Best ribbons for 'classical'

[JonesH]

I'm thinking about getting a good/great pair of ribbons for diverse classical use. I'm quite happy with my 4006s or Thuresson as main pair usually, and actually got a pair of sE budget ribbons from my dad this christmas wich was sweet.

However, I've been thinking about getting a pair of more up-market ribbons and I wonder what other people are using. The models that seem to pop up frequently are the 4038, R84, SF12/24 and SF-1 plus the Beyers now and then.

What are your experiences with ribbons in orchestral & chamber work?

[Plush]

For cello and violin spot micing it's hard to beat the Coles 4038 or the AEA R84.
The Coles is a darker sound than the R84 and it is the venerable choice. Newer ribbons like the AEA range are a tad less expensive and perform wonders on smoothing and integrating the solo instrument into the stereo picture. How about that AEA stereo ribbon mic, the R88? That thing is killa--I wants one.

If you're into recording brass (or spotting tuba) the ribbon mic is also king.
King for jazz recording too.

I feel that the ribbon mic to choose is the one that is NOT full range; ie. does NOT have extended treble response. So ribbons that try to emulate a condenser mic are not preferred here.

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by Plush

I feel that the ribbon mic to choose is the one that is NOT full range; ie. does NOT have extended treble response. So ribbons that try to emulate a condenser mic are not preferred here.

Much obliged!
I've been very interested in the AEA A840. I might give it a try, it seems well received also in the acoustic business. Would you say that it adheres to this 'not full range' line of thinking of yours?

Thanks for your reply. Also, thanks to you I'm checking out the Flux:: verb. Seems interesting enough!

[Marlan]

I often shy away from using the term "best" here. But I love the Coles 4038.
It works so well on everything from brass spots on orchestra, to classical guitar, strings, and believe it or not, I love using them as room mics when in a studio situation.

[Brackish]

For those of you using the 4038 for classical, do you usually end up lifting the treble in post to make it sound more natural?

[David Spearritt]

Please listen to the Coles 4040 before making your final decision.

[MichaelPatrick]

Royer SF series and AEA R84 or R88

[George Gilliam]

The Coles 4050 stereo pair of ribbon mics should also be on your list to audition. I believe it uses the same ribbon assembly as their 4040, mentioned by David Spearritt. The difference is that it has a unique mount using magnets which makes it extremely easy and secure to place the two microphones in Blumlein (or M-S) configuration. I have had excellent results using this microphone on professional chamber music singers and instruments along with orchestras (plus supporting mics). As Plush and Marlan Barry mentioned, the 4038 Coles is a standard tool for strings and brass. My experience has proven that this latest Coles mic carries on the tradition. Its sound is not dark or colored.

I would advise anyone who is purchasing a pair of ribbon mics for stereo pickup to investigate the Coles 4050. I much prefer its sound over the Royer SF12/24. Unfortunately, I have no direct experience with Wes Dooley's AEA mics.

[Teddy Ray]

The Coles 4040 is really something special.

I've never cared for the Royer Microphones..they lack that "round" rich characteristic and , in my opinion have a bit more "condensor" quality, not as weighty, etc..

The Beyer m130 and m160 are also fantastic. at 1000 bucks or so for the pair, you get great sound and a proven pedigree. thumbsup


Coles 4040 or 4038

I would also avoid the Woodpecker thing..like the plague. it is literally one of the worst microphones I have ever used. Horrid.

[vintagelove]

The SF-12 is just wonderful.

[JonesH]

I'm actually not so interested in a stereo ribbon mic - don't get me wrong, I love the SF24, but it seems too unflexible. Might get a SF-12 further down the road but I'm usually in AB or ORTF-land for the main pair.

So the Coles rears its head again... 4040 seems interesting. 4038 always a classic... And then again there's the A840. Oh, the choices...

[JonesH]

George, I didn't see your post. Thank you very much for putting me onto the 4050 trail! It looks like a tremendously interesting mic pair!! thumbsup

[Norm@gear]

Using AEA R84s in almost every session, often in MS configuration, for solo instruments - clarinet, violin, double bass, vocal. As Mr.Plush said the sound integrates very well in stereo mix. MS gives nice control over spaciousness, if necessary.

Norm

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by George Gilliam

The Coles 4050 stereo pair of ribbon mics should also be on your list to audition.
I would advise anyone who is purchasing a pair of ribbon mics for stereo pickup to investigate the Coles 4050. I much prefer its sound over the Royer SF12/24. Unfortunately, I have no direct experience with Wes Dooley's AEA mics.

Hello George-the 4050 has always looked interesting to me.

Just curious, though, in what ways do you find it sonically different than the Royer 12/24? (I've not used Coles mic's-I know of them, of course, just not used them.)

[Legacy]

Hello to all,

I also like the AEA R84 - very nicely positioned frequency response and smooth character. Great bang for the buck. I've used them as room mics or wide pairs and really was surprised by how nice they were in that context.

Royers are also very nice as both spots or mains.

I still singularly love the RCA 44BX. It does something that no other ribbon does quite the same IMHO. It has to be in really good shape (or rebuilt well - check out Clarence Kane's work if you can) of course but it's a special sound.

Best,
Silas

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by JEGG

Hello George-the 4050 has always looked interesting to me.

Just curious, though, in what ways do you find it sonically different than the Royer 12/24? (I've not used Coles mic's-I know of them, of course, just not used them.)

the 4050 is the stereo version of the 4040 I believe...

if that is the case , the 4040s have a "rounder" sound, more of the "token" ribbon sound, whereas the royers are a bit more condenser-like, dare I say a "smaller" less "warm"sound.

[jnorman]

i have owned pairs of royer r-121s, coles 4038s, cascade fathead IIs, and shinybox 46's. of those, i found the shinybox ribbons to be the most musical to my ears. clearly, however, the secret to getting the best results out of any passive ribbon mics is having a mic preamp designed specifically to accommodate the impedence and gain requirements of non-active ribbon microphones.

[aracu]

I like using the Royer sf24 as a main pair on music which is not meant to sound aggressive or dissonant, in good acoustics. To me it has a signature sound which is slightly ethereal yet natural at the same time, in a suggestive way, which can appeal to the imagination.

A short clip of just sf24 on string orchestra, playing Bach, with eq:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/...24eq.Bach2.mp3

[julian.david]

FYI:
The former Telarc production team, now called Five/Four Productions, around Michael Bishop, Robert Friedrich, and Thomas Moore basically use our AEA ribbons on practically any session. They particularly like using our active ribbons (A840 and A440) due to their low noise floor and the R88 Stereo Microphone. You'll hear those mics on pretty much any Telarc release done by those guys.

Cheers,
Julian

[miketeachesclass]

I've got a pair of the Cascade Fat Head II's (with the lundahl transformer upgrade), and find them very pleasing. I've used them a number of times on a british style brass band with quite a bit of success.

[buzzjoe]

Originally Posted by jnorman

i have owned pairs of royer r-121s, coles 4038s, cascade fathead IIs, and shinybox 46's. of those, i found the shinybox ribbons to be the most musical to my ears. clearly, however, the secret to getting the best results out of any passive ribbon mics is having a mic preamp designed specifically to accommodate the impedence and gain requirements of non-active ribbon microphones.

That's interesting. I had an AEA R84 and a Royer R-122 - both very nice mics but I like my pair of Coles 4038 even better - especially with a AEA TRP or my new Gordon Model 5 preamp. What shinibox model do you use? And why exactly do like it better than the 4038?

Oliver

[Richard Black]

I use a Royer SF12. Only thing I don't like about it is the noise but you're stuck with that with any ribbon. Among other things it is amazingly consistent at any SPL, and perfectly happy with opera singers at point-blank range (well, 4 feet or so) - 109dB!

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by buzzjoe

I had an AEA R84 and a Royer R-122 - both very nice mics but I like my pair of Coles 4038 even better

What was the difference between the 4038 and the R84? What was it about the 4038 that you liked better?

[0VU]

I use quite a lot of ribbon mics, pretty regularly. Currently in the mic cupboard are: AEA R88 Mk1, B+O BM5 x2 (one stock, one with RCA ribbons), Beyer M130, M160 x4, M260 x2, Coles 4015 x3 4040 x2, Oktava ML52, RCA77DX, RCA44 (not working), SE RNR1 x2, Shure 315S x3, 330, and Speiden SF12. And assorted other old/vintage oddities in various conditions from as new to battered and not working. I've amassed these over a long time but the working ones pretty much all get used at some point in any given year.

For a recent recording, I tried out an AEA R840. The main idea was to use it as an alternative to our normal Schoeps CMC6/MK22/RC1200 setup on a concert recording involving a piece with solo trumpet player accompanied by orchestra. We rigged both the AEA and the Schoeps but I wasn't surprised to find that the ribbon was the preferred choice. It's sound suited the piece (Libertango by Astor Piazzolla) and its ability to handle some pretty wide dynamic range trumpet playing without the slight tizziness/edge that the majority of condensers (even the MK22) can impart when things get loud was very welcome. Also, as Plush says, it made much easier the job of blending the trumpet spot with the rest of the mix.

As it was already rigged and moving the mics between pieces wasn't a problem, we gave it a try in rehearsals on a violin soloist in the same concert and found that it worked remarkably well. The final balance chosen was about 80% R840 with about 20% of the Schoeps MK22 putting in some of the wood and Rosin bite of the sound to balance the sweetness and warmth of the R840. As a combination it's one I'd certainly use again. The R840 is definitely very high on the shopping list.

I'd been a little concerned that the proximity effect of a fig-8 ribbon might be a problem if the soloists moved around a lot but it was ok. The proximity effect of the R840 seemed much better controlled than, for example, the RNR1 and from 3-5ft away it was fine even with soloists moving around and didn't present a problem. Also the mic being active removed worries about phantom power mishaps with a fairly busy rig sharing many mics between PA and recording and meant that we had no gain or noise problems. One concern was with footfall noise on the hollow stage being transmitted up the stand but we did our standard thing of placing a Schoeps foam decoupling mat under the stand base (it's needed on the RC1200 setups we usually use) and had no problems at all from that direction.

In the same concert, I used the R88 as a stereo spot on brass and again it worked very well. This is a concert format (multiple different soloists, both 'straight' classical and 'crossover', orchestra, choir, pyrotechnics and full PA reinforcement) which I've been recording for broadcast a couple of times a year for the last 18 years or so and over that time I've used various brass mics. This time, the stage layout made it practical to try the R88 and the results make me want to use it again in that role. In true ribbon style, when the brass got loud, they just got loud. They didn't change in timbre or become harsh sounding in a way that necessitates adjusting the spot balance, so making the mix job easier. They also didn't sound 'spotted'; the tonal balance sounding more distant than my normal TLM170/MC740/CMC62 choices. The only problem I had was with my Mk1 R88 being very sensitive to vibration/noise transmitted up the stand. In a couple of places a combination of the large pyrotechnics used in the show and the PA subs under the stage did trigger a bit of extra LF rumble in the R88, as did the brass players stamping their feet in various applause sections. Mounting the stand on rubber or using something like an Ambient 'Floater' mount would help but neither was an option on this occasion so a touch of high pass filter fixed the problem. I'm looking at the R88 Mk2 as it looks to have better shock mounting and cabling arrangements so I'd expect it to fare better.

The trouble with getting on so well with the R840, is that I think I'll have to buy some. Since AEA's A440, KU4 and new R88 (apparently the HF response is also 'improved' over the Mk1 - but I like the Mk1 sound) are already on the tryout list, it could get expensive! Would I want the R840 as my only 'quality' ribbon mic? Definitely maybe. I don't think I'd tire of it or find it horribly lacking but (I guess like most ribbon mics) it does have quite a strong character which doesn't suit everything and it's not the most visually discrete mic around (we got loads of comments from audience members and musicians wanting to know about it - thankfully all positive comments). That said, it certainly plays nice with other mics in a mix and if you want a ribbon mic that's honest and sounds like a ribbon mic, rather than something trying to pretend to be a condenser, one could do a lot worse than try an R840. (It's worth bearing in mind that like many modern ribbon mics the response isn't symmetrical between front and back so you have two distinct 'flavours' of sound depending upon which way round you rig it but it's not going to make a great S mic in an MS setup.) If I were looking, I'd probably compare it to the Coles 4038/4040, Royer SF12/24, AEA's R84 and perhaps the sE RNR1. All offer different takes on great ribbon mic sounds (and imo the variation is larger than between a bunch of condenser mics at a similar quality level). Thankfully, I haven’t had to pick just one as it's nice to have a choice but once you get to this level it's just different versions of good. Any of them will do a good job sonically, and if it’s not quite right, moving it a bit can give some big changes. Sonically, it mostly comes down to personal/client taste, the kind of music you work on and results you like. Technically, I guess how well your preamps cope with delivering enough gain might be an issue, and maybe, how much you can upset the video director with a huge shiny mic in the middle of his close up shot!

[Corran]

I don't have a ton of experience with high-end ribbon mics such as the Royer/Coles/AEA guys.

BUT I do have a vintage B&O BM-5 ribbon that was custom rebuilt for me by ribbon expert Mark Fouxman. It has newly machined ribbon motors, ribbons, and custom trafos wound by Mark. All told, the mic cost me about $1200 for a stereo ribbon that sounds amazing. Furthermore, the mic can actually be taken apart and used as two mono mics. I haven't gotten an extra cable to do this but it's a cool option that I don't think any other stereo ribbon has. The BM-5 of course was used as the basis for the Speiden and then Royer mics. It is essentially the Royer SF-12's grandfather.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. With my Millenia HV3B cranked to almost maximum I hardly get any hiss from this mic. It is fantastic on orchestra and choir.

[0VU]

Originally Posted by Corran

BUT I do have a vintage B&O BM-5 ribbon that was custom rebuilt for me by ribbon expert Mark Fouxman. It has newly machined ribbon motors, ribbons, and custom trafos wound by Mark. All told, the mic cost me about $1200 for a stereo ribbon that sounds amazing. Furthermore, the mic can actually be taken apart and used as two mono mics. I haven't gotten an extra cable to do this but it's a cool option that I don't think any other stereo ribbon has. The BM-5 of course was used as the basis for the Speiden and then Royer mics. It is essentially the Royer SF-12's grandfather.

That rebuild sounds interesting. My non-stock BM5 just has the standard Sank RCA ribbon mod which works nicely.

The split mono thing is useful - getting the plugs for it isn't easy but they do come up on eBay occasionally. The Coles 4040 stereo adapter gives you a similar kind of stereo/split mono capability though arguably it's from the other direction of two mono mics becoming one stereo mic.

The other BM5 trick that sometimes can be useful is the rotating top system which allows you to vary the physical angle between the two systems. It's a trick that's fairly common on stereo condenser mics like the C24/422/426/SM69/MC742 etc. but not often found on stereo ribbon mics. Again, the Coles 4040 stereo rig can do it but I can't think of any others at the moment. I'm not sure why Speiden dropped it - unless it was to make it easier to build.

[Brackish]

What's available in hypercard ribbon mics? Just the couple handheld-style Beyers?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Brackish

What's available in hypercard ribbon mics? Just the couple handheld-style Beyers?

the beyers are fantastic.

[buzzjoe]

Originally Posted by Brackish

What was the difference between the 4038 and the R84? What was it about the 4038 that you liked better?

To my ears the 4038 has a better transient response than the R84 (I guess it's the 0.6 micron ribbon element) and has more low mid "punch". I like this a lot especially on acoustic guitars, mandolin and percussion. For vocals I like both (with a little EQ).

[julian.david]

Originally Posted by Brackish

What's available in hypercard ribbon mics? Just the couple handheld-style Beyers?

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-product-alert/544933-aea-launches-ku4-unidirectional-ribbon-microphone.html

Shipping very soon! It's more of a supercardioid though, but it has way better bandwidth than a Beyer.