Best ribbons for 'classical'

[Corran]

Originally Posted by 0VU

The split mono thing is useful - getting the plugs for it isn't easy but they do come up on eBay occasionally.

Do you know the model number of the plug for the top section?

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

the beyers are fantastic.

Which of the Beyers do you prefer?

And on what?

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by buzzjoe

To my ears the 4038 has a better transient response than the R84 (I guess it's the 0.6 micron ribbon element) and has more low mid "punch". I like this a lot especially on acoustic guitars

What kind of EQ are you giving the 4038 on accoustic guitar?

[Flute-Picc]

When I was looking at ribbons, I found the video/shootout here to be interesting (although it uses some of the newer ribbons rather than the old, established standbys).

Testing Out Ribbon Microphones for Home Studio Recording | Audio Insights

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by julian.david

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-product-alert/544933-aea-launches-ku4-unidirectional-ribbon-microphone.html

Shipping very soon!

WOW! I had no idea!

Anyone care to speculate on pricing?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Brackish

Which of the Beyers do you prefer?

And on what?

the M130 AND THE m160.

I often use them as a M/S pair. They work extremely well individually on Upright Bass, Brass, Vocals, and Strings.

[julian.david]

Originally Posted by Brackish

WOW! I had no idea!

Anyone care to speculate on pricing?

No need to speculate: Street pricing will be near $4250.00 in the US.

Julian

Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[king2070lplaya]

Regarding the Beyers, I have a 160 that I used as a cello spot for a baroque chamber session a couple weeks ago. Solo'd it sounds fine, maybe a bit on the dull side, and really like, "tight" sounding? I attribute the tightness mostly to the polar pattern, but it took a ton of work to get it to sit right in the mix, and I wouldn't say that I'm still that happy with it. It just had no presence to it, without any eq by the time I turned it up enough to be heard it was overbearing, but any less than that it was unnoticeable. Maybe it's because all the rest of the mics were condensers, or maybe I placed it poorly, maybe there's something wrong with it, I don't know, but I don't think i'll use it again for this application.

I also used it as a vocal spot for a vocal recital recently, and while it worked well on musical theater stuff, it would get overloaded on loud, mainly operatic passages. And it was like, a good 2 feet from the singer, down and pointed up so not in their "blowing" range and it wasn't the preamp clipping. Maybe just the low SPL handling?

I love the mic when I record pop music, for electric guitar it is amaaaazing, and also nice for some drum apps, but unless something happens soon I probably won't use it again for anything classical.

This is just my experience tho, others probably have had great success. I've taken great care never to put this mic in a "dangerous" position, but like I said earlier, I have a hankering suspicion it may be compromised but it still sounds like I remember it sounding when I got it. Anyone know of any good tests to check this?

And I really like the m130 and rely on it for spots when I do most of my classical work, placed right it makes a great vocal spot to isolate the singer from the piano, and sounds really nice on classical trumpets, especially piccolo. Never had it overload on me, not once.

I'm curious to hear reports on the new SE-NEVE ribbon for these applications?

Good luck!

[sonare]

I may be mistaken-- but any noise that comes from a ribbon is actually coming from the mic pre-- the mic is passive. Of course-- impedance comes into the equation, but the real question is about amount of gain and the noise that is a side effect-- look at the AEA TRP specs-- esp the input impedance.

Rich

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya

Regarding the Beyers, I have a 160 that I used as a cello spot for a baroque chamber session a couple weeks ago. Solo'd it sounds fine, maybe a bit on the dull side, and really like, "tight" sounding? I attribute the tightness mostly to the polar pattern, but it took a ton of work to get it to sit right in the mix, and I wouldn't say that I'm still that happy with it. It just had no presence to it

It is a ribbon mic

if you compare it with condensors, you will have a characteristic rolled off top. I find this to be a great virtue, never a weakness. I have dozens of samples with the Beyers, ill post them if someone would like(although I am of the mind that "comparison samples" as used on internet forums ar of e little intrinsic value.

[king2070lplaya]

.... ? Yeah that's why I bought it

[buzzjoe]

Originally Posted by Brackish

What kind of EQ are you giving the 4038 on accoustic guitar?

When I am lazy: itb: Angeltone. I don't have a big collection of outboard EQs but I like e.g. the Avedis E27 here.

The 4038 (and ribbons in general) take EQ very well :-)

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by buzzjoe

When I am lazy: itb: Angeltone.

What I meant was: what are you doing in EQ for accoustic guitar? Not which brand of EQ you are using.

[buzzjoe]

Originally Posted by Brackish

What I meant was: what are you doing in EQ for accoustic guitar? Not which brand of EQ you are using.

Usually I add about 2 db high shelf (starting from about 7k) and cut the low mids a little (wide Q around 150-500 Hz). Of course it depends on the guitar, strings, room...

[Richard Black]

Originally Posted by sonare

I may be mistaken-- but any noise that comes from a ribbon is actually coming from the mic pre-- the mic is passive. Of course-- impedance comes into the equation, but the real question is about amount of gain and the noise that is a side effect-- look at the AEA TRP specs-- esp the input impedance.

Rich

This is a common misconception, but in fact on closer investigation it turns out that typically the thermal (Johnson) noise of the mic is higher in level than that of the mic amp. The amp does always add noise, just not much. (For instance my homebrew mic amp has a noise figure of approx. 1dB, that is, it adds something in the region of 1dB noise to that of the mic, which ain't much.)

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Richard Black

For instance my homebrew mic amp has a noise figure of approx. 1dB, that is, it adds something in the region of 1dB noise to that of the mic, which ain't much.

The noise figure of a preamp is not the amount of noise that it adds to the mic noise. It is the difference between its actual self noise level and the absolute minimum noise level as fixed by the input load inmpedance (which is the impedance of the mic) and the temperature. Whether the preamp noise is of concern or not with respect to the mic noise depends on the mic noise level and the mic sensitivity. Because passive ribbon mic have very low sensitivity, the preamp noise is generally higher than the mic noise.

[choros]

Originally Posted by sonare

I may be mistaken-- but any noise that comes from a ribbon is actually coming from the mic pre-- the mic is passive. Of course-- impedance comes into the equation, but the real question is about amount of gain and the noise that is a side effect-- look at the AEA TRP specs-- esp the input impedance.

Rich

RCA 77D - Noise and hum.

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Firstly no hiss at all ever got induced, created or eminated from a ribbon mic.
The hiss is in the pre amp, the hum is a stray electromagnetic field affecting the mic (does it change when you move it), dried out power supply caps in the pre? or an earth loop or just generally poor grounding.
What impedance is the mic set on 50 or 250 what is the matching impedance of your pre amp, is this Retro product idealized as ribbon pre or is it a 600 ohm nominal input impedance product circa 45 DB max gain and far more suited to a modern high output LDC really?.
What does it sound like via an AEA trp or a real RCA tube pre. perhaps that clever little Steven Sank cloud lifter gizmo might get you more there:
Cloudlifter preamp review

Originally Posted by Richard Black

This is a common misconception, but in fact on closer investigation it turns out that typically the thermal (Johnson) noise of the mic is higher in level than that of the mic amp. The amp does always add noise, just not much. (For instance my homebrew mic amp has a noise figure of approx. 1dB, that is, it adds something in the region of 1dB noise to that of the mic, which ain't much.)

I read the first quote above from this thread and then the 2nd quote on another thread recently so I just bought the AEA TRP hoping to solve my hiss issues - it hasn't arrived yet. But now I'm more confused. I bought the AEA TRP to power my pair of Beyer M160's.

I'm recording very quiet instruments - (classical guitar mostly) - and getting some hiss with my ULN-2 preamps. (I thought they were supposed to be very quiet even at high gains?) Anyway, since I thought I just found out that ribbons mics are "hissless", I figured I'd be able to get an essentially inaudible noise floor with the AEA TRP/Beyer M160 combo - (or at least equal to the noise floor I'm getting with quiet/highly sensitive condenser mics and the ULN-2 preamps - which is very quiet/inaudible. Is this not so? Could it be the M160's self noise that I'm hearing after all? Or at least a combination of the M160's noise and the ULN-2 preamps?




Thanks,

Jay

[JEGG]

Jay-please report on your experience after you receive the TRP. My guess is that you will be pleased.

There is an interactive element to these devices (impedance relationships and loading), and beyond that, noise can take on quite different subjective qualities-in terms of how audible or obnoxious it is.

I hope it turns out well for you-I think it will-and it would be very interesting and helpful for many of us if you tell us what happens with your Beyer/TRP ensemble, and the differences, however subjective, of that with the Beyer/ULN ensemble.

Thanks!

[choros]

Originally Posted by JEGG

Jay-please report on your experience after you receive the TRP. My guess is that you will be pleased
Thanks!

Will do JEGG. I'm looking fwd to it. And thanks - I hope that I'll be pleased too!

Jay

[recordinghopkins]

Some great suggestions here.
I didn't read the whole thread.

One thing I didn't see mentioned:
the size and weight of the mic you choose is important as well. If you're talking about live gigs, a big ol' AEA or Coles might not be the best for line of sight, and some ribbons, as I am sure you know, can get quite heavy and will require more massive stands to keep them safe and upright. Something to think about, because we all know that "looks good" and "sounds good" are often inversly proportional. Especially if there's video.

I've rented the SF12 a few times with GML preamps for a chamber orch main pair and for solo piano, they didn't let me down. This combination is especially natural sounding on piano. thumbsup

[Richard Black]

Re noise - put it this way: if a ribbon mic has an impedance of, let's say, 200ohms, the absolute lowest noise you can ever expect to get is that of a 200ohm resistor across the input of the mic amp. Even if the mic amp is the finest on the planet, that amount of noise will be non-vanishing. It's easy enough to solder a resistor across pins 2 and 3 of an XLR and try it with your mic amp!