Millenia or DAV BG1 as clean stereo preamp ?

[boojum]

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya

Boojum, I'm gonna propose the opposite approach....

All those with me, who believe that the almighty himself breathed life into the first BG amp circuit after first sending Gabriel the Seraph to Mick Hinton in 1993 in a fiery blaze survivable only by the great British prophet himself, PM and I'll send you a copy of the divine text I discovered on 2 tablets written in Arabimebrewish under a sacred 10000 year-old tree (coincidentally, I had time to transcribe it for you because I couldn't get any pop gigs with my all-DAV rig.... I consider it my 40-day fast)

We will litter the threads with the Good News of DAV. And those who chose to still worship at the primitive NEVE, UREI and API temples will taste the steel from our self-righteous swords!

The truth shall set you free! With minimal distortion.

ROTFLMAO - where else but this forum on GS!?

[studer58]

It would be interesting to hear Mick's take on all this silliness...but I doubt he'd care descend into the swamp again ?

[Plush]

low noise and low distortion

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by jslevin

By all means, let's not try to help the OP solve his problem ... mustn't stray from the exact rules that we imagine are dictated by the thread title! The thread title is, after all, handed down by the Lord God Almighty!

The guy is asking about clean stereo preamps. The OP in the very first post in the thread takes the discussion beyond Millennia and DAV, bringing Amek into it. My posts here have been 100 percent on-topic.

Let me repeat that: 100 percent on-topic.

Do you people really think you're making this a better forum by sticking up for semantics over substance? Or upholding some glorious principle? Because it's really just døuchey and anal-retentive.

JSL

Nah... we people are just attempting a bit of on-topic levity. And trying to mostly not irritate His Most Right and High Almighty Remoteness. Everyone else is fair game.

FWIW, the OP was posted in, oh, let's see... February of 2006. I'm guessing he's maybe made a decision.

And, it should be pointed out, that you were the one "Once again ... tired of hearing from the DAV devotees." Since we ARE devotees, that seems a bit like waving a flag at a bunch of territorial, sluttish bulls.

And, I even posted a smiley face after the last crack.

"it's really just døuchey and anal-retentive" ? I'll have to check with my therapist about that. I'm mainly just "sarcastic and a wee bit of a smart-aleck."

=-}


We now return you to your low noise and low distortion topic.

[MichaelPatrick]

This pissing about DAV started here...

Originally Posted by jslevin

Once again ... tired of hearing from the DAV devotees.

If you don't want to hear from DAV devotees then, perhaps, you should NOT visit threads that have DAV in the title. In my world this is called a "personal problem."

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Geoff Poulton

For some time now, I have been aware of alterations made to equipment by Audio Upgrades, that have ended up back with the original manufacturers to be returned to proper working condition.

These include ebay purchases which were being disposed of because of the modifications and which some poor individual had purchased. This is not one manufacturer but two that I am aware of. In some cases I have emails connected with it that are still on my computer, others were mentioned in conversation at various times with the separate companies.

So it is not a benign issue to those parting with that money to purchase, or to the reputation of the original manufacturers. None of this gets mentioned here because, I suppose, the manufacturers don't want to appear unprofessional and get involved in these things. One of the manufacturers used the phrase, "messing up my circuits."

What I do know, is that Jim Williams has mentioned parts used in the DAV, which have never been part of the circuitry, so for me it all seems quite nonsensical.

If you want a JW amp go and buy one, if you want a DAV mic preamp (in my opinion, a wise decision) go and buy one.

I don't know how old Jim Williams is, but there's a good chance he was still having his diapers changed when Mick Hinton was designing the first Decca amps.

That's quite a personal tirade there, chap. Attempts to smear my reputation must be backed up with facts, not inuendo. Your motivation is quite suspect, however. It seems personal to me.

My services do include customer satisfaction. That does require the customer contact me with ANY problems, they are always rectified here. You found 2 cases out of thousands. I'll take that ratio any day, thank you. Show me another company with that level of satisfaction, if you can.

As to "messing up my circuits", that is something childish, said as if they still own them? Perhaps you can correct my mistakes in characterizing the parts used in the various DAV preamps through the years?

The fact is: if these manufacturers made gear that satisfied every purchaser, then they would never ever buy anything else again or do any work on it, ever. That is not the case, nor has it ever been. My experience from the golden age of analog recording was every piece of gear was worked on in the tech room. New pieces were modifed to suit the purpose of the end user, the owner, not the designer that sold it. Yes, I'm old enough to remember this, first hand as I was there. I wasn't born yesterday as you suggest. If you need more confirmation, look up the client list on my web site. I've been around for a while. Some of those folks are rather accomplished.

Maybe you are not comfortable having folks work on your gear, but to say that it is not needed is only your opinion.

There are thousands of modified pieces of gear out there working every day. If as you suggest there was an intrinsic problem with these mods, perhaps a few that own them can set you straight?

[Geoff Poulton]

Jim Williams: That's quite a personal tirade there, chap. Attempts to smear my reputation must be backed up with facts, not inuendo. Your motivation is quite suspect, however. It seems personal to me.

Well, I didn't think there was much innuendo about it, I thought it was pretty much to the point, I must apologise if that's way it came over.

My services do include customer satisfaction. That does require the customer contact me with ANY problems, they are always rectified here. You found 2 cases out of thousands. I'll take that ratio any day, thank you. Show me another company with that level of satisfaction, if you can.

If someone has their own gear modified, that's up to them, but these particular things were returned to the manufacturers having been purchased second hand. I only spoke to two manufacturers, and don't know how many times they had these problem, nor am I aware of other manufacturers, because I haven't spoken to them.

As to "messing up my circuits", that is something childish, said as if they still own them? Perhaps you can correct my mistakes in characterizing the parts used in the various DAV preamps through the years?

Better than my correcting you on your mistakes, I see that Mick Hinton has written to point out things you don't have right, and yet you have persisted in repeating the same things. If you're modifying something you could at least aquire a knowledge of the components before condemning them for one thing or another. And I can understand someone saying that circuits were being messed up, if they were finding their way back to them for putting back into working order, after all their name is on the product and it's their reputation at stake.

The fact is: if these manufacturers made gear that satisfied every purchaser, then they would never ever buy anything else again or do any work on it, ever. That is not the case, nor has it ever been. My experience from the golden age of analog recording was every piece of gear was worked on in the tech room. New pieces were modifed to suit the purpose of the end user, the owner, not the designer that sold it. Yes, I'm old enough to remember this, first hand as I was there. I wasn't born yesterday as you suggest. If you need more confirmation, look up the client list on my web site. I've been around for a while. Some of those folks are rather accomplished.
Maybe you are not comfortable having folks work on your gear, but to say that it is not needed is only your opinion.

As I said earlier, if people want their gear modifying that's up to them, but when they end up on ebay and are returned to the manufacturers, that's another thing. Your lists of clients is one thing, but consider what might be the list of clients for the two particular pieces of gear altered.
About aterations, I have not said 'it is not needed is my opinion', although I tend to buy the gear I like the sound of and leave it alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.......but I can appreciate that not everyone feels that way, which is up to them and no problem to me, as long as I am not buying it from them second hand and unaware of the modifications - problems or no problems.

There are thousands of modified pieces of gear out there working every day. If as you suggest there was an intrinsic problem with these mods, perhaps a few that own them can set you straight?

Modifications are ok, if modifications are what you want, there is no problem there?
But to condemn pieces of gear for the components they don't even contain, modify them, only to find they end up on ebay for some poor sucker to spend money on and have to return to the manufacturer is another matter. That sucker might be anyone of us on this site. If the modifications were made known and the gear working ok, then there's no problem, but how often would a seller tell you that what you're buying in the tin is not what is written on the the tin?
As for the DAV, for a while now they have been produced with sockets, so for those wishing to replace or experiment with I.C's they can, although for me the original choice of the designer is fine, and that way you still have a DAV.

[wildplum]

I feel compelled to defend Jim Williams' reputation. have had him mod a couple of my pieces and they do sound better, everything works fine and his prices were reasonable.
I have also found his posts to usually be informative and sometimes entertaining.

I should add that I do not know him personally nor do I have any financial ties to his business.

[sunflute]

Another +Plus for Jim Williams. I for one sent him a 2 channel DAV BG1 for modding and was quite happy with the results after Jim worked on it. Not only did he work on the DAV, but several other pieces of gear and Always! they ended up performing better than expected. The fact that I am now using something else is another matter altogether but when I sold the modded DAV here on Gearslutz the user was quite happy by the positive feedback he left after the sale.

Nonetheless, the DAV is a fine product as is and many capable engineers produce excellent results with it.

Peace.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Nah... we people are just attempting a bit of on-topic levity. And trying to mostly not irritate His Most Right and High Almighty Remoteness. Everyone else is fair game.

FWIW, the OP was posted in, oh, let's see... February of 2006. I'm guessing he's maybe made a decision.

And, it should be pointed out, that you were the one "Once again ... tired of hearing from the DAV devotees." Since we ARE devotees, that seems a bit like waving a flag at a bunch of territorial, sluttish bulls.

And, I even posted a smiley face after the last crack.

"it's really just døuchey and anal-retentive" ? I'll have to check with my therapist about that. I'm mainly just "sarcastic and a wee bit of a smart-aleck."

=-}


We now return you to your low noise and low distortion topic.

All points taken. Well taken, even.

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

If you don't want to hear from DAV devotees then, perhaps, would you should NOT visit threads that have DAV in the title. In my world this is called a "personal problem."

No, the DAV fanatics were getting pissy before I ever showed up. That's what I was responding to.

Of course I have no objection to people posting about DAV, and of course that's what you expect to find in this thread. I have no objection to people saying positive things about DAV. I say positive things about DAV myself.

My objection to the DAV devotees is that they object vehemently and verbosely and repeatedly and unceasingly to anyone who is critical of DAV preamps, or even to those who are just not praising them enough. They love their DAV so much that they give too little respect to differing opinions. I only think they should show others' views the same courtesy that theirs are shown.

There's nothing I don't understand about DAV preamps, but the DAV-heads will tell me that there is. Then I will get another history lesson about Mick, and frankly I couldn't give two fracks about that. It's just a preamp, and I'm just sticking up for everyone's right to think what they want about it without being castigated. Also, pointing out that the sheer volume of posts (from a small group of people) doesn't necessarily equate to a consensus. ("It worked for the Ayatollah!")

I thought you were closer to the mark when you posted this ...

One observation I've made is how DAV micamps are viewed by different people: They're super clean and transparent to studio trackers who frequently use colored preamps, but people who typically try to capture details with high resolution consider them more colored.

That makes some sense to me. I have a particular interest in clean preamps, but they are not my main focus. We mostly have somewhat colored preamps, and I like to have some great clean preamps in the mix. For our purposes, DAV is a great preamp, but it's unexceptional in a colored role (as we define it) and unexceptional as a clean preamp. When we're looking for what we consider to be the colored side of clean, we want API. You, on the other hand, may consider the API to be extremely colored and DAV to be more usefully, moderately colored. When we want clean, we want clean, and DAV is perfectly fine but not impressive in that role.

But of course ... YMMV.

JSL

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by Plush

Then the guessing game continues with the fantasy posts written by JEGG.

He attempts to say that the d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens range of mic amps is not a Decca Records mic amp from 1994. It is a design from directly inside the Decca company and it is the design settled on by Decca Records engineering and listening teams.

Well the posts exist, and your "paraphrase" is not at all what I carefully said, and did not say.

Originally Posted by Plush

JEGG writes this nonsense, "forum members endlessly insist the product is from another age manufactured in the present."

Yep, I said that.

Originally Posted by Plush

He then says that this is in fact not happening.

Nope, I did not say that. I surmise you've drawn that from a different post than you've been referencing thus far, #239. Those interested can read that other post, #241.

That sort of deliberate obfuscation smacks of weak argument, Plush.

Originally Posted by Plush

Anyone who is actually in the recording business knows what they are listening to when they hook up a d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 mic amp.

I totally agree. In my very limited experience of using a DAV product, the BG-1 immediately and lastingly impressed. I'd like to have one. I've also heard many recordings by others which reaffirm that impression.

Remember all my comments were in the larger context of specific criticisms in this thread leveled in very broad strokes at JW.

I'll not continue this, as my entry into the discussion here was an attempt to analyze criticisms of JW.

Thanks for reading, and thanks for writing.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Nah... we people are just attempting a bit of on-topic levity. And trying to mostly not irritate His Most Right and High Almighty Remoteness. Everyone else is fair game... <snip>

Imagine that.

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

<snip>...We now return you to your low noise and low distortion topic.

We could indeed, return to the original 2006 topic or consider moving on...
I mean, hasn't everything been said about this topic?
What say you?

[SaraLs]

Old thread, I know, but Steve asked "What say you?"

Parts of this thread are why I keep a low profile on GS. Oh, I don't like having my head (or ass) removed!

However - I own a DAV BG1, I have for some time. It's a marvelous "piece of kit". It's colored, sure, but in a smooth, seductive way. It's built like a tank. It's reliable. I love it!

I greatly admire Plush, and I don't wish to incur his wrath. Because! He knows his history, the people in this business, the music, and the gear. He is a DAV devotee, and it shows - so? He can certainly back it up, and he does, as he does with anything he's a devotee of and knows about.

Jim Williams is also a person I admire. His reputation is well known, and to me, above reproach. I have no issue with the fact he "mods gear". He has his ideas on the way a piece of gear should perform and he is willing to make changes to it for a customer. What, fellas, is wrong with that?

I can also understand, and completely empathize with, the idea that sometimes facts get "astray". Some posts or responses are written in an off the cuff manner, and it's bound to happen. I don't think that makes the intent malicious. What's wrong with having an opinion, anyway? Even if a detail is off? Isn't the point of the discussion enough?

My point (ummm, besides liking my BG1)? I see no reason for you guys, all of whom are talented, respected, smart engineers, to get so personal in some of your disagreements. Some people like rock n roll. Some like classical. Some like both. So?

You boys behave. tutt

I'll now return to my head down out of the line of fire position.

[Plush]

Taste the steel from a d.a.v. devotee, you swabs!

thank you, SaraLs.

Just made a record with all dav--the sound was dark, wide and lovely. Just like it was in real life.

Now THAT's the beauty part.

thankyasomuch!

[SaraLs]

Originally Posted by Plush

Taste the steel from a d.a.v. devotee, you swabs!

thank you, SaraLs.

Just made a record with all dav--the sound was dark, wide and lovely. Just like it was in real life.

Now THAT's the beauty part.

thankyasomuch!

You are very welcome, Plush.

[Jim Williams]

I just went through a version 3 DAV preamp, I believe it's the current version but I could be wrong. For those with them and capable, here's what I did for it.

I used the Analog Devices SSM2019. I found the that 1510 to be marginally stable. The SSM part settles nicely with clean lines, no oscillations or ringing.

I removed the 47 ohm series resistors on the inputs, those are snubber parts to stabilize the 1510 chip and are not needed with the SSM2019. I replaced them with ferrite beads for rf trapping. That lowers the input noise a tad as those resistors are no longer in the circuit.

Input phantom blocking caps were replaced with the new Panasonic FR series, 100 uf. Those are bypassed with .01 uf Wima polyprop film caps. The 3 1 uf filter caps were changed to mylar stacked film. The output electrolytic caps were removed, direct coupled. I used the National LME49860 22 volt dual opamp. Large 4700 uf psu caps were installed and local 470 uf FR psu bypass caps were installed on the audio cards along with local .1 uf ceramics.

[didier.brest]

Would you have sound samples before and after modification ?

[Jim Williams]

No, I don't really have time to do that here. Do these mods and post your own results.