Multiple sound guys at a show - who's responsible for board settings?

[warpfile]

Hey guys,

I'm heading off to mix one of my bands at a festival tonight, and last time around a question struck me.

When I was the house sound man for a little club I had sound guys for bands come in all the time. I let them free reign at the board, knowing that I had jotted down important settings for the bands I had soundchecked earlier.

Now I travel with this one band, and I am the 'outside mixing man' all of a sudden. Last time around, I jotted down all the settings for the band that played after us (who had finished their soundcheck earlier). And I recalled all those settings after we had finished playing. While I still think this was nice of me, I'm wondering if I'm being overly polite.

What's the general rule of thumb here? How do you guys handle it? Is every sound man responsible for his settings, or is the outside mixer responsible for making himself as invisible and un-obnoxious as possible?

Thanks a lot in advance for your answers and insights

[deathisnotacolor]

Originally Posted by warpfile

Is every sound man responsible for his settings?

that.
at least from my experience.

[jude]

most festival gigs ive done its a bit of a free for all. that said, ive mixed supports at smaller shows where the FOH guy for the headliner insists on a fader mix only for support bands.

this is why i love digital desks

[StratSvante]

I think a little of both, I as a FOH guy would never trust that another engineer had recalled all the settings correctly so I would still check everything but I would apreciate the effort.

Be nice, and do what you can to help the other guy out in the time that you have.

[warpfile]

Originally Posted by jude

most festival gigs ive done its a bit of a free for all. that said, ive mixed supports at smaller shows where the FOH guy for the headliner insists on a fader mix only for support bands.

Wow, that's harsh :/
I've mixed supports where the headliner gave me a whole set of channels on his huge console

this is why i love digital desks

I know, that's why I've bought a digital desk for myself. My questions apply to analog consoles of course

Originally Posted by StratSvante

I think a little of both, I as a FOH guy would never trust that another engineer had recalled all the settings correctly so I would still check everything but I would apreciate the effort.

Be nice, and do what you can to help the other guy out in the time that you have.

That's the way I see it, basically

[jude]

Originally Posted by warpfile

Wow, that's harsh :/
I've mixed supports where the headliner gave me a whole set of channels on his huge console

ive had shows like that two, however it is the one show where i was given no access to anything other than the faders that sticks in my memory. i was the system tech too, i was soo tempted to turn off half the subs after my set

[therealbigd]

Do the gig, mutes on and leave, no need to put the board back how it was.

The house guy is being paid to work all night, not work in soundcheck then stand easy the rest of the night.

[warpfile]

Yeah, I know what you mean.

At the show yesterday when it came to our soundcheck the house guy was actually really thankful that I had recall sheets with me, and I jotted down the settings for him. After we were done playing, and the band tore down their rigs I recalled his settings for him - while he positioned microphones and so on.

Even though I checked everything twice, I forgot to turn down a send to one of the monitors. The other guy (who was pretty old but apparently inexperienced) was really confused about the band's complaints, so I dialed the monitor down real quick for him.

So this shows in a way that and why in the end everyone should be responsible for (and know!) their own settings. However, the other guy really appreciated my help. The band I'm with often plays the same venues, too, so maybe it can't hurt to be remembered as "the helpful guy"

Oh yeah, next time we play a similar venue I think I'll just hook up my own mixer. This should actually take less time than all that jotting/recalling business - and is probably more hassle-free in the end

[Remoteness]

First of all, you're my kind of folk.

It's not the norm, but a very cool thing to do, even when it's not always appreciated.

Most band (guest) engineers just do their thang and move on, but every now and then you find a guy or gal that's thinking about the bigger picture and not just their own situation.

If I was the house sound engineer I'd expect the guest engineer to follow the rules I presented at the top of the work day.

In any event, it sounds like you're mixing on a lot of analog desks.
As you already know, this really isn't applicable with digital consoles and such.

All I can say is do what feels best; I'm sure you'll do the right thing.

...At least your Karma will be on point;-)

Originally Posted by warpfile

Hey guys,

I'm heading off to mix one of my bands at a festival tonight, and last time around a question struck me.

When I was the house sound man for a little club I had sound guys for bands come in all the time. I let them free reign at the board, knowing that I had jotted down important settings for the bands I had soundchecked earlier.

Now I travel with this one band, and I am the 'outside mixing man' all of a sudden. Last time around, I jotted down all the settings for the band that played after us (who had finished their soundcheck earlier). And I recalled all those settings after we had finished playing. While I still think this was nice of me, I'm wondering if I'm being overly polite.

What's the general rule of thumb here? How do you guys handle it? Is every sound man responsible for his settings, or is the outside mixer responsible for making himself as invisible and un-obnoxious as possible?

Thanks a lot in advance for your answers and insights

[huub]

Being as un-obnoxious as possible is always smart I think, you never know if you need someones help in the future, and also, being nice makes life more pleasant in general..

But I'm a hippy

[warpfile]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

First of all, you're my kind of folk.

It's not the norm, but a very cool thing to do, even when it's not always appreciated. Most band (guest) engineers just do their thang and move on, but every now and then you find a guy or gal that's thinking about the bigger picture and not just their own situation.

Thanks, I'm glad you appreciate my approach, and I'm sure it's probably more appreciated than not in the long run.

In any event, it sounds like you're mixing on a lot of analog desks.
As you already know, this really isn't applicable with digital consoles and such.

Oh, I tend to work with whatevers there at the venue. I'd say around here it's about 80% analog desks. I'm doing this at semi-pro level, so it's lots of smaller venues with no million-dollar-choose-what-you-read-about-in-the-glossy-magazines type of budget

Whenever I can, I set up my own little rig (when I'm the guy responsible for all the sound stuff, or when the equipment on location is really not up to par. However, I remember one occasion where I HAD to bring my own stuff because the headlining band's mixer wouldn't allow us to use their board, because it's been "set up correctly for them". When we arrived it turned out it was this big ass digital console.

They still took forever to soundcheck, I distinctly remember that getting the high toms to sound right in the keyboard players inears took them like 10 minutes.

Either they didn't know about the save button or they were just being unfriendly.

All I can say is do what feels best; I'm sure you'll do the right thing.

...At least your Karma will be on point;-)

Originally Posted by huub

Being as un-obnoxious as possible is always smart I think, you never know if you need someones help in the future, and also, being nice makes life more pleasant in general..

But I'm a hippy

I know, that's my stance. Maybe I'm a hippy too. I just don't wanna be the hippy that's gets laughed at because everyone's taking advantage of him

[bishopthomas]

As a band engineer (BE) on a headlining tour I would always zero out the console. I'm not going anywhere until the crowd clears out anyway, I might as well do something constructive. On the few shows I've done as support act I wouldn't zero anything. Each engineer is not only responsible for recalling their own settings, but the process of doing it helps realize that everything's in order (or not). If I had to share a couple of channels with the headliner we coordinated it so that they would be channels that I only needed the fader for. If something happened and I had to make adjustments I made sure to put it back the way I found it (something I tend to do in life in general, kind of an OCD thing).

I don't do much walk in guest engineering anymore but when I do, and it's a festival, there's going to be some kind of digital console there. Last night was a PM5D. I hit the Mute All button and walked away to deal with clearing the stage.

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

As a band engineer (BE) on a headlining tour I would always zero out the console. I'm not going anywhere until the crowd clears out anyway, I might as well do something constructive. On the few shows I've done as support act I wouldn't zero anything. Each engineer is not only responsible for recalling their own settings, but the process of doing it helps realize that everything's in order (or not). If I had to share a couple of channels with the headliner we coordinated it so that they would be channels that I only needed the fader for. If something happened and I had to make adjustments I made sure to put it back the way I found it (something I tend to do in life in general, kind of an OCD thing).

I don't do much walk in guest engineering anymore but when I do, and it's a festival, there's going to be some kind of digital console there. Last night was a PM5D. I hit the Mute All button and walked away to deal with clearing the stage.

Sure, if you're headline then you may as well zero it as there's nothing to do until the room is empty anyway. But for support acts, it's different. I leave it setup, actually because things are never quite the same as when you soundchecked, and the EQ on the vocal might actually be doing a really good job of surpressing feedback.

[GZsound]

I always have a chat with the house engineer and ask them what they prefer..

Usually they just tell me to mute and leave, but at least I offer to return the board to where it was when I got there.

Fairly easy to just ask.

[StewartFang]

Originally Posted by therealbigd

Sure, if you're headline then you may as well zero it as there's nothing to do until the room is empty anyway. But for support acts, it's different. I leave it setup, actually because things are never quite the same as when you soundchecked, and the EQ on the vocal might actually be doing a really good job of surpressing feedback.

Agreed...things are never the same as soundcheck....and I also go through every channel as thouroughly as I can during changeover...but at this point I expect things to be changed once I arrive there....and digital consoles are definitely not immune from this either...5D's especially have some ghosts...however, they can be pretty great...as long as you have a FOH tech that knows the gig and the console.

But what do you mean about eq surpressing feedback ?...at FOH, this is rarely a concern...unless it;s a lav mic at a corporate event where the speaker keeps talking quiter the more you put them in the house...otherwise though at festivals esp. there shouldn;t be any concern of feedback in the house

[therealbigd]

Originally Posted by StewartFang

Agreed...things are never the same as soundcheck....and I also go through every channel as thouroughly as I can during changeover...but at this point I expect things to be changed once I arrive there....and digital consoles are definitely not immune from this either...5D's especially have some ghosts...however, they can be pretty great...as long as you have a FOH tech that knows the gig and the console.

What I mean is, if I'm sharing strips with another band, I sometimes leave stuff where it is and see how it sounds, then change to what I had if it sucks. Sometimes, once the venue's filled up a bit, and the amp's heated up a bit/ drum head has been changed, the mic's been knocked to the side a bit, etc.. it can sound very different, so I often see how the last guy's settings sound.

If we're talking festivals and stuff though, what the fck is an analogue desk?

Not a big fan of the 5D but the D5, yes please. I think the Digico's tend to be the ones that do the least weird stuff of all popular digitals.


But what do you mean about eq surpressing feedback ?...at FOH, this is rarely a concern...unless it;s a lav mic at a corporate event where the speaker keeps talking quiter the more you put them in the house...otherwise though at festivals esp. there shouldn;t be any concern of feedback in the house[/QUOTE]

sorry I was speaking as somebody who usually does monitors. my bad.

[joeshambro]

If I'm getting my own channels -- where I soundcheck and then don't have to share all night, either as support or headliner -- I always zero my channels before leaving, even if I didn't walk into soundcheck to them that way. My personal policy is to leave the board ready for the next guy the way I'd want it.

If I'm having to share channels, regardless if it's recalling them to my own settings (me mixing headliner and sharing inputs with a support engineer) or recalling to the headliner's settings (me mixing support and using their inputs post-soundcheck), I take photos of all channels I have to share that have already been checked and recall to where the other band's engineer left them when I'm done (or recall to my pre-support-check settings). I also chart the graphic house EQ and any monitor EQ.

For digital desks, I either recall to the blank festival patch or mute all and walk away, depending on what the stage FOH asks of me. Your job in festival situations is to get out of the way and let the crew change over as quickly as possible.

[warpfile]

I just wanna thank everybody for their input! Nice to see how other people approach this!

[Murton]

I've been in both situations.

House engineer:
Any changes to the graphic I expect to be undone by the guest engineer and any inserts to be returned to their original channels/auxes/groups and any FX to their original patch. Channel group/VCA assingments back to normal would also be nice. But otherwise EQ and faders can be left as is, I know most of those levels from soundcheck anyway and aren't as time consuming to redo.
If it's digital inhouse I get guest engineers to save a scene for themselves and repatch anything they change back to normal. One thing I haven't worked around yet is BGM recall safe, I need to keep the BGM patch and mute status etc recall safe but I haven't done so on my standard scene for my LS9 yet. It's annoying when a guest engineer recalls his scene and the BGM goes back to mute.

Guest engineer:
I'll return comp etc patches back to normal, group/VCA assingments and FX patches back to normal, I'll take down my mics and plug in the house mics back to where they were.

Above all I'll ask the inhouse guy what he prefers and try and make as little of an impact to the standard setup as possible and if I do change anything I'll make sure it's put back to where it should be and how it was.

As an inhouse guy with my own nice rig I've had a few guest engineers through and so far every single one bar one have been completely disrespectful of the equipment, demanding things to be fixed when they create problems themselves and being completely rude about everything they do.

Not once have I had a guest engineer contact me before a gig, not once have they brought stage plots and input lists with them or sent them ahead of time without being asked.

Their general attitude has been horrendous, taking far too long to soundcheck and change over, resulting in all the other bands to have their sets cut short.

So if you are going to be a guest engineer somewhere, communicate well in advance, be friendly and actually take responsibility for your band/s. It is not my job to fix your keyboard rig outputs, fix your shitty microphones, fix your terrible onstage patching when you change the normal neat patching, change the local inputs to be where they should be because you unplugged a vital input for your talkback mic.

As a result, I have a running list of engineers who are no longer allowed to operate on my rig due to their rudeness, inability to mix to the equipment and room and their lack of communication skills. Turning up unannounced with your own mic kit requiring 37 inputs at a 150 person gig and then taking 2 hours to soundcheck and another 30 minutes during the 15 minute changeover between the two bands you are mixing even though they are using the same backline is a sure way to not be welcome at many places in the industry.