on it, but was wondering if anyone had any good mic placement and mic selection suggestions.

Thanks,

Paul

[mtstudios@charter]

Originally Posted by xj32

This weekend I have the pleasure of recording a Standup/Upright/Acoustic Bass.

The style of music is celtic / folk, so it will be primarilly plucked in a "Bill Black" style.

I am planning on trying my new Germanium Pre, although I also may try my TG-2 and HV3 on it, but was wondering if anyone had any good mic placement and mic selection suggestions.

Thanks,

Paul

I find a SM7 works great. About 12" away, NOT pointing at F hole.
www.bluethumbproductions.com

[zakco]

I get good results from using 2 mics.

Depending on the song/player either LDC or Ribbon about 12" away pointing at the center of the bridge and a 2nd mic higher up off of the fingerboard that could be a SDC, a dynamic or another LDC. The fingerboard mic is where a lot of the instrument's character is and I'll experiment alot with that one depending on the song/player.

Blend to taste....

Works for me about 90% of the time.

-Z-

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by zakco

I get good results from using 2 mics.

Depending on the song/player either LDC or Ribbon about 12" away pointing at the center of the bridge and a 2nd mic higher up off of the fingerboard that could be a SDC, a dynamic or another LDC. The fingerboard mic is where a lot of the instrument's character is and I'll experiment alot with that one depending on the song/player.

Blend to taste....

Works for me about 90% of the time.

-Z-

This is good advice, also an expensive pickup system on the bass can do wonders (the cheaper ones are usually noisey and the low frequencies are loose).

[De chromium cob]

Try a RCA 77DX....It rocks for that type of bass....

[rwhitney]

If the bass is isolated, I really like the M149 (usu. card., sometimes omni)/DWFearn pre combination, with the mic about 1.5 feet off the strings a little higher than the bridge. That's where I'd start, but rather than rely on this, I always move the microphone (in my hand, not a stand) around in relation to any instrument, cranked through headphones, to find the best (usu. most evenly-resonant) spot. (The simple technique described in Starou's "Mixing with Your Mind".) Depending on the sound, the mic could end up in a very different spot. The M149 is so wide and sensitive, I haven't needed to use two mics.

If the bass isn't isolated, I haven't found a good way to record it (an sm57 stuck into, or almost into, the f-hole, can work okay in combo with a pickup). Still working on that one. But I definitely gave up trying to use the M149 on bass when not isolated because it picks up everything else in the room.

[dokushoka]

I just finished up a session that required a lot of work with the upright and it "had to be right." My original setup was an M150 aimed at the f hole and placed about a foot back. I then added a Schoeps aimed at the bass players fingers, to get more attack. This worked out ok, but it wasn't until they did a tune that had bowed bass that I decided to pull out an R121. I aimed that, with the dark side, straight to where the bow meets the strings, thinking it would get some nice, smooth attack from the bow. To my pleasant surpass, it also got a wonderful low end! I ended up ONLY needing the Royer in the mix. It even worked on later songs where he didn't use the bow! The R121 will now be my go to mic for upright.

[xj32]

Thanks guys,

I guess I should mention my mic choices that I have available,

Audix C-111 (x2)
Audix D-6
Audix D-2
Audix D-4
Shure SM-81 (x2)
Shure KSM-44 (x2)
Shure SM-98
Shure SM-57
Neumann KM 84 (x2)
MXL V-6 (x2)
Blue Blue Bird
Blue Ball
Royer R-121
Audio Tech 4047
Audio Tech 4060

Not a total high-end mic collection but I get along pretty well with them...

Which of these would be good starting points...


PS - I saw the r-121 recomendation after I typed this...thanks

Paul

[Jetblack]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

This is good advice, also an expensive pickup system on the bass can do wonders (the cheaper ones are usually noisey and the low frequencies are loose).

Yes indeed. A David Gage Realist pick-up does wonders for bass. Combine that with a Sony C-38B slightly of axis with the bridge and you are pretty much guaranteed a good sound, assuming the player has his instrument set up well and knows how to play. The type of strings will also change the character of the instrument immensely.

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by Jetblack

The type of strings will also change the character of the instrument immensely.

I've never had the luxury to get into the instrument that far, please elaborate on specific brands/types/sizes.

[Jetblack]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

I've never had the luxury to get into the instrument that far, please elaborate on specific brands/types/sizes.

I've work with a band (I tour live and studdio recordings) who have a string quartet (bass, cello and 2 violins, along with 2 guitar players, a drummer, mandolin player and 7 vocals). The string players are maticulous about their instruments and besides being absolutely incredible players have their instruments set up very well. The bassist has 2 basses. His studio bass is a 375 year old Italian bass that honestly sounds like nothing I have heard. His touring bass is a very high end Czech bass. He uses gut strings that when bowed produce a very warm sound. In contrats, one of the 2 violinist uses nylon strings that give her the effetc thet she is looking for (which contrasts with the other violinists who plays gut as well). The ybuy their strings from one luthier here in Montreal and I really don't know what teh brand is. I can ask though if you like. They all four have Realist pickups on their instruments for touring but like I said, yield amazing results in the studio.

[allaccess]

I've gotten a great sound with the 4060 about 8" away kinda between the bridge and f-hole, and a km-84 up by the neck/body joint... I wish I had had a 121, I bet that it'll give you a great sound! The 4060 had a great overall sound, and really cut through. that particular recording was a jazz quintet...

Ryan Hewitt

[Jim vanBergen]

While I personally prefer a nice Neumann LDC and I agree the Royer is an ideal choice for your application, I want to share that I've experienced great sounds with KM84s and very nice sounds on acoustic bass with KM184s. The SM81s you have are also capable of doing a great job, these old workhorses were de riguer in the 80s and 90s but have been largely relegated to Hihat & drum OHs while they are still a venerable but solid choice for condenser applications.

Here is a shocker I had, one of the biggest suprises on bass I got was having an 'old school' jazz player show up for a jazz festival in Atlanta with an SM57 wrapped in foam shoved up under his bridge. Guy was about 80 years old, smart as a whip, REALLY played the crap out of his bass- he was from New Orleans and had jazz in his sould. I asked if he had a DI, no, just the mic. I put up a TLM170 anyway and intended to use that, but I PFL'd the the 57 & it had great sound- good body, warm resonance, a touch of pluck. I muted the 170, opened the '57, punched OUT the compressor and EQ and was good to go. Great session for straight-ahead jazz, recorded & mixed live simultaneously off the Gamble console.

Lesson learned? Maybe half of the mics you have could be used successfully on a bass.

Hope this helps!

[valleysound]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Here is a shocker I had, one of the biggest suprises on bass I got was having an 'old school' jazz player show up for a jazz festival in Atlanta with an SM57 wrapped in foam shoved up under his bridge. Guy was about 80 years old, smart as a whip, REALLY played the crap out of his bass- he was from New Orleans and had jazz in his sould. I asked if he had a DI, no, just the mic. I put up a TLM170 anyway and intended to use that, but I PFL'd the the 57 & it had great sound- good body, warm resonance, a touch of pluck. I muted the 170, opened the '57, punched OUT the compressor and EQ and was good to go. Great session for straight-ahead jazz, recorded & mixed live simultaneously off the Gamble console.

Lesson learned? Maybe half of the mics you have could be used successfully on a bass.
Hope this helps!

I do a lot of live sound and the SM57 wrapped in foam down in the tailpiece was always a favorite of mine. Could use a bit more attack, but a very rich sound. Not too many players will let me do that to their "baby". Most have their own pickup/mic, the rest like a standard large diaphram. I worked with a cellist who used a AT cardiod condensor clip mic(ATM35) clipped to her bridge. Very natural sound, adjust over the f-hole to taste.

[mpzdrummer]

Great tip on the 57 in foam. Could you give details on how you wrapped the mic and placed it on the instrument? MPZ

[Remoteness]

Paul, that's a good one...

Ron Carter turned me on to that trick back in the early 80s using a bar towel instead of foam. We have also used foam in the same fashion with KM84s or KM140s with great success.

Many musicians don't like the fact that the foam (or bar towel) can dampen the sound of the instrument so, we have used rubber bands to suspend the mic. It works great -- a win win situation for musician and technician alike.

There are a few threads about this floating around this forum -- Do a search if necessary.

[valleysound]

Originally Posted by mpzdrummer

Great tip on the 57 in foam. Could you give details on how you wrapped the mic and placed it on the instrument? MPZ

I have a couple pieces of case foam that I tape(small strips of gaff) around the SM57 like two pieces of bread with the SM57 in between. I use thick or thin foam(can be a towel) to make the fit snug. I slide it down the tailpiece of the bass. Sometimes you have to connect the cable after. The mic points straight up the neck. The resonance of the body, and the mic's proximity effect give a very full sound and with an aggresive player the click is brought out. All tailpieces are different, some you can use this technique, some not. There has to be a hole or space under the tailpiece for the mic to fit, that's where different ammounts of "padding" work to hold the mic. Try different mics, you'd be surprised. Works great for bass players who move a lot. Good luck!

[klaukholm]

The Realist requres the bridge to more or less come off as it goes under the bridge (soundpostside) of the bass. This can change the stringlength so great care should be taken that nothing moves. Measure the original string length and position of the feet.

Asking a player to put on gut is not recommendable. Gut is much thicker and feels very different. This changes the pitch on the instrument and they do not stay in tune which makes them terrible session strings. Bowing gut is something few can do anymore and will sound on the nasal side even if you go with the more modern feeling pirastro covered guts. However Gut on an old italian with a player that is used to them is fantastic (early Ray Brown, Charlie Haden)

Jazz players often use Tomastic spirocore which is a loose tension string with good sustain and a clear tone in line with Niels Henning Örstedt Pedersen, Ron Carter etc.

This string also sounds bad when bowed as it is very bright and scratchy.


Your KM 84 pair should sound quite good through the millennia. Look for spots aiming an inch up the string from the bridge with decent distance, the bass has a different sound on the bassbar and soundpost sides. Use this to you advantage depending on the sound of the particular instrument/player. Bass is a weird instrument and there is no silver bullet for pizz work. Know your zones on the bass and try them all. Then find a blend by moving the mic into an ideal mix of the zones (two may be required to save time)
¨
Good luck
kjetil

[bongo]

Originally Posted by valleysound

I worked with a cellist who used a AT cardiod condensor clip mic(ATM35) clipped to her bridge. Very natural sound, adjust over the f-hole to taste.

I've used an ATM-35 many times with great results. I've always clipped it on the bridge and pointed at the body of the bass.

[klaukholm]

Be aware that clipping the mic to the bridge will have the same result as using a mute, causing a loss of body to the instruments sound. You will hear this by pinching the bridge while the player is playing. On a bass there is less of this effect, but it is still there and will cause new wolftones - typically F# on bass as well as exasterbating already existing wolfs.

kjetil

[Remoteness]

Rubber Bands

[Remoteness]

Some additional angles...

[Jim vanBergen]

Steve's rubber band example is great, if you don't like the rubber band deal, you can also find long O rings at mcmaster-carr to use, or in a pinch I steal my daughter's hairbands.

MUCH sexier than shoving a piece of semi-rigid foam in the same place, though that's often what I see.

Nice pic, steve! KM-100 w/ 40 capsule? (DOH! Just saw the captions, sorry!)

[Remoteness]

What captions?

[klaukholm]

A really elegant solution is the DPA compact cardioid in a VH4000
holder/shockmount which clamps on to the strings on the tailpiece end. you can manouver the mic to aim between the feet of the bridge like steve did with the km140 as well as more towards the ribs on either side.

[Remoteness]

Ahhhh.... DPA transducers are wonderful instruments...

I would love to have a larger variety of those for sure!

[wavcatcher]

Considering your gear list I would use a KM84 up on the fingerboard as others have mentioned and either the 4047 or 4060 as the body mic as mentioned previously as well.

My starting point is usually a KM84 and up high and an U87 or U67 down low. Just because I've done it a bunch and can almost always get the session going with excellent reliable results. If the group gives me time to experiment then come the other mics but a KM84 up high and a U87 low has yet to suck. Maybe wasn't the best but it was always good.

[Jim vanBergen]

How did the session go? Did you use the Royers, Neumanns, or record by osmosis with 100% oxygen free copper hand woven by virgins in an anechoic chamber?

Give us the details of how Celtic bass turned out.... sluts want to know!

[xj32]

Thanks for all of the advice...

...well the session went ok.

Unfortunatly the bass was not a full size upright as I had expected, but was a smaller body hybrid acoustic/electric Takamine (still full scale neck) but not as full sounding as I had hoped and suprisingly quiet.

My chain was 4060 through a Chandler Germanium about 6 - 8 inches from the right F hole, very fat sounding and warm. The combo of the Germ / tube mic gave me bass for days, infact the thick button was almost too much so I left it out.

For the finger string slap sound I tried the 121 through both my HV3 and a TG2, but I was not happy with having to push the gain so much with my 121...in fact I am starting to think it needs to be re-ribboned as it is really, really quiet...so I went with the 84 through the TG2.

I also took a line out from his DI into another channel of the TG2.


Other than my dissapointment with the Bass not being a true stand up I was pretty happy with the sound.

Having the blend of all three channels is really giving me some great choices and combinations durning mix down.

Again thanks for the advice guys.

Paul

[#19]

Shoeps mic with MK41 Hyper cardiod capsule sound fabulous! I use DI for info 150hz and below and hi pass the mic about 160.

Royer 122 is also perfect!