Sound Devices goes "Video" Devices

[9sbean]

PIX Recorders | Sound Devices, LLC

Well, since I do video as well, this recorder could replace my 722 completely. What will the price be? My wish is 2K, but guess it will be more than 3K... If it is 3K, it will be a market killer.

[MichaelPatrick]

WOW. Hot item!
These guys just keep bringing it.

I don't do video, but the features and the fact that it works with HDMI streams is enough to get me excited and curious about what they'll do next.

What kind of cameras (pro, prosumer, consumer) would this thing be ideal for? Is it aimed at movie, TV, ENG ???

[tsvisser]

Might be interesting if it would be useable as a video assist device. While it is there, should also be a pretty competent backup recorder. Looking forward to browsing the manual.

[9sbean]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

WOW. Hot item!
These guys just keep bringing it.

I don't do video, but the features and the fact that it works with HDMI streams is enough to get me excited and curious about what they'll do next.

What kind of cameras (pro, prosumer, consumer) would this thing be ideal for? Is it aimed at movie, TV, ENG ???

HDMI could fit with the popular DSLR with clean HDMI output, such as Panasonic GH2.

HD-SDI for pro camera, video switcher. Since the audio on most camera are 48/16 only, and fair to poor mic pre. This PIX240 could be an ideal tool for recording concert (via Video switcher) with premium quality audio embeded in video file. HD SDI allows 8 audio channels, if there will be a PIX 840 with 8 premium audio inputs, it will be another killer.

[rcrowley]

Originally Posted by 9sbean

HDMI could fit with the popular DSLR with clean HDMI output, such as Panasonic GH2.

HD-SDI for pro camera, video switcher. Since the audio on most camera are 48/16 only, and fair to poor mic pre. This PIX240 could be an ideal tool for recording concert (via Video switcher) with premium quality audio embeded in video file. HD SDI allows 8 audio channels, if there will be a PIX 840 with 8 premium audio inputs, it will be another killer.

Assuming that it handles all the legal SDI-HD audio modes. One would hope that is the case for a product from a company with a reputation for audio products.

Most of us don't run audio through our video switchers. So I suppose the cost of an audio insertion device at $500-$1500 is small change for high-end users who can afford that kind of equipment.

[fifthcircle]

Sweet!

Looks like the product to compete with the KiPro, Nanoflasha and a couple of other similar flash based add-on camera recorders. The fact that this one has an LCD means it will probably be a bit more, but it looks like a great product.

Only thing not on their website is the all important data rates for storage... 50, 100mbps?

If I had to guess, I'd say 3-4 thousand. Any less would be a steal.

--Ben

[Audiop]

@Ben

My understanding:

Some cameras output 10bit 4:2:2 uncompressed 1920x1080 29.97fps at 1326Mbit/s via HD-SDI and HDMI. Converted to ProRes this results in the following bitrates:


ProRes HQ - 220Mbit/s
ProRes 422 - 147Mbit/s
ProRes LT - 102Mbit/s
ProRes Proxy - 45Mbit/s

3-4 grand sounds reasonable but man do I hope it's less!


/Peter

[philper]

This thing would compete with the smaller KiPro recorder that is meant to be mounted on a camera. It allows lower end HD cameras like EX1 to record the full output of the camera (instead of compressing the output to record it on the onboard cards).

phil p

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by philper

This thing would compete with the smaller KiPro recorder that is meant to be mounted on a camera. It allows lower end HD cameras like EX1 to record the full output of the camera (instead of compressing the output to record it on the onboard cards).

phil p

Gotta love it - "lower end HD cameras" for $6,300
Sony PMW-EX1R XDCAM EX Full HD Camcorder PMW-EX1R B&H Photo

And I thought audio was expensive!

[Audiop]

Audio is nothing compared to video. :-)

EX1 is a great camera with three 1/2" chips but it can't do low ligt or shallow DOF.

Real pro level cameras with 2/3" goes for about 20000$.

Sony released a cool video cam this year with a APS-C sized chip, PMW-F3. Lower noise than a 5Dmk2 and manage cine style shallow DOF. Costs like 2 EX1 or thereabout.

One of the most interesting new kids on the block is the micro 4/3 Panasonic AG-AF101 which beats most DSLR's even though it doesn't match F3 for low noise.


/Peter

[philper]

Look at it this way: the VIEWFINDER of a Sony F35 costs $2k more than a whole EX1....

phil p

[9sbean]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Gotta love it - "lower end HD cameras" for $6,300
Sony PMW-EX1R XDCAM EX Full HD Camcorder PMW-EX1R B&H Photo

And I thought audio was expensive!

For the same quality system, video cost is always 10X more than audio. Imaging an 8 cam EFP setup compared with main pair + 6 spots for 8 tracks recording. You need more man power to operate the camera, carrying the heavy tripods, big spool of cable drums..., so you'll find a HD OB truck in this kind of event.

8 Schoeps/DPA mic, 2K x 8 = 16K
SD 788, Nagra VI, MH HV3, Grace Design Pre..., 6K~12K
Cables, Stands, cans, bag, trolly, Accessories... 2K?

30K audio is already presitge.

Sony PMW-350 (not to mention 500 or higher version), plus CCU option, HD qualtiy lenses, tripod, memory card... 30K?
Extra for high power zoom, 60K a piece. 2 at least for 8 cam setup.
HD switcher, 10K?
Monitor, 2K
HD-SDI recorder, 2~4K a piece, 2 minimum.
Cables, Intercom... 10K

8 cam setup will be something around 400K, plus an OB van.

[9sbean]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Audio is nothing compared to video. :-)

EX1 is a great camera with three 1/2" chips but it can't do low ligt or shallow DOF.

Real pro level cameras with 2/3" goes for about 20000$.

That is with an entry level lens. A good lens equal to a good mic, and a good lenses cost easily more than 10K. High power lenses cost more than 40K. And you'll need an extra stable PT head plus tripod which cost another 10K and more.

Sony released a cool video cam this year with a APS-C sized chip, PMW-F3. Lower noise than a 5Dmk2 and manage cine style shallow DOF. Costs like 2 EX1 or thereabout.

One of the most interesting new kids on the block is the micro 4/3 Panasonic AG-AF101 which beats most DSLR's even though it doesn't match F3 for low noise.
/Peter

Save the money and get a GH2 plus PIX220 instead. You'll get much better audio and similar/better video quality at lower cost.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by 9sbean

Save the money and get a GH2 plus PIX220 instead. You'll get much better audio and similar/better video quality at lower cost.

Yes, I have been looking at GH2 as well. Need to get them from outside of Sweden though since I record long concerts, opera and such.

The non-EU version has no clip length limits but I'm not sure about frame rates and I need 25fps. Also I'd like lower noise but three GH2 is a tad cheaper than three F3's.. :-)

My benchmark is EX1/EX1R/EX3 and I'd prefer less noise than those give.

Sync to audio is important as well since I record externally with a Lynx Aurora 8 and soon a 788T as well.

I have had drift problems with the EX cam's which I did not experience with some cheap consumer cam's. Have not been able to find an explanation yet even after talking to the rental company and Sony Sweden.

So, for my concert recordings (typically scenic opera) low noise and accurate clock speed is essential.


/Peter

[Audiop]

When recording to an external device like PIX with HDMI.. which clock is the master?

Was thinking if I can use a splitter with the Lynx Aurora 8 word clock out to feed to three PIX hooked up with HDMI to three GH2 for example.


/Peter

[rcrowley]

My benchmark is EX1/EX1R/EX3 and I'd prefer less noise than those give.

No camera of any price has an exemplary audio section. The more expensive the camera, the more likely it is that it will be used with double-system sound, and the on-camera audio (if any) isn't much better than mediocre since it will only be used as a reference track.

[Audiop]

I was talking about the video noise.. :-)

I record external audio with a chain that has inaudible noise (Lynx Aurora 8 as mentioned above).


/Peter

[9sbean]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Sync to audio is important as well since I record externally with a Lynx Aurora 8 and soon a 788T as well.

I have had drift problems with the EX cam's which I did not experience with some cheap consumer cam's. Have not been able to find an explanation yet even after talking to the rental company and Sony Sweden.

So, for my concert recordings (typically scenic opera) low noise and accurate clock speed is essential.


/Peter

I use EX1/EX3 with 722/788. Never experience drift problem with no TC sync. I do mostly classical music. But the video format here is 29.97 and I ran the cam with 60i format. Audio are 48K/96K. No problem what so ever.

[Drum9uy]

PRICE:

PIX 220 - $1495-1595ish
PIX 240 - $2595ish

Amazing market killing deal at that price, especially considering this has a 5" monitor built into it as well. The fact that the 702 alone is $1875 this is crazy. Yes it's limited to 48khz but for video that's standard. Says will be available by summer. Being a GH2 owner myself, this is certainly on the "buy ASAP" list. Just for comparison sake, a nanoflash runs for $2895, no monitor, no XLR pres etc, and only dual CF card option vs. choosing between dual CF cards or SSD drive. It does have the advantage of a few more codecs to choose from but still, with FCP being as popular as it is, ProRes makes sense as their codec choice (hence AJA's choice as well).

Not that it has the preamps (as well as being in a TOTALLY different league) but just to throw it out there for the video slutz as well, Convergent Design (the nanoflash guys) just released Gemini which records 4:4:4 10-bit uncompressed video on 2 x SSD's. Also sporting a 5" screen. Just to give you an idea though of going that route -> 256gb of hard drive space gets you 32min of video at 4:4:4 10-bit uncompressed

it's also $6k, but like I said, that's in a whole different league and for professional film people, (believe it or not) makes shooting uncompressed a whole lot easier and cheaper than the previous solutions.

[9sbean]

Here comes the killers
PIX 240, $2,595
PIX 220, $1,595

NAB 2011 - Sound Devices PIX 240 on Vimeo

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by Drum9uy

Not that it has the preamps (as well as being in a TOTALLY different league) but just to throw it out there for the video slutz as well, Convergent Design (the nanoflash guys) just released Gemini which records 4:4:4 10-bit uncompressed video on 2 x SSD's. Also sporting a 5" screen. Just to give you an idea though of going that route -> 256gb of hard drive space gets you 32min of video at 4:4:4 10-bit uncompressed

Blackmagic Design: HyperDeck Shuttle

uncompressed.

345$ AFAIK.

Model with built in monitor is on the way for around 700$ I heard.

[9sbean]

Originally Posted by apple-q

Blackmagic Design: HyperDeck Shuttle

uncompressed.

345$ AFAIK.

Model with built in monitor is on the way for around 700$ I heard.

That is not only a killer, it is the black killer!

[Audiop]

That is VERY interesting although I can see a point with going directly to ProRes in some situations.

I have never worked with uncompressed so I'm not sure what kind of hardware you need to work with that. I guess a beefy Mac Pro or similar is needed..?

/Peter

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by 9sbean

That is not only a killer, it is the black killer!

Not as smart as the SD box. No TC jam sync (actually no TC at all). No audio-in. No exchangable batteries.

[9sbean]

Originally Posted by apple-q

Not as smart as the SD box. No TC jam sync (actually no TC at all). No audio-in. No exchangable batteries.

Yeah, but it is soooooooooooooooooo cheap! However, Sound Devices set the price at lower point than my guess. I wish the price at 2K, and they are 1.6K and 2.6K.

Blackmagic box could be a good backup unit for its cost.

[ebulb]

if the blackmagic box is really that price its great value.. even if you cant edit uncompressed directly on you computer, you could just use proxy files and then render with the uncompressed clips..

[fifthcircle]

Blackmagic isn't going to be that cheap in the end. Sure the box itself costs next to nothing, however the media is going to be very expensive (getting cheaper, but still a lot). A 1 TB SSD drive is close to $1000 still. If you're recording uncompressed 10bit video, that is some serious data going through. A lot of disc space will be needed so for functional use, count on having several SSD drives for that recorder.

From a user standpoint, I'd probably rather have pro res files. For my work, not that big of a difference in quality and a big difference in size. Like the thought of the SD recorder. May make the Canon camera my client has a lot easier to use...

--Ben

[ebulb]

SSD drives will be a fraction of what they cost now in a couple of years though so that device will get more appealing over time..

Im wondering, do the canon 5D/7D/550D pass the image directly to a HDMI out ? if so the blacmagic box would allow you to record beyond 12mins..

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by ebulb

Im wondering, do the canon 5D/7D/550D pass the image directly to a HDMI out ? if so the blacmagic box would allow you to record beyond 12mins..

My understanding is that 5DmkII at least does put out full HD HDMI when in standby mode. You have to turn off the power save function from the menu to keep the camera running continuously. Battery capacity becomes the time limiting factor and I do not remember seeing a power adaptor for 5DmkII from AC converter the older EOS cameras had as standard accessory . While shooting the output resolution drops to VGA (causing problems with external monitors unless they can auto-adjust).

Getting ProRes422 files right away would save some time even with card based cameras. I use FX305 and copying the files form the card(s) to HDD and logging and transferring them to FCP takes longer than transferring a HDV tape in real time... So much for the speed and convenience of tapeless media...

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by ebulb

SSD drives will be a fraction of what they cost now in a couple of years though so that device will get more appealing over time..
.

"Over time" in that product segment means that in 12 months it will be an outdated piece of metal. No one in that segment saves lousy 1000$ on a machine hoping for cheaper SSDs in a couple of years.