Camera on a dolly track - noise?

[Robobo1]

Hi all,

I am doing the music mix for a large audio/video recording of an opera. It's an 8-camera HD shoot, similar to the Met productions we all know.

I learned of an issue today that I am hoping some of you can provide insight on. A camera on a dolly and a long track (30 ft or so) will be placed around the perimeter of the orchestra pit... just feet away from my main orchestra pairs.

How much noise can I expect from this rig?

I have no experience working with dollies and am a little concerned. I have been told this is the "quietest one available". I also know that the wood floor of the theater squeaks a little when walked on, which could prove disastrous as there will be a cable wrangler following the dolly.

I may be able to attenuate some of any existing noise with more directional mics (currently using a combo of a wide card main pair and flanking omnis) - but that will only help but so much.

Have also asked them to be mindful of their use of clearcom... it's gonna have to be one-way com, with the headset down pretty low.

What else should I expect from a camera on a dolly and on a track, with a cable wrangler?

[chris319]

They do it all the time in feature film production.

[Audiop]

Chris, feature film has most of the sound added in post, "foley".

The dialog (if used from the set, overdubbing is very common) is typically recorded with lavaliers on the actors or a boom mic with high directivity.

That said I have no insicht in the sound levels from industrial dollies.


/Peter

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Chris, feature film has most of the sound added in post, "foley".

The dialog (if used from the set, overdubbing is very common) is typically recorded with lavaliers on the actors or a boom mic with high directivity.

That said I have no insicht in the sound levels from industrial dollies.


/Peter

yes, sound added. but that won't take away dolly noise. "overdubbing" is called ADR BTW.

back to the dolly:

a well maintained dolly and a quiet floor will not be audible. main issue is the crew that will be following the dolly like the AC. Make sure you lay down some carpet to avoid footsteps.
I'm talking about professional dollies here. panther, fisher etc.
cheap dollies like improvised skateboard-dollies on plastic tracks WILL be noisy.

but again main noise source will either will be creaking floor and/or crew walking. the dolly itself is quiet.

[Karl_Lohninger]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Chris, feature film has most of the sound added in post, "foley".

The dialog (if used from the set, overdubbing is very common) is typically recorded with lavaliers on the actors or a boom mic with high directivity.

That said I have no insicht in the sound levels from industrial dollies.


/Peter

Peter, you are very very mistaken. On all counts even. Dialog is usually boomed (Schoeps 641 mostly), overdubbing is much less common than what people think!

RE dolly noise: if it's track (screeching) noise the solution is to sprinkle baby powder. Do not go with silicon (furniture) sprays. If it's noise coming from the (wooden) floor, then the grips should put panels underneath the tracks.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Karl_Lohninger

Peter, you are very very mistaken. On all counts even.

Originally Posted by Audiop

Chris, feature film has most of the sound added in post, "foley".

Karl, do you mean that a minimum of sound is added in post in contrast to what I wrote?

Originally Posted by Karl_Lohninger

Dialog is usually boomed (Schoeps 641 mostly), overdubbing is much less common than what people think!

Originally Posted by Audiop

The dialog (if used from the set, overdubbing is very common)
is typically recorded with lavaliers on the actors or a boom mic with high directivity.

I wrote that dialog is typcially recorded with lavaliers or a boom mic with high directivity of which the last part of the sentence would equal your "..usually boomed (Schoeps 641 mostly)".

As for "common" I guess we need to go into specific numbers to nail our definitions of that word in this context.. Or let's just accept that it happens.

My points though being that in film you have all possibilities to grab new sounds after getting the pictures and you don't normally use omnis and subcards etc. which you likely use recording an opera.

Recording concerts noise is more of a problem if it exists since you can't add the sound after if noise interference happens.

I also mentioned that I have no experience with industrial dollies.. am I wrong on that account as well?



/Peter

[apple-q]

Something like this is most likely noisy: See attachment 1


"real" dollies with well maintained and propperly layed out tracks are not. Usable dialog scenes (boomed) are shot with them every day: See Attachment 2 & 3

Creaky floor is a killer. Lots of people walking with the dolly can be noisy too. The minimum crew you´ll be facing are the dolly grip and the AC. the DP will ride on the dolly.

[NorseHorse]

I was imagining one of the small remote controlled dollies mounted on the edge of the pit railing. These are often used for theatre / dance. Anything larger gets in the way of the audience, I guess.

Robobo1, do you know how large they are talking about?

Will there be a live audience?

[Marlan]

Where are your main orchestra mics?

[Robobo1]

Thanks all for the info.

Location of the main pit orchestra pairs - if you stand up in the first row of audience, they are at about waist level and 6 feet in front of you, which also happens to be where the edge of the pit railing is. It's as high and as far back as I can get them from the orchestra (it's a small pit)... the orchestra sits within a foot of the edge of the pit on all sides. No, I have not had problems with noise from the first row of audience members (and if there was, I get two performances for the mix as we do editing).

As far as size of the dolly, I do not know. I do know that a camera op will be seated on it, with an additional person coiling cables. (You can tell from that description how much I don't know about video production)

Yes, there will be a live audience.

They are removing the first row of audience seats and cordoning off the second row to make room for the dolly.

Karl - thanks for the baby powder tip. I'll have some along just in case.


Rob

[Thomas W. Bethe]

^^^^^^^^^^

Lots of really good replies.

Most pro dollies are, for all intents and purposes, noiseless. Hopefully your crew will be using a professional dolly that is well maintained.

I would sample some of the noise, if their is any, so you can take it out later using RX from Izotope or any noise reduction software.

Best of luck and let us know how it turns out...

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

I would sample some of the noise, if their is any, so you can take it out later using RX from Izotope or any noise reduction software.

Footsteps, people walking, creaky tracks, cables being coiled removed from music using a noise print?

don´t think so....

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by apple-q

Footsteps, people walking, creaky tracks, cables being coiled removed from music using a noise print?

don´t think so....

Did I say any of that???? I was talking about the NOISE from the DOLLY not all noises on the set...Give me a BREAK!!!!<GRIN>

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Did I say any of that???? I was talking about the NOISE from the DOLLY not all noises on the set...Give me a BREAK!!!!<GRIN>

Well, that´s what I´m saying. I am talking of the possible noise of ONLY the dolly-unit.
The dolly itself doesn´t make any noise when it just sits there. There´s a guy pushing it (the dolly grip) who walks at the same time. Plus a guy coiling cables who also walks while doing that. And possibly an AC pulling focus and walking with the dolly. If the floor is creaky all of the latter will add creaking. If it´s a simple cheapo-dolly with plastic pipe tracks add some creaking tracks as well.

This is a typical dolly scenario (the dolly it self it very quiet, but the "stampede" coming with the dolly can be an issue):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOGIv...eature=related

What I want to point out is that the sum of this is a very complex dynamic noise that doesn´t compare to the type of noise you can remove with a broadband de-noiser. In other words a recording of just the whole apparatus including the people moving will most likely not help using RX.

Drastically speaking:
It´s a little bit as if you were trying to remove a carpenter at work from your music with a clean recording of the workshop.

Therefor: You have to quiet down the dolly as much as possible before shooting because it will be VERY difficult to remove in post.

[Marlan]

See if they will let you put stands on either side of the conductors podium.

[philper]

I would voice your concerns to the camera dept, and try to get to talk to the dolly grip. Experienced ones have lots of tricks to quiet their rigs down. You have to start with the floor itself--a difficult problem if no mods are allowed. One possibility is a plywood "dance floor" placed where the track will go to even out the load. Another problem you have is the curves in the track, which tend to be much squeakier than straight track, and may require some kind of treatment (Lemon Pledge seems to be the most commonly used around here). In general, the multi-wheel "skateboard wheel" systems that the dolly sits on (and doesn't use the dolly's own wheels) are quieter (smoother too). Another big issue is the noise of cable dragging behind the dolly on the floor--they need to figure out how the cable will route and be managed. Unfortunately this may add MORE sets of footsteps behind the dolly, but those folks can be asked to wear quiet shoes and not drag their feet.

good luck

phil p

[Matti]

If you can silently boom the actors even running so could the dolly team

Matti

[Robobo1]

Originally Posted by philper

I would voice your concerns to the camera dept, and try to get to talk to the dolly grip. Experienced ones have lots of tricks to quiet their rigs down. You have to start with the floor itself--a difficult problem if no mods are allowed. One possibility is a plywood "dance floor" placed where the track will go to even out the load. Another problem you have is the curves in the track, which tend to be much squeakier than straight track, and may require some kind of treatment (Lemon Pledge seems to be the most commonly used around here). In general, the multi-wheel "skateboard wheel" systems that the dolly sits on (and doesn't use the dolly's own wheels) are quieter (smoother too). Another big issue is the noise of cable dragging behind the dolly on the floor--they need to figure out how the cable will route and be managed. Unfortunately this may add MORE sets of footsteps behind the dolly, but those folks can be asked to wear quiet shoes and not drag their feet.

good luck

phil p

Thanks for the plywood idea... this may be doable...

[Robobo1]

Well, the dolly is pretty quiet. The wood floor, however, is pretty bad. I'm doing what I can to deal... they won't go for the plywood.

Now I'm mostly afraid of operator coughs or someone accidentally dropping something off the dolly or tripping...