Can a mixer at unity gain affect audio quality?

[mustardeer]

i got a pretty high end mobile set up, all except for the mixer, i'm using a cheap passive 8 channel mackie. If i'm bypassing mackie's preamps and all levels are at unity does the mixer affect the sound in any way? Is there a point to get a high end mixer for live rock shows? if so what brand would that be? i might grab a 16 channel one. The only reason i'm asking is because in the studio obviously some spend thousands on a neve desk, is analog summing a factor in live sound?

[John Willett]

Any analogue circuitry will affect quality.

However, having a mixer at unity gain (especially if you by-pass the EQ) will affect it the least.

Expensive Neve mixers and the like will affect it more due to all the circuitry. But that is what they want when they choose the mixer.


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[mustardeer]

that's kinda what i thought but i was looking more for an advice from the field. can you really hear the difference between a high end mixer and a cheap one in this example? i have really good ears.

[rcrowley]

Can you tell us which Mackie model you are talking about? I don't think they make any that are truly "passive". And all the Mackie models I am familiar with use pads to create "line-level inputs" that actually still go through the mic preamps. Mackie continues to refine their mic preamps, but no matter how good they get them, I don't think they will ever have the reputation of the "boutique" brands simply because of their heritage and ubiquity. But I am not as much an audio "snob" as some of my friends. :-/

Although I haven't encountered it the way I use my Mackie mixers (1604VLZ and 1402VLZ), the reported primary vulnerability is the line-level mixing bus (the summing amplifier, specifically). The reputation is that it doesn't have much usable headroom so you must be very careful about keeping levels from overloading.

I don't have anything to do with rock/pop music, but I would surmise that in the "heat of battle", babysitting those kinds of vulnerabilities would be inconvenient and distracting at best.

In a live setting, physical and electronic "robustness", reliability and ease of operation would be the important factors. While in a studio setting, other things like sonic clarity, low noise, etc. would be more valuable, at least IMHO. But if you have "really good ears" and the final product sounds good, then I wouldn't sweat it.

At least that is my two-cents (inflation-adjusted).

[GZsound]

I seriously doubt that in a live rock show, the difference in sound quality between a Mackie, Soundcraft, Neve, Yamaha, etc. mixer could be heard or discerned.

There is so much ambient noise in a live concert setting that any possible sonic difference would be impossible to hear.

For small format mixers, I personally like the Soundcraft line because they use their high end preamps in even their smallest boards. I have Soundcraft, Yamaha and Allen & Heath mixers and they all sound good for live shows and I honestly could not tell you which sounds best.

[mustardeer]

thank you boys that's what I needed to hear. My mixer is Mackie - 802-VLZ3. My lead vocals are going through Shure Beta 87A ( the condenser model ) into UA 2-610 into UA 1176 ( not plugin ), into Mackie's insert out to QSC GX5 and JBL MRX 515s. And using Samsun power amp for my Yamaha monitor. Just did sound for 11 local bands last night and everyone said it sounded amazing... But i'd like to get a 16 channel mixer, just in case.

BTW everyone was saying not to get a condenser mic because of feedback but I had no problems and got plenty of volume from my floor monitor and the condenser was significantly better sounding that the EV ND767A ( dynamic ) next to it. I might pick up another condenser. Not sure how the 58 became industry standard mic, maybe because of the price. So I might pick up a 16 channel Soundcraft. Btw are Allen & Heath mixers considered inferior to the Mackies? They look so pretty What do the big boys use? Like at 2000+ venues? I mean the next step up from Soundcraft?

[GZsound]

Allen & Heath mixers are considered great professional mixers. Mackie rates around the Yamaha MG series. Soundcraft is considered very professional also, although they make some smaller mixers that you don't see in professional use much.

The Soundcraft FX16, for example, is a great sounding mixer, but with Allen & Heath you get more aux sends, and more flexible EQ.

In the last ten years I have had two Mackie mixers...both now gone. Now it's Soundcraft, Yamaha and Allen & Heath for me.

[mixedupsteve]

The 58 became the standard because it is almost indestructible and you can put them in front of almost anyone at still get a good sound. I like condensers too on acoustic stuff, jazz etc. They're slightly delicate though.

2000+ cap venues are almost all digital now and have speaker processing racks etc. When you get into that type show and above it's a slightly different world.

[valthesoundman]

Originally Posted by mustardeer

So I might pick up a 16 channel Soundcraft. Btw are Allen & Heath mixers considered inferior to the Mackies? They look so pretty What do the big boys use? Like at 2000+ venues? I mean the next step up from Soundcraft?

The big boys that haven't gone digital yet, probably go for a Midas every time. Another standard on those levels is the Yamaha PM series, also very good. These are high end desks in the live world.
I owned a Soundcraft GB4 and did a lot of shows on it, Pres and EQ sounded great, but big mixes from 16 channels above; and you could feel the summing having a hard time. Definitely not enough headroom on the mixbus.
Allen & Heath and Soundcraft compete in the mid-range. Both great desks, and from experience, survive time better than the Mackies, of which the Onyx range is the only contender.

You most definitely can hear the difference between a entry level and high end live sound desk on rock shows.
If you've got the cash, go for a Midas Venice 160.
You will NOT regret it.

If not, older Soundcrafts are really good!

[rwhealey]

I can't help but notice that you have a $2000 preamp and a $500/ea speakers - if you had spent $2500 on the speakers and used the preamps in your Mackie, you sound would significantly improve.

Speakers are the most important part of a sound reinforcement system.

That being said, I'm a fan of the APB ProRack mixer if you're looking for something small. It has variable HPFs on every channel, pre/post switches on every pair of AUXs, 3 main output buses (two mono, one stereo), four groups, and a nice EQ section.

[Repairproaudio]

Originally Posted by GZsound

I seriously doubt that in a live rock show, the difference in sound quality between a Mackie, Soundcraft, Neve, Yamaha, etc. mixer could be heard or discerned.

There is so much ambient noise in a live concert setting that any possible sonic difference would be impossible to hear.

For small format mixers, I personally like the Soundcraft line because they use their high end preamps in even their smallest boards. I have Soundcraft, Yamaha and Allen & Heath mixers and they all sound good for live shows and I honestly could not tell you which sounds best.

I repair and test pro audio equipment. A condenser mic will add more distortion to your audio. Why? Because the condenser microphone has a built in preamplifier. This built in preamplifier needs 48 volts from the mixer or mixing console power supply to operate. Condenser microphone can introduce power supply low frequency noise call hum. Some condenser microphone have a built in transformer which is use for matching the condenser microphone output impedance to the mixer or mixing console input impedance. Transformers do not pass high frequencies very well. Transformers and choke there are all coils of wires and there are use in switch power supplies and in car audio systems. In a switching power supply there are use for blocking high frequency noise from the switching power supply switching mosfet and in vehicles there are used for blocking the alternator high frequency noise. Alternator high frequency noise in a vehicle if not blocked can be heard in the vehicle audio speakers. The dynamic microphone or a microphone with out any built in preamplifier which also does not need 48 volts from the mixer or mixing console will have lower distortion which is important. Dynamic microphone will have a little higher noise floor than a condenser microphone. A properly working dynamic microphone noise floor is very difficult to hear to the none technical person. The fact that using the Shure Dynamic Microphone sounded cleaner, the reason, because it did not have any built in preamplifier. Distortion levels in any audio application is very important. Distortion in audio can be heard by any none technical person. This is why it is important to purchase audio and pro audio equipment with very low distortion for example distortion levels below point .05% T.H.D. and must be measured between 20Hz-20kHz ( 20Hz to 20kHz) also you do not want total harmonic distortion to be measured at 1kHz for example .05% @ 1kHz total harmonic distortion. Some manufactures measured Total Harmonic Distortion @ 1 kHz because it make their audio and pro audio equipment specifications look good.

[rcrowley]

A condenser mic will add more distortion to your audio.

Most of the very best microphones ever made are condenser. I can't say that I either agree with your statement, nor any of your supporting arguments. I don't know anybody who would agree with it, either.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by rcrowley

Most of the very best microphones ever made are condenser. I can't say that I either agree with your statement, nor any of your supporting arguments. I don't know anybody who would agree with it, either.

I agree with repairproaudio. All you folks with those crappy Neumann and Shoeps condensers may send them to me immediately for proper disposal.

[mustardeer]

yea the midas console does look amazing. last time i saw one this engineyes was mixing a show outside and it sounded like a 3 dollar radio shack sound. i wasn't expecting a miracle outdoors but it was just awful. he was sitting there all bored, i recognized the board n tried to chat him up cause he looked experienced. probably cause he had lots of wrinkles. all he said back was "don't touch anything". wtf, am i like a four year old or something? why would i touch? all i said was a polite "you couldn't afford me to touch anything but you should get someone you can cause it sounds like shit". i'm pretty cocky for a semi-newbie, i know

n yea dynamic mics not as noisy as condenser ones? that makes no sense to me. on stage my condensers sounds punchier and fuller than my dynamics. they cut through the mix much better. the only downside i can think of besides $$ is feedback issues. i've seen a U87 on stage swimming in reverb. don't know how they avoided feedback, prob EQ'd the ish out of it cause it didn't sound like the U87 in my studio, but it looked really effin cool.

i bought a soundcraft EPM 12 btw, it's a toy but so far i'm happy.

[mustardeer]

btw huge bummer the soundcraft doesn't have direct outs. what if i inserted a 1/4 into INSERT half way and the other end into my Apogee Ensemble? The signal would be unbalanced though.. would that work? that way i could record live as well and mix it in post..

[valthesoundman]

Really not the best solution. Half inserted jacks is not such a good idae, prone to either slide in or slide out mid show.
I would seriously consider a GB4 16 channel, or perhaps a A&H Mix Wizard?
You'll take a step up from your Mackie, whereas the FX16 isn't the best solution for you and I's be worried about long term reliability.

The highest of high end desks will sound terrible in unprofessional hands, and that guys response says a lot about his knowledge...