Millenia or DAV BG1 as clean stereo preamp ?

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by salomonander

After hearing those clips...would you guys still describe the bg1 having a sweet top?
Is it just me who thinks it is everything else then sweet....

what is a "sweet" top??

[salomonander]

Well I didnt't say I don't like it....it just sounded a bit (sorry for saying this)
harsh on top especially compared to the portico.
Now I don't know how all these shootouts sounded when being
recorded. Is the Portico colouring the sound or the BG?
The Piano sounded dull on the Portico with silk
but like a yamaha cheap-ass samplelibrary when run trough the BG1.
I am just tryingf to find out how it actually sounded.
Could you guys post the piano without any preamp gain?
Just the dry take?


best regards

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by salomonander

Well I didnt't say I don't like it....it just sounded a bit (sorry for saying this)
harsh on top especially compared to the portico.
Now I don't know how all these shootouts sounded when being
recorded. Is the Portico colouring the sound or the BG?
The Piano sounded dull on the Portico with silk
but like a yamaha cheap-ass samplelibrary when run trough the BG1.
I am just tryingf to find out how it actually sounded.
Could you guys post the piano without any preamp gain?
Just the dry take?


best regards

I am perplexed by this too, although I did not perceive BG´s HF that harsh. But as Tom mentioned it was recorded through PT 888 AD, which is quite a low quality AD ... In three days I should have it ... HV-3 - BG-1 comparison through Lavry will be posted ... (and one of these two sold ...)

[salomonander]

Now....that will be an interesting test!
Cause I think you might be right with the converters...

[tomwehrle]

Originally Posted by salomonander

Well I didnt't say I don't like it....it just sounded a bit (sorry for saying this)
harsh on top especially compared to the portico.
Now I don't know how all these shootouts sounded when being
recorded. Is the Portico colouring the sound or the BG?
The Piano sounded dull on the Portico with silk
but like a yamaha cheap-ass samplelibrary when run trough the BG1.
I am just tryingf to find out how it actually sounded.
Could you guys post the piano without any preamp gain?
Just the dry take?


best regards

I guess you dont play piano eh

[Plush]

you guys who want samples impress me as clowns.
you ruin every thread because you are unwilling to stick to the topic.

are my words harsh?---no, just i have no patience with guys who bash BG and are not zuper duper experienced with many different pre's.

you want good pre-amp??--buy the BG
i have all the mic amps mentioned and the BG is very very good compared to any of them---get to work yu clowns --get off the internet


make sure to put the mic in the right place,too

you guys are hosers. . .

[popmann]

I would hope the Porticos sound "veiled"...they were so awful sounding, IMO, they just didn't even excite me enough to finish my testing. Maybe I'd have found some killer app for their color...but, I don't keep a lot of harsh mics, where I want the high end attenuated or thin mics where I want it to add a big bottom.

I'm really interested in hearing the BG1, due to some comments here that it's "as clean as Millenia but with more midrange emphasis"...to me, that describes MY ultimate preamp. But, at the same time, that's a tricky proposition, because it can't be "as clean but"...I'm hopping that meas on the high and low end, it retains the clean accurracy, and adds a little mid bump.

Has anyone with a BG1 tried it as a bass DI? Thus far, the winners there for me have been the LA610 and Great River NV...then, it's all been the same-API, Radial, RNP-various other units get the job done as nice clean DI, but lack any extra bass centric oomph. Been meaning to try the U5...

[popmann]

you guys who want samples impress me as clowns.

I agree that's not much of a test for a mic preamp. But, don't be harsh...since you are a fan, I assume you've used the BG1 for bass...how does it's DI compare to those I mentioned above?

[Plush]

Originally Posted by popmann

I would hope the Porticos sound "veiled"...they were so awful sounding, IMO, they just didn't even excite me enough to finish my testing. Maybe I'd have found some killer app for their color...but, I don't keep a lot of harsh mics, where I want the high end attenuated or thin mics where I want it to add a big bottom.

I'm really interested in hearing the BG1, due to some comments here that it's "as clean as Millenia but with more midrange emphasis"...to me, that describes MY ultimate preamp. But, at the same time, that's a tricky proposition, because it can't be "as clean but"...I'm hopping that meas on the high and low end, it retains the clean accurracy, and adds a little mid bump.

Has anyone with a BG1 tried it as a bass DI? Thus far, the winners there for me have been the LA610 and Great River NV...then, it's all been the same-API, Radial, RNP-various other units get the job done as nice clean DI, but lack any extra bass centric oomph. Been meaning to try the U5...

portico--veiled???--no, it's flat and so is the BG.

BG is a mic amp--use any DI box you want for bass---but it's a mic amp

[T.RayBullard]

Originally Posted by popmann

I agree that's not much of a test for a mic preamp. But, don't be harsh...since you are a fan, I assume you've used the BG1 for bass...how does it's DI compare to those I mentioned above?

it has been used with a DI Box.*not its intended purpose)..and Mick does have a plan in the works for a DI....but not yet.

[salomonander]

Now, I don't want to get into any fight here, but dear Plush...
if you have a problem with this threat - just read another one and stop
whining. Now I don't have the financial background to test every
preamp out there and therefore I am happy if people post shootouts.
And no, I am not stupid enough to base my descision on them.
If you have the dough, great.
But just please just stay away from comments like ---get to work yu clowns --
you have no ****ing clue who I am or what I do.


best regards
Jakob

PS: And yes, I do play piano.

[tomwehrle]

Originally Posted by salomonander

Now, I don't want to get into any fight here, but dear Plush...
if you have a problem with this threat - just read another one and stop
whining. Now I don't have the financial background to test every
preamp out there and therefore I am happy if people post shootouts.
And no, I am not stupid enough to base my descision on them.
If you have the dough, great.
But just please just stay away from comments like ---get to work yu clowns --
you have no ****ing clue who I am or what I do.


best regards
Jakob

PS: And yes, I do play piano.

well, i'm not endoresed by yamaha or anything, but i think they have the best sounding keyboards out there for piano sounds, i know people have their own opinions of this, but I've yet to find people that have grown up playing piano (not keyboards) not like there stuff over roland, korg, etc (all the other brands)...I certaintly have not found anything better sounding (I've been playing since 1990), or feels the way my S90 does, and I check out a lot of stuff...sure its still not a real piano, but for being a portible keyboard, they have an amazing feel and some of the best sounds I've ever heard....so to throw it in your court, since apparently you get "better" sounds with something else, what is it, and lets hear some samples of your great piano sounds as opposed to mine

ps...there is a difference (in my book) between people who play piano but are really guitarist, and those who are real piano players who started out on piano...no offense or anything to those who are, cause I started out playing piano, and now i also play guitar, but i still consider myself a piano player over a guitarist

[salomonander]

Hey Joemeekfan

Have you tried the PMI sample libraries?
I know there is a plugin for kontakt 2 that even
simulates realistic overtones in realtime.
Give it a shot...you'll love it.

[Albert]

Originally Posted by popmann

I agree that's not much of a test for a mic preamp. But, don't be harsh...since you are a fan, I assume you've used the BG1 for bass...how does it's DI compare to those I mentioned above?

As has been stated, the BG-1 is a mic preamp, not a DI. It does not have a DI input, but obviously you could use any DI in front of it.

[popmann]

My apologies on the lack of DI...I guess I assumed since someone was running a keyboard into it...wrong ASSumption.

portico--veiled???--no, it's flat

What else are you comparing it to? I could come up with a lot of adjectives for it...flat wouldn't make the top 100.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by popmann

My apologies on the lack of DI...I guess I assumed since someone was running a keyboard into it...wrong ASSumption.



What else are you comparing it to? I could come up with a lot of adjectives for it...flat wouldn't make the top 100.

MEASURE it, sir
unit is flat

your unit is broken

[0VU]

I'm surprised that no-one's mentioned the Crookwood preamps. Taking the lazy way out and just clipping and pasting some comments I made elsewhere:

I've got quite a lot of preamps but my personal favourite for clean, accurate/transparent gain is the Crookwood Paintpot. (Or the iPre multichannel system.)

I have a Millennia HV3D but I find the Crookwood is less inclined to sound clinical/cold on brighter sources. It's not that it's dull or soft sounding, just that it seems not to emphasise anything.

I sold my BG1 as I wasn't using it enough. It's a very nice amp and definitely a big cut above the crowd but I didn't feel that it was that special; not in the same super league as Crookwood or Millennia - though given the price differential it's amazingly close. I didn't find it especially clean or transparent, at least not in the same way as a Millennia/Crookwood/Buzz/etc.. Or perhaps I should say, I felt it was clean but not neutral, more open, smooth and very slightly warm sounding. Not that that's a criticism - just a personal observation - it's a very good preamp and extraordinary value for money. If I was looking for a two channel preamp in the <£750 categtory, there's very little readily available competition in the UK for for the BG stuff and it'd be high on my shortlist.

Obviously though, this is all very personal - my idea of neutral and clean may not be yours - and highly dependent upon the kind of sounds you like, the other gear you use and and the way you like to work. Sometimes two preamps can sound all but identical until, for example, you load one with a really long cable run, change the mic or drive it hard. Often, how you use the preamp within your particular situation/working practices counts for a lot more than small variations in sound from one "clean and accurate" unit to another. All you can do is get hold of the things on your shortlist and try them out for yourself.


Just to add to that, in price terms, the BG1 is an absolute steal. It's about half the price of the Crookwood for a lot more than half the quality. However, the Crookwood gives you that last few percent of quality and adds remote control and optional internal A-D converters. If you can find an old version Paintpot, you lose the converter option but instead get a very very good and useable simple EQ (like the "tilt" controls on Quad hi-fi preamps but better quality) and a simple but useful in a tight spot, M-S matrix. The newer version loses these to reduce cost and is a much cheaper way to get the core preamp circuitry. At their present price, they're probably the cheapest of the really high end preamps - and one of the least known. The only thing I know which is an equivalent on my preference list for transparent and neutral preamps is even less known and no longer made.

[partnering]

i liked both portico and bg piano samples. What stood out was the really nice playing more than the pres. i do believe the portico is coloring the sound and the bg is the more like the way the piano does sound. but again this sample shows, its like apples and oranges at this point and to pay maybe double for that extra bit of sonic goodness, well its up to the purchaser. funny the more i read this forum the more i think i need a neve or chandler or whatever and i haven't even done one serious recording yet. a good performance on my firepod or mackie board will always kill a neve or chandler with a so so performance no questions about that. i bet doing a rock tune with the bg-1 is really cool and most likely sound great. at least you'll get the full preamp signal a good pre can give you and i don't know i think some of these plugs can turn that signal into something close to whatever eq curve you need for that instrument. as long as you get a good full mic signal at the beginning i think you can't lose no way. I think before i need a chandler or neve i need to get the mic placement and performance rocking before spending more on something that has less affect on my sound than my own skills, knowledge, and ears.

[popmann]

MEASURE it, sir
unit is flat

your unit is broken

Measure it? It's long gone. It was a loaner. It sat here next to an Hv3, LA610, API 512c, Vintage 312, the low dollar transformerless Akai built in preamps in the DPS24. For most everything I ran through it, I picked it last. Hmm...maybe I just don't like "flat".

So, you're thinking that if I "measured" the response, I assume with test tones (?) that it would indeed be "flat" where my Hv3 is coloring the signal more? My ears tell me that's just not possible. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that NO preamp with a transformer is gonna be "flatter"...if we're defining flat as accurrate. At least none that I've used.

[popmann]

funny the more i read this forum the more i think i need a neve or chandler or whatever and i haven't even done one serious recording yet. a good performance on my firepod or mackie board will always kill a neve or chandler with a so so performance no questions about that.

Bingo. And even more, while the piano sample isn't gonna show this...having a good MIC to capture said great performance is more important, too. Preamps and converters ARE important....but, they're WAY far downwind of the instrument/performance/transducer(mic)...IMHO.

I've long said that the real "need" of preamp quality can be met cheap...you just don't want a noisy, shitty 10 cent preamp in some interfaces, mixers, and "all in one" recorders...after you get to the $75-100/ch preamps...it's seriously diminished returns afterwards. A game of inches. Inches that add up as you stack and manipulate tracks, but...inches, still. Wait...can I say that in High End?

[tomwehrle]

Originally Posted by salomonander

Hey Joemeekfan

Have you tried the PMI sample libraries?
I know there is a plugin for kontakt 2 that even
simulates realistic overtones in realtime.
Give it a shot...you'll love it.

never heard of pmi, or kontakt 2...sorry
normally, if i want a real piano sound, i go and record a real piano
but for live gigs i'm sold on my s90 right now, i hear there new line is suppose to be nicer, but i havent checked it out nor do i have the money to upgrade, the s90 does a lot for the money and is one of my better keyboard purchases...i started with a ensoniq ts12...those were the days

[Reptil]

convolution reverbs and such methods of sticking a signature ambiance on a sound has come a long way. And are valid as a production tool, when mixing.
However it is different IMO from recording an instrument live with a nice microphone in a nice room. The DAV may lack according to some in the highs, I'd say you are using the wrong microphone for the job, but that is just me. Opinions vary.
So please lets not mix different production techniques.

For the sake of the discussion, let's keep it about preamps and mic techniques? I like my DAV it is very useful, and have not worked extensively with the Millennia, but it seems like a nice clean precise tool too. I found the samples helpful, that were posted in the thread, because the open midrange and the low mids of the DAV are easily recognisable. With different mics, the highs will shine through more too. (try a really bright condenser, or just focus on the midrange, and use something else for capturing the highs... The silkiness of the Portico (I clearly do hear the transfromers there on the highs) are recognisable as well. I will post some examples of my new Maselec a.s.a.p.. (right now I'm very busy doing other stuff). so you will have to excuse me for not posting inmediately.

cheers,
Reptil

[Albert]

Originally Posted by popmann

My apologies on the lack of DI...I guess I assumed since someone was running a keyboard into it...wrong ASSumption.

That's me, running synths/samplers and mixes through it. It's *very* touchy however, as far as levels. The pads are in, and depending on the source, the gain pots might be at their lowest level and still borderline too high. Not something you'd want to do in any situation than a controlled studio setting, as without a DI it really is easy to distort. I really should be running a DI in front of it, but it sounds to good on synths as is.

[Plush]

I'm staggered and dumbfounded about this thread.


Now there are postings from people who "believe" that one mic amp or another renders the source better than a different mic amp---even though they never heard the source!! Absurd!

Another example:
When I asked Popmann to measure the BG, he does not even know what I'm talking about. Sir, I mean measure the frequency resonse with an Audio Precision test set or other good audio analyzer and frequency generator.

The poster who objected to me telling the other posters to "get to work," saying it is none of my business what he does can get my balls in his mouth right now.

Sorry, guys, I thought that your work was recording music but, really, it turns out, your job is posting on internet forums.

The reason I lose patience is that no one will do a search to see what has already been said about the subject of interest and also no one appears to believe the actual users of BG equipment. Instead they postulate their own theorems which are wrong.

All of the mic amps mentioned here measure flat to at least 100,000Hz.
The Crookwood measures flat and is down -3dB at 450kHz.

Please revisit this thread after you have done 50 recordings with the mic amp.

[MadGuitrst]

No, you're wrong Plush, the Crockwood measures flat up to 478k (with a slight peak at 469K) and down to -4.3 db. Man, your measurements are WAY off.

It doesn't matter, after everything is converted to digital it all sounds the same anyway.

[Dave Ferris]

Originally Posted by Recording David

Here is a classical guitar piece I recorded using a pair of Schoeps MK5 going into a BG1.

http://www.i-record.net/mp3/sugarloafmountain.mp3

It is a truly excellent piece of kit. Mick is a very professional guy, so nothing to worry about.

David..that's very nice man. Really enjoyed it.

[Recording David]

^^ Thanks!

I'm still loving my DAV pre and use it on every project.

[Dave Ferris]

I'm having a little trouble getting in touch with Mick at D.A.V., I'm wondering if he's on extended holiday?

[Noooway]

Waiting for my DAV BG9 - Pre/DI.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris

I'm having a little trouble getting in touch with Mick at D.A.V., I'm wondering if he's on extended holiday?

Shoot me a PM, i will contact him for you.

I talk to him often.