Seeking a fresh approach for upcoming jazz session

[Brad McGowan]

Hi all,

It's been a while since I started a thread. I went into lurker mode for the past year while I had been focusing on designing the Gain Train for Kush Audio, and I hadn't been recording much music. But I have sessions coming up and am anxious to get back into recording music again. At then end of the month I'll be doing a jazz session with a 4-piece band and was hoping to get some fresh ideas on how to approach the session. I personally find that I end up gravitating towards the same tried and true techniques and gear choices in my sessions. In the spirit of trying something new and mixing things up a little, I wanted to solicit new perspectives.

The band consists of drums, upright bass, electric guitar, and vibraphone and plays what they describe as "pretty straight forward, cool jazz". We will be tracking simultaneously to Radar and to my MCI JH-110A 1" 8-track (GP9 @ 15ips), and I intend to mix to 1/4" tape using my Studer. The console is a D&R Vision and I have plenty of outboard preamps as well (Pacifica, P1's, API's, True PT-2's, True P-Solo, Neve-ish stuff). The band wants to capture a classic 50's kind of jazz sound that captures the vibe and energy of the live performance. So room tone and bleed are welcome. I'm intending to stick as many of them as possible in my live room (18x21x11) and only isolate and use headphones as necessary. I have a feeling that will mean the bassist will go in my iso room.

For reference here's video from a previous session I did with the band, when they were only a 3-piece:

YouTube - Kana

I have a lot of good microphones at my disposal. Some of the applicable ones are: U67, U195, Joly-modded Oktava MK219PE, pair of modded ACM-1200 (C12-ish?), SF12, R121's, Shiny Box 46, RCA 77DX, pair of modded Oktava MC012's, CAD M179's, SM7B, ATM25, Heil PR30, Heil PR40, many dynamics by AKG, Shure, Sennheiser. There's a bunch more too. Some of the compressors in my rack: Daking FET II, UBK FATSO, GSSL, Aphex 661, ART Pro VLA, dbx 160x.

Considering that I will be limiting the number of tracks to eight (8), how would you approach capturing this band? What mics would you use? What preamps? Any compression? Where would you put the band in the room?

UPDATE: The album is done and can be heard here:
http://parksttrio.bandcamp.com

thanks,
Brad

[Jim Williams]

Since everyone plays live in the same room, I would avoid colored and various mic preamps. I would pick one transparent design and use it across the board. That way all the leakage will gell.

No compression should be used during tracking, not for jazz. Maybe a peak limiter to prevent tape overloads, with a high enough threshold to not be "heard".

[chris@theblue]

I agree, bass in iso

who's paying for the sess, mic them in stereo.

if the drummer is on the Quiet side, R. Haynes / B. Higgins

pair LDC or SDC on Drums OH,
one kick dynamic
one ribbon or dynamic on Guitar amp
pair LDC or SDC on vibes OH,
one LDC on the upright in the Iso

if the drummer is on the NOT So Quiet Side,
I would switch the vibe mics to md 421's to check the drum leakage

comp/limit the bass to tighten

I have a 2" i park open tracks next to the bass

peace

[Brad McGowan]

Jim--would you advise just using the console pres for everything? They are of course transformerless designs using THAT 1510 chips (actually it's INA or SSM chips). I know I personally upgraded four of the channels of the D&R with THAT chips, LME49860 op amps, and better electrolytics...those channels sound clean and fast at least. When comparing to my True preamps, the sound was very similar. So that gives me 7 channels of decent transformerless preamps right there.

I like the idea of no compression even just from an ease of setup perspective. A little limiting on the bass might not be a bad thing. Daking or Aphex perhaps?

Chris--thanks for your thoughts. I never thought to use MD421's on the vibes. I was kind of thinking SF12 myself. I do have 421's so it is an option. This drummer will likely be on the "not so quiet side" with his playing. The last time I recorded this group the drums dominated the sound in the room. Guitar leakage was a total non issue in the drum mics.

If I go with a dynamic on kick...ATM25, PR40, e602 are some options. Any preferences there? And why a dynamic over a ribbon or condenser?

U195 on bass? or something else?

Any thoughts about mismatching LDC on overheads? Thoughts on miking technique? I've always been partial to the Glyn Johns kind of thing for natual drum sounds.

thanks,
Brad

[u b k]

Maybe this will inspire, it was recorded by a friend in Finland, Andre Sumelius, who is also the man on drums. The only details I have are the ribbons you see, recorded to an RME UMX, with a Clariphonic on the mix.

Tonight at Noon performs "Jump Monk" by Charles Mingus on Vimeo




Gregory Scott - ubk

[Brad McGowan]

Cool video! Thanks Greg.

Looks like some SE ribbons on the trumpet and one of the saxes. R122V on tenor sax. It appears there is a C414 over the drummer's shoulder. Something like an M201 on snare maybe? Can't see the the kick drum mic although there appears to be one. Who knows what's on the organ...sounds great though. The imaging is very natural and honest. So simple!

Brad

[Snatchman]

Originally Posted by u b k

Maybe this will inspire, it was recorded by a friend in Finland, Andre Sumelius, who is also the man on drums. The only details I have are the ribbons you see, recorded to an RME UMX, with a Clariphonic on the mix.

Tonight at Noon performs "Jump Monk" by Charles Mingus on Vimeo




Gregory Scott - ubk

Good stuff Greg..!...

[Fabi]

A different approach would be to put the drummer in ithe iso.

I feel that vibes need a lot of space and sound odd to me when miced too close. So if the drummer is more of the dominant kind it might help.

Then maybe try a blumlein on the vibes if you feel like it, but try to set the artists up like in a concert situation other than facing each other if possible.
Set them up the way you will pan them later and throw in some room mics.
If the guitarist will let you ajust his volume you can try somewhat of an orchestral aproach with mains and supports.

On the vibes I would suggest the warmest sounding combination of mic and pres you have but I'd stay away from dynamic mics for that job.

As for the tape.. I like to record wihout SR where noise is not getting in your way too much. Let the tape work a bit for you and stay away from compression other than maybe the bass.

Just a few ideas here. I'd love to hear results if possible.

[Eli Resnick]

I'll give you a fresh perspective that has served me well:

Don't mike the drums.

Try it for a song. Mike everybody else.

Let the drummer kick.

I've had great results on rock by just pretending I wasn't mixing drums. It's a lot easier and more relaxing than trying to dial the drums out of everybody else's track and then spending an hour debating how to EQ the snare. Just tune the drums and pan everybody how you want everybody panned. The drums will be there.

Since your drummer is apparently a name guy, put a couple dummy ribbon mics over him to avoid hurt feelings. You can even record those to a chip recorder all night long, just in case, but I bet you'll never miss them.

Also, put the guitarist's amp on a small table, two feet in front of him, facing his pickups. Who else is tired of jazz recordings with electric guitars that sound like pianos? Give us a little low-level feedback on that Freddie Green comping. Let his solos sound like solos. Point your mic at the guitar's body to catch the way some slight feedback makes the wood resonate.

Don't isolate anybody. Suspend a mic from the bridge of the bass, pointing up. Put another one inside the sound-hole, surrounded by foam. This isn't original. The first part started with Mingus walking around to talk to his musicians. The second I learned from a GS thread by the engineer who recorded "Another Kind of Blue."

Put two ribbons on two guys equidistant to the drummer on opposite sides. Those tracks are going to be your primary drum L-R mix, so you know going in that you have to get those two players' levels even and wide pan them. The rest of your drum mics are unavoidable bleed into the cardioids you try to point away from the kit.

Listen back after the first take and consider changing the ribbons to cardioids, as well.

[FFTT]

What about hot jazz in front of a live audience?

I think a lot of what is missing today is the energy and magic
that's nearly impossible to capture without the whole live atmo.

[Fabi]

Originally Posted by FFTT

What about hot jazz in front of a live audience?

I think a lot of what is missing today is the energy and magic
that's nearly impossible to capture without the whole live atmo.

True..

Think Tom Waits Nighthawks at the diner. One of the nicest sounding records I know.

[FFTT]

People love watching a great performance and the band gets off
on the reaction of the audience.

Today, the medium has expanded beyond just doing a good job
capturing the audio, visual media is almost expected with nearly
every listener on the planet having mobile video access.

Even if you decide to keep everything in the studio,
capturing the session on film gives you options.

I always loved Tony Bennett's voice and his collections of recordings
are remarkable, but nothing is as cool as watching and listening
to those old pros tearing it up live without a net.

[chris@theblue]

I like the idea of no compression even just from an ease of setup perspective. A little limiting on the bass might not be a bad thing. Daking or Aphex perhaps?

Chris--thanks for your thoughts. I never thought to use MD421's on the vibes. I was kind of thinking SF12 myself. I do have 421's so it is an option. This drummer will likely be on the "not so quiet side" with his playing. The last time I recorded this group the drums dominated the sound in the room. Guitar leakage was a total non issue in the drum mics.

If I go with a dynamic on kick...ATM25, PR40, e602 are some options. Any preferences there? And why a dynamic over a ribbon or condenser?

U195 on bass? or something else?

Any thoughts about mismatching LDC on overheads? Thoughts on miking technique? I've always been partial to the Glyn Johns kind of thing for natual drum sounds.

thanks,
Brad[/QUOTE]

i use u195 on the bass, 1176 4:1 5db controls track bleed on tape,
if you dont have fringing, i wouldnt use comp/limit at all
when i have a loud drummer in the studio leaking too much into condencers,

try a mono OH on the ride side, get that happening, then sneak a SDC into the kit at the snare side. . .check phase. . .
or as snare side OH outside the hat

i have a small studio 25' x 30' x 18' I do similar sessions. . .

Yoshi's on the other hand
C
peace

[henryrobinett]

Good ideas! I really don't have much of anything to add. But I like being uniform on the mic pres. This is what I do. I'd iso bass or vibes if possible. I recorded Bobby Hutcherson playing live with our group..It can be a very soft instrument. Loud too!

[drumdre]

Hello everybody! Great thread. I'm André, the drummer in the "Tonight at Noon" video which Gregory posted. Imagine my surprise being a "lurker" here and finding our video posted on GS by the legendary Gregory Scott! Woah! I have to say, that Clariphonic sure is something else! I borrowed that unit to do this mix and after using it, I am definitely saving up to buy my own. If I had a Studer A80 I would sum and track directly to two track, and use the Clariphonic to make it sparkle some more. I record a lot in that little studio of mine, so I know I can't bash the drums in there if I want them (and everything else) to sound the way I want it to when I listen back to the recordings..

Anyway, I mixed this together with Lotta Westermarck, who was the engineer during the recording. The mic on the snare is actually not a Beyer 201 (which I actually recently acquired as well - great mic!) but rather an SDC, a Beyer MC930 which I had hoped would pick up some hi hat as well (it did). That is, in fact a 414 XLS overhead. No bass drum mic. The ribbon mics on the horns were recorded with the UFX pres, and I used two API 512c for the drums. The bass of the Leslie speaker of the organ was recorded with a MD421 through a Great River MP500NV with the treble having been recorded with another 414XLS through the remaining UFX pre, but we actually used the (very hot) line out signal from the organ as well, straight from the Italian Keybduo organ.

[Bassmankr]

It really depends on who is paying the bill and how much time you want to give to experimentation. Have everyone in the same room, circle arrangement, drums and bass next to each other, and no headphones will let them play as a normal group. Forget gobos as it will just throw the musos self balancing off from not being able to hear the whole space they are in and adjusting their playing accordingly. Good jazz musicians will self balance their levels and more importantly their tone when they can hear and see each other. Walk around while they are playing and use your ear to find the best spot to place a MS pair. With a good room and players that might be all you need. If you need more then keep saying "less is more" to yourself, three mics for the drums, one each for the other guys. In the old days of jazz recording they didn't have 15 mics on every source and the mic was not two inches from the source. The players just showed up and played through the whole song with very little editing if any afterwards. Basically they captured a performance in the old days. Check the net for old Benny Goodman Quintet / Lionel Hampton recording session info - photos as you may glean something from that. If you have any other reference recordings you are shooting for look them up too.

[Jim Williams]

Iso booths are not really good for jazz, the players need to be together and with full eye contact. It's not like you are playing to a click.

I like a pair of flat 1/2" overheads equal spaced and matched. Then add an RE-20 for kick. Place it carefully, you can EQ it later.

As much as a LDC may sound best for string bass, the leakage may kill you. Pick mics with a good high frequency null at the rear of the pattern and place it so it's rear is facing the drums. The small omni in the saddle works ok, some piezo bridge saddles are useful when blended with a mic. That way the tops can be present while using a dynamic for the low end to avoid cymbal leakage.

I like a 1/2" SDC on vibes, but watch cymbal leakage. I would also probably use an RE-20 on the guitar amp because it's smooth, open and revealing with those fast no-iron mic preamps and it doesn't have proximity effect. That way you can push/pull it in and out from the speaker without the low end changing around. It's a great mic on a jazz guitar amp.

More than likely the room sound will not be stellar, but if you have them, use extra tracks and mics on that. As a CYA type of guy, I would also place everything else I got out there, even doubling up some mics and sending them to any spare tracks. I would sync up the machines and send extra stuff to available digital tracks. You can always bounce to analog later for "flavor".

[narcoman]

great advice Jim. I'd add that for a bass a little half baffle can work wonders. I have one here specifically for bass and it works brilliantly.

[henryrobinett]

I don't know man. I hear what you're saying Jim, but I gotta say this -- I AM a jazz musician and a pretty serious one. I've played with a lot of great musicians. There's truth to what you're saying and not. It certainly can't be considered a standard way of going about things any more. Iso booths are what a lot of guys ask for these days. Yes there is the interaction which is crucial, but most of us play together a lot and we have the intuitive thing going on anyway. Most bass players I know, are really interested first and foremost in the integrity of their sound and will compromise for the booth.

You have to be wiling to see how the band feels about it. MOst guys do like to get in close so eye contact is good and they can hear the sound of their actual instruments instead of the phones. It just depends on how studio savvy they are -- and this goes for either end of the savviness.

[ArcCirDude]

Originally Posted by FFTT

What about hot jazz in front of a live audience?

I think a lot of what is missing today is the energy and magic
that's nearly impossible to capture without the whole live atmo.

Good call. From Frank in the studio (here) to The Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" DVD. Live gives that little extra incentive. It keeps you, whether musician or recordist, on your toes.

[Eli Resnick]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

drums and bass next to each other

Either your hands are a lot stronger than mine, or your drummers are a lot quieter.

Props either way.

[Hornblower64]

'50's you say? Minimal micing, no iso, no headphones. Let the players balance themselves; they'll do it with more subtlety than any fader jockey. If it were me I'd put up my MKH8020 pr. in a phased array, spot the bass with a large tube or ribbon mic; say a Lucas CS-1 or RCA BK-11A, arrange the players carefully in a good sounding room, and hit record.

[henryrobinett]

Oh yeah. 50s.

[Teddy Ray]

I reckon you might get help , and a lot of it from the remote guys??? They are the experts with this sorta thing.. Steve Remote in particular has done hundreds of this type of gig if not thousands!

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

I don't know man. I hear what you're saying Jim, but I gotta say this -- I AM a jazz musician and a pretty serious one. Iso booths are what a lot of guys ask for these days....

Funny, I just finished overdubbing some solos of a GREAT older jazz sax player (first call on a lot of serious Los Angeles sessions since the '60s, and still killing today), and he said to the band leader, "Hey man, we shoulda tracked to a click, would have made it a lot easier for everyone to play in time!"

I gotta agree, because, after spending 3 days editing the sessions, it's amazing to see/hear how many different concepts of "the groove" there are among really good players. There is a big difference between Live Recordings and Studio Recordings, and what people expect to hear on each, at least around here today.

'50s is a different thang.

GC

[Teddy Ray]

Brad, I forwarded(via PM) some top notch jedi/elite advice I received from one of my heroes recently for a similar job I have coming up.

In my experience , spot miking everything /too many mikes never sounds good(more often than not it sounds terrible,,this is the bane of modern recording!!, and why most of my Jazz and Classical CDs are from boutique labels or from 30 or more years ago!!) Hornblower's approach sounds good..!!

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

Funny, I just finished overdubbing some solos of a GREAT older jazz sax player (first call on a lot of serious Los Angeles sessions since the '60s, and still killing today), and he said to the band leader, "Hey man, we shoulda tracked to a click, would have made it a lot easier for everyone to play in time!"

I gotta agree, because, after spending 3 days editing the sessions, it's amazing to see/hear how many different concepts of "the groove" there are among really good players. There is a big difference between Live Recordings and Studio Recordings, and what people expect to hear on each, at least around here today.

'50s is a different thang.

GC

Absolutely. Listen to a lot of the great CURRENT jazz recordings. Kinda Blue was fantastic, but that was 1958.
Plus sorry to say engineers, the reason that recording was great was not just Rudy Van Gelder, but mainly because of Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Cannonball Adderly, Bill Evans, Paul Chambers and Jimmy Cobb, and let's not forget Wynton Kelly!

But most of the great CURRENT jazz recording do use some close micing techniques. Steve Remote AWAYS close mic's everything if I remember correctly. Even live. You don't have to use them al. But most of the current recordings just sound great. Definition.

[Bassmankr]

He's asking how to go about getting a 50's sound which didn't have the clarity of today's stuff. Each style has it's pluses and minuses. It was minimal micing, bleed, and balance. Yes the string bass doesn't have much definition and the drums are not crisp in those 50's recordings. The players however knew how to balance themselves from playing everything from big band dance gigs to house rent parties. They simply adjusted their volume and tone for the room. The rhythm section setup next to each other for a reason. Jazz is a conversation, do you have a better conversation being in the same room with someone or Skyping (like ISO booth)? You can see and hear each other both ways but I think many would say they had a more rewarding conversation in person. Given it's the band's idea to record in a 50's style I'm sure they are aware of or Brad will remind them that they control the balance and tone, Brad's there to capture the conversation.

[Fabi]

I am a drummer and I play mostly jazz.
Althogh its true, there needs to be a strong connection between the members of the band I've never had problems getting that connection in an iso booth where you can see the rest of the band.

Give me a good headphone mix and let me see the band through some glass and I am perfectly happy. If the headphone feed is balanced and pre any compression you will be able to blend in no matter what.

Just my experience

[henryrobinett]

bassmanker - while I agree with you regarding 50s, communication through glass and phones works very well for probably the majority of jazz musicians these days.

I am just personally -- meaning me, myself and I -- tired of trying to recreate the 40s and the 50s in jazz or music and art in general.