classical piano

[chris81]

Hello
Im a classical pianist and I want to make my first commercial cd. For max flexibility I want to be my own recording engineer and use the money for equipment. Im aware that its a big job learning it, and I know that equipment is not first priority. Anyway, I need the equipment and want to buy the right things from beginning.

My budget is around 5000-6000$.
I have access to middle-sized concert hall with good acoustics and a Steinway D.
I would like to use a dedicated recorder like the Tascam DR-680 to avoid noise from laptop.

My questions:
- How much should be used respectively on preamps, a/d-converter, mics, cables, recorder?
(maybe 3000$ for mics and 3000$ for recorder, preamps, cables etc.)
- What are the quality of the DR-680 preamps, do you know better alternatives of all-in-one recorders? Sound devices 722?
- Maybe seperately preamps and a/d-converter with digital signal to a cheap harddisk recorder?

possible setup:
- Tascam DR-680 (digital recorder) 1200 $
- DAV BG-1 (preamp) 700$
- mics? 3000 $

another possible setup:
- DAV BG-1 preamp
- some cheap recorder with digital in
- a/d converter with digital output to recorder
- mics


For mics I would like a flexible selection of omnis and cardioids (and maybe also fig8). But that will probably be a future thread, where I think I will choose maybe 3 mics and listen to them side by side.

I hope that someone has some inputs to this. Thank you

[joelpatterson]

For a budget like the one you have in mind, you could probably get at least ten or twelve albums recorded by a pro in your area, but I admire the impulse to take the reins yourself-- although dividing your concentration between the 'performing' and the 'listening to how the equipment is capturing the performing,' that can be tricky.

Here's an example of two Sputniks and two Earthworks on a Steinway, Sytek pre's into an Alesis HD24... Mogami cables, too...


Tindeck MP3 Hosting: March Sonata - selections from Saturday's concert

[John Willett]

Classical piano is what I record most often.

The mics I use are all omnis:-

Analogue:-
Sennheiser MKH 8020.
Sennheiser MKH 20

AES42 Digital:-
Sennheiser MKH 8020 + MZD 8000
Neumann KM-D + KK131
Neumann KM 183-D

I record to a Nagra VI.

If you use digital mics you don't need a mic. pre. and the recorder can be much cheaper as you are only using it for a bit bucket (just so long as it has an AES3 input).

So a pair of Sennheiser MKH 8020 + MZD 8000, or a pair of Neumann KM-D + KK131 would probably be the best bet. Use these with a Neumann DMI-2 (or DMI-2P) interface into an inexpensive recorder or onto a laptop will give you the best value for your budget.

This assumes you are recording something like a Steinway Model D in a good acoustic and want the natural sound of the piano.


May last CD was recorded with the KK 131s + KM-D and the four previous to that were with the KM 183-D (as Neumann did not have the KK 131 head out when I did those).

The next will be with the MKH 8030s (as I have just got these) or with the KK 131s again.

This is my MKH 8020 pair with a single MZD 8000:-


Positioning - I normally start with 20cm spaced omnis about ear height about 2-metres away from the piano and then adjust to suit the music, the piano and the room.

I hope this helps.

[Plush]

Pianists are usually having their hands full ! playing the piano.

For the best recorded result, please stick to playing the piano and get a real recordist to make your record.

Sorry, but that is the way the pros do it.

SAve your money and buy Apple stock instead.

[ghellquist]

First part here:

Don´t forget the rest of the job. Editing, mastering, making CD folder, actually making the CD and actually selling the result.

As you probably already know, commercial classical records today often enough has literally hundreds of edits. It takes tools ( a program in your PC ) and experience and patience and plenty of notes to make this happen. Good listening equipment such as a decent room and loudspeakers are needed as well.

Mastering is also a bit of process, at least the first few times. You need to add ISRC codes and what-not in order to get to the final result. And if you have ever done the artwork for a folder, CD legends, crystal case tray and front page you know that it takes a few tools in addition to experience.

Well, a lot of work detracting from making music.

Regardless, if you want to go ahead, second part will be my take on equipment.

// Gunnar

[ghellquist]

Second part, my take on equipment.

First of all, every part of the chain has to reach a certain minimum level in order to be useable. Recording a large piano is among the more difficult things to do so you need a pretty high level of quality. It will fit within your budget and there are many different to choose from.

Above that mininum level it is all about taste and personal preferences. It is more like choosing an instrument, this or that make and individual piano works better for different types of music and you might like it more or less. The only way to really know which you like better is to test and try.

Well, what you need then is probably the following:

A mic stand. Sturdy and yet transportable. High enough- Look at K&M as a starting point.

Shock absorber for the mics. Look no further than Rycote.

Two omni microphones unless you preferr two cardioid mics (taste again). Typical contenders might be Sennheiser, DPA or Schoeps (taste again) among the small diameter mics. Or you might be one the people preferring large diameter mics (taste again).

A good recorder might be the 702 (no need for the inbuilt hard-disc), add two extra of the largest Sony batteries and you are ready to roll. Or a Nagra. Or a different box + en external preamp and maybe an exteran AD convterter. Taste again.

Cables is the least of the problem, any cables with real Neutrik connectors will do, nothing esoteric, but stay away from the budget stuff.

Add good listening on location. Really good headphones might work, but I strongly recommend a pair of nearfield monitors in addition, I find that headphones and speakers reveal different things about a recording. Which brand and model to choose from is taste again.

First of all though, start by listening a lot to recordings with "engineering" ears, listening for balance and sound and squeks from the pedal and reverb tails and so on. Not listening to the music actually is difficult. The idea is to be able to hear when it is right, before starting to experiment.

It is often possible to rent mics at a rather low daily rate in order to check out several. Recorders usually are expensive to rent.

// Gunnar

[RobAnderson]

Don´t forget the rest of the job. Editing, mastering, making CD folder, actually making the CD and actually selling the result.

Amen. I have found that for every hour of recording, there will be two or three of editing.

FWIW, the DR-680 is OK, but you would definitely want mic pre's and converters as a front end to it. The stock mic amps/conversion are OK for documentary stuff, but are not up to par for a commercial release. My advice would be to get the Sound Devices instead. Get a pair of John Hardy M-2 mic amps ($1805) or even the Twin Servo ($2450), Mytek Stereo ADC ($1000) and a pair of decent omni's - MKH8020's or Schoeps (MK2 or MK2S depending on the hall - about $3000).

I'll echo the advice given by Plush. It is really hard (though not impossible) to make a good recording and give a good performance when your attention is divided. I know this because I have done it.

Not to mention the fact that having another good set of musical ears (as well as technical ears) to objectively listen while you play is an indispensable element of a successful recording session.

[PoxyMusic]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

A good recorder might be the 702 (no need for the inbuilt hard-disc), add two extra of the largest Sony batteries and you are ready to roll. Or a Nagra. Or a different box + en external preamp and maybe an exteran AD convterter. Taste again.

Agree with this...the DR680 is a pretty good recorder for the price, but not quite up to the task of capturing the dynamics of classical piano (unless you use external mic pres and a/d)

I own a DR680, so no gear snobbery on my part...just being honest.

[9sbean]

Originally Posted by chris81

Hello
Im a classical pianist and I want to make my first commercial cd. For max flexibility I want to be my own recording engineer and use the money for equipment. Im aware that its a big job learning it, and I know that equipment is not first priority. Anyway, I need the equipment and want to buy the right things from beginning.

My budget is around 5000-6000$.
I have access to middle-sized concert hall with good acoustics and a Steinway D.
I would like to use a dedicated recorder like the Tascam DR-680 to avoid noise from laptop.

My questions:
- How much should be used respectively on preamps, a/d-converter, mics, cables, recorder?
(maybe 3000$ for mics and 3000$ for recorder, preamps, cables etc.)
- What are the quality of the DR-680 preamps, do you know better alternatives of all-in-one recorders? Sound devices 722?
- Maybe seperately preamps and a/d-converter with digital signal to a cheap harddisk recorder?

possible setup:
- Tascam DR-680 (digital recorder) 1200 $
- DAV BG-1 (preamp) 700$
- mics? 3000 $

another possible setup:
- DAV BG-1 preamp
- some cheap recorder with digital in
- a/d converter with digital output to recorder
- mics


For mics I would like a flexible selection of omnis and cardioids (and maybe also fig8). But that will probably be a future thread, where I think I will choose maybe 3 mics and listen to them side by side.

I hope that someone has some inputs to this. Thank you

You got a good budget. Go for the top notch:
Sound Devices 702/722 recorder with top quality mic pre inside already. 1800~2500.
Schoeps MK2S/MK21/MK22(Any one pair)+CMC6 + Shock mount 3,700~4,000?
Sennheiser HD25-1-II monitoring headphone, $200
And you're set.

Keep the system simple and top quality, then you can concerntrate on the piano.

[chris81]

Thank you all for some fast answers - I really appreciate this.
Actually I was told that the price for having a pro to do this was about the same price as my budget. Im of course aware of the big big job this is, also in post-process, but I hope to learn and I will then have a posibility of making more recordings afterwards, maybe even start to earn a little bit of money in this way.

For post-process I have experience in editing. Im also very experienced doing graphic work - so Im actually not worried there, although Im perfectly aware its a big job!!

Already now, I will buy some cheap mics to learn a little bit more about mic positioning - omni vs. card. and so on. I have a zoom h4n with phantom power to test with.
From my searching and listening all over the internet I think I prefer omnis - maybe with a jecklin disc. But of course I need to listen and learn.

My plan before recording in the autumn is to use a whole day (maybe more) in the concert-hall, testing equipment, mic positions, recording tecniques etc. Maybe together with my childhood friend who is a sound-editor.
Then I will choose my equipment, know exactly how the setup should be, levels and so on, and on the recording day I can concentrate on the important - music!

I would like to do the actual recording over maybe 5 days during maybe 2 months or so.
My old piano-professor, who recorded something like 15 cd's, from academy would like to listen every session with me.

I hope im not sounding naive - but I think I would like to do it this way.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Plush

Pianists are usually having their hands full ! playing the piano.

For the best recorded result, please stick to playing the piano and get a real recordist to make your record.

Sorry, but that is the way the pros do it.

Saveyour money and buy Apple stock instead.

I agree - I'm available

[NorseHorse]

piano Threads - Forum Tags by Zoints

Did you solicit proposals from engineers? Try Jobs Offered - Gearslutz.com

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by chris81

... Actually I was told that the price for having a pro to do this was about the same price as my budget....

You could easily find someone who would charge you twice or three times as much, if you ask around enough...

[fifthcircle]

You could probably find a pro pretty easily to do it for that budget. Not sure about the 10-12 disc thing as I have no idea who would slave on an album for $500.

I can speak from experience as a performer. Hire somebody else to do the heavy lifting of the session. Do not try to do this on your own. Something will suffer- either the recording or the performance (or both). As a performer, the last thing you want is to be distracted.

I don't know where you're located, but there are a lot of people on this board who could probably help you out from engineer to producing to editing and post.

--Ben

[Corran]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I don't know where you're located, but there are a lot of people on this board who could probably help you out from engineer to producing to editing and post.

--Ben

Yep, if you let us know where you are located there might be an experienced recordist just down the road.

[Joelv]

Make sure to check out DPA mics:

DPA Microphones :: Miking a Grand Piano with DPA Microphones - Sound Examples
DPA Microphones :: Miking a Grand Piano - a Super Audio CD by DPA Microphones

[joelpatterson]

Is that why there's all these scars on my back? I hear screaming and bullwhips cracking, how long, how long...?

Really, the engineering perspective is this: while you are warming up with a sound check, your engineer is listening through the gear-- very slight adjustments of level, and this and that, make real substantial differences in the sound, in its "secretly appealing" quality, which is the whole game here.

How would you ever notice or be able to fine tune these things while you're simultaneously absorbed in your performance? Surely-- you can "hit record" and you'll get "a recording" of your playing, but that's not what you're after: you want every stage of the process, from the recording session on through the very critically important DAW editing and mixing phase to be maximized to its maximum-- and it takes alot of sleight of hand and "nuancing" to make the equipment disappear and just leave the performance, pure and delicious, so to say.

So that points up another thing, even after sinking 5 or 6 grand into the capture equipment, you'll still need to either find a studio or invest several more thousand dollars into the computer finishing/polishing/mastering part of the enterprise.

And if it's all a learning process as you go... well, who's to say, you could find you have a real knack for it. But as an approach to end up with a project with its potential fully realized... a long shot, really.

[didier.brest]

I heard several recent professional piano recordings that are not technically as good as the recent one from Nathan Shirley (despite a low budget gear), which moreover, and overall, is artistically excellent.

[JonesH]

We were recording a so-so grand in a nice mid-size wooden hall and as a starting point used 4003s. However much we moved them around, we never found a timbre that suited the instrument. Changed to a pair of 4015 - presto! Instant happy.
Be sure to have the possibility to try out some mics.

And I also agree that you should get someone to do the recording. Another set of ears can be invaluable.

[chris81]

I have another set of ears - my earlier piano professor, who will be attending every session - but thats of course from a musical point of view and not a technical.
I was not afraid of having a divided focus, because I planned to do all the settings, levels, etc. for the particular hall and piano before the actual recording day.

But after all your statements it seems like my whole project is maybe a bad idea and I should hire the technician who gave me an offer already. Price will be about the same.

Anyway I would like to learn more about recording

[fifthcircle]

There is nothing wrong with learning to record. It is something that I encourage all musicians to get at least somewhat of a handle on. The more you know, the less likely you are to have issues when doing serious sessions. I would absolutely invest in some gear and start recording yourself and others on a regular basis.

That being said, a CD project is a completely different beast and one where your full attention needs to be on the performance. I would even venture to say that a recital is a similar situation as well. Anything that can distract you in those situations will. If the performance distracts from the recording, you end up with a bad recording. If the recording distracts from the performance, why even bother? Trust me, I've learned this one multiple times from experience and there is a reason why I refuse to do both anymore.

A session should be a collaboration. Not in the performance sence, but between performer, a producer who is going to get the best performance possible out of the performer and an engineer who is going to make sure that the recording matches everybody's artistic visions. Then and only then will a session be a complete success.

--Ben

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

There is nothing wrong with learning to record. It is something that I encourage all musicians to get at least somewhat of a handle on. The more you know, the less likely you are to have issues when doing serious sessions. I would absolutely invest in some gear and start recording yourself and others on a regular basis.

That being said, a CD project is a completely different beast and one where your full attention needs to be on the performance. I would even venture to say that a recital is a similar situation as well. Anything that can distract you in those situations will. If the performance distracts from the recording, you end up with a bad recording. If the recording distracts from the performance, why even bother? Trust me, I've learned this one multiple times from experience and there is a reason why I refuse to do both anymore.

A session should be a collaboration. Not in the performance sense, but between performer, a producer who is going to get the best performance possible out of the performer and an engineer who is going to make sure that the recording matches everybody's artistic visions. Then and only then will a session be a complete success.

--Ben

Agreed.

Most of my piano recording sessions are the pianist, the producer and me.

I get the sound - the producer concentrates on the notes and keeping the performer happy and the performer can concentrate on getting the best performance unhindered by other things.

[Celloman]

Chris,
Some well known classical musicians do their own engineering and producing but with the assistance of an engineer only for the initial set up. Depending on the importance of the recording and it's purpose, this may be a viable midway between doing it yourself and hiring out.

If your not experienced with the post production, it may be fun to have a professional do it, and you try to shadow the work. That's how I got into it about 25 years ago. I had produced a demo with a skilled engineer, and then I went home and redid the entire project myself to try to learn the skills, meanwhile getting some mentoring from other famed producers. The rest is experience and there is not much you can do to substitute that!

I say, get involved. Get the gear and hire somebody. But only if you really think you could dig spending time learning the trade. Get some used gear and save some coin. If the hall is a good recording venue, a nice pair of omnis, a good preamp, AD converter, and some storage, a great pair of headphones...

Mike

[Kees de Visser]

Noone mentioned a piano tuner ?
Always good to have one either permanently present or at least stand-by within 30 min.

[ohmoka]

Originally Posted by Plush

Pianists are usually having their hands full ! playing the piano.

For the best recorded result, please stick to playing the piano and get a real recordist to make your record.

Sorry, but that is the way the pros do it.

SAve your money and buy Apple stock instead.

+1 thumbsup

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Kees de Visser

Noone mentioned a piano tuner ?
Always good to have one either permanently present or at least stand-by within 30 min.

Actually a piano technician is better - I try to have one on tap if the budget allows.

[chris81]

Okay, thank you everybody.
The advice for me seems pretty simple then - leave it to the pros and I will do so. I spoke to the local sound engineer today and he pretty much adviced me the same way.

But anyway I would like to get into recording piano and chamber music, maybe also choir - for small concerts, rehearsals, demos etc. NOT commercial use.

What would be the best mic suggestion for getting started - when my budget for that is limited to 500$? (I can't really find something used gear in my area)

I was wondering about the oktava mk-012, røde nt5, mxl 603/604 and Studio projects c4 mkII.

What would work okay for piano?

[joelpatterson]

Of those choices, the Octava's are probably the most "serious, fluid, serene and direct," if any of those adjectives make sense. Put up a set of those in ORTF and you'll have a devastating set-up for all those "people in a defined zone" types of situations you mention.

[didier.brest]

The choice between the Oktava MK-012 and the Rode NT5 is mostly a matter of taste. Some samples:
in cardio
Rode
Oktava

in omni (more recent takes, not to be compared to the cardio takes)
Rode
Oktava

The reliability from Rode is better.

Nathan Shirley got a used pair of Shure KSM 141 within your budget and achieved a professional grade result.

[piano]

You will have disappointing results if you do it yourself. But find out for yourself and burn through $6k.

Lots of pros out there willing to do the work for a lot less with something you can not buy - experience.

Originally Posted by chris81

Hello
Im a classical pianist and I want to make my first commercial cd. For max flexibility I want to be my own recording engineer and use the money for equipment. Im aware that its a big job learning it, and I know that equipment is not first priority. Anyway, I need the equipment and want to buy the right things from beginning.

My budget is around 5000-6000$.
I have access to middle-sized concert hall with good acoustics and a Steinway D.
I would like to use a dedicated recorder like the Tascam DR-680 to avoid noise from laptop.

My questions:
- How much should be used respectively on preamps, a/d-converter, mics, cables, recorder?
(maybe 3000$ for mics and 3000$ for recorder, preamps, cables etc.)
- What are the quality of the DR-680 preamps, do you know better alternatives of all-in-one recorders? Sound devices 722?
- Maybe seperately preamps and a/d-converter with digital signal to a cheap harddisk recorder?

possible setup:
- Tascam DR-680 (digital recorder) 1200 $
- DAV BG-1 (preamp) 700$
- mics? 3000 $

another possible setup:
- DAV BG-1 preamp
- some cheap recorder with digital in
- a/d converter with digital output to recorder
- mics


For mics I would like a flexible selection of omnis and cardioids (and maybe also fig8). But that will probably be a future thread, where I think I will choose maybe 3 mics and listen to them side by side.

I hope that someone has some inputs to this. Thank you