Schoeps vs. Sennheiser active tubes

[fifthcircle]

Anybody know the dimensional specs of the two active stand systems? I've been debating as to if I should get collette stands or Sennheiser 8000 active stands.

One of the things that would be good is if I could use the same poles, bases and clutches for both Schoeps and Sennheiser tubes. However, I'm having a bit of a difficult time finding the specs for both (other than length). Anybody know if they will fit in the other brand's hardware?

--Ben

[studer58]

Ben,

I'm guessing that you either have some high paying gigs coming up or else the clients are insisting on 'optimal invisibility' for your mic arrays (or a melding of the two) due perhaps to video capture concerns without a lot of ugly mic suspension hardware hanging around in the visual field ? For a much lower cost you could go the IKEA stand option (see threads in this forum) or simply bite the bullet and go with whatever the majority of your capsules dictate ? It's extremely unlikely that Sch.. and Sen... would have collaborated (even unwittingly) to make their mic suspension systems interchangeable. Bullets can be yummy

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Anybody know the dimensional specs of the two active stand systems? I've been debating as to if I should get collette stands or Sennheiser 8000 active stands.

One of the things that would be good is if I could use the same poles, bases and clutches for both Schoeps and Sennheiser tubes. However, I'm having a bit of a difficult time finding the specs for both (other than length). Anybody know if they will fit in the other brand's hardware?

--Ben

I would think they would be pretty close and very likely would be interchangeable.

Yes - I do understand what you want to do.

You want to get the base, upright and swivel from one brand and use the extension tubes from either brand on the same stand.

It's noteworthy that the new Neumann stands and swivel are exactly the same as the Sennheiser 8000 series ones - they have the same name and part numbers. Only the base is different as it has the Neumann name printed on it, rather than Sennheiser.

The Nextel finish of the Neumann and Sennheiser units is slightly darker than the Nextel Schoeps use (officially Sennheiser use "Nextel Black", but it comes out as a dark grey).

I suggest you contact Schoeps and Sennheiser and get the diameters of the uprights and tubes - but I think they would be close enough to clamp properly.

If there is a slight difference, go for the swivel designed for the smaller as it should open up enough to clamp both - if you got the one for the larger, it is likely to be loose and sloppy if used on the smaller.

I hope this helps.

[0VU]

I haven't seen the Sennheiser tubes (or the new Neumann ones), but Schoeps uprights are 12mm diameter with female 3/8" Whitworth thread tapped into the bottom and a male thread on the top (usually under a little threaded cap to make them look pretty - 'til you hire them out and the hirer loses the caps!) so you can join them end to end to make taller uprights. There's no leeway in the clamping chuck on the stand base - it works on 12mm but nothing larger, and it won't tighten properly onto 10mm. Haven't tried 11mm. There are also cheaper ways of getting bases for these systems.

The Schoeps RC tubes are 8mm in diameter and the RG8 swivel (which joins the tubes to the uprights) is made to fit the 8mm tube to a 12mm upright. There's some leeway but really not much as they're designed for a tight fit on 12/8mm kit. Ime, the RG8 plastic also gets brittle as it gets old and seems to snap easily so using it with different diameter kit might be a problem. Again, hiring them out seems to be a recipe for breakage!

I got fed up with things getting broken so I've been working on a design for a metal replacement for my RG8s. It's all but finished so when I get the final ones made and the Nextel coating done (just painted the prototypes) I'll be replacing all my RG8s with the metal ones. As I also have some DPA and Neumann extensions (which are different diameters from the Schoeps) and it's been designed to take them too, as well as a few other tricks.


Apart from the diameters, the only real problem with sharing bases and uprights between systems is likely to be colour mismatches. If these don't matter, with a bit of thought you can mix and match a lot of this stuff.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by 0VU

I haven't seen the Sennheiser tubes (or the new Neumann ones), but Schoeps uprights are 12mm diameter with female 3/8" Whitworth thread tapped into the bottom and a male thread on the top (usually under a little threaded cap to make them look pretty - 'til you hire them out and the hirer loses the caps!) so you can join them end to end to make taller uprights. There's no leeway in the clamping chuck on the stand base - it works on 12mm but nothing larger, and it won't tighten properly onto 10mm. Haven't tried 11mm. There are also cheaper ways of getting bases for these systems.

The Schoeps RC tubes are 8mm in diameter and the RG8 swivel (which joins the tubes to the uprights) is made to fit the 8mm tube to a 12mm upright. There's some leeway but really not much as they're designed for a tight fit on 12/8mm kit. Ime, the RG8 plastic also gets brittle as it gets old and seems to snap easily so using it with different diameter kit might be a problem. Again, hiring them out seems to be a recipe for breakage!

I got fed up with things getting broken so I've been working on a design for a metal replacement for my RG8s. It's all but finished so when I get the final ones made and the Nextel coating done (just painted the prototypes) I'll be replacing all my RG8s with the metal ones. As I also have some DPA and Neumann extensions (which are different diameters from the Schoeps) and it's been designed to take them too, as well as a few other tricks.


Apart from the diameters, the only real problem with sharing bases and uprights between systems is likely to be colour mismatches. If these don't matter, with a bit of thought you can mix and match a lot of this stuff.

Thanks 0VU.

I am trying to get confirmation of the diameters of the Sennheiser equivalents.

Colour wise - the Sennheiser is a slightly darker Nextel than the Schoeps.

I think, if I had the choice, I would use a slightly darker base and upright than a slightly lighter one - I think it would look less odd that way.

[0VU]

I think, if I had the choice, I would use a slightly darker base and upright than a slightly lighter one - I think it would look less odd that way.

Yep, I'd go with that. The standard Schoeps bases are black.

I have a bunch of grey Nextel bases which I prefer for in picture work but they're lighter (in weight - and a bit smaller) so could be unstable with for example a 1200mm tube on a 1000mm+ upright. They're fine up to about 600mm, though, and lower profile than Schoeps's own base so nicer in front of singers and the like on front of stage.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by 0VU

I haven't seen the Sennheiser tubes (or the new Neumann ones), but Schoeps uprights are 12mm diameter with female 3/8" Whitworth thread tapped into the bottom and a male thread on the top (usually under a little threaded cap to make them look pretty - 'til you hire them out and the hirer loses the caps!) so you can join them end to end to make taller uprights. There's no leeway in the clamping chuck on the stand base - it works on 12mm but nothing larger, and it won't tighten properly onto 10mm. Haven't tried 11mm. There are also cheaper ways of getting bases for these systems.

OK - I have just had confirmation that the diameter of the Sennheiser MZE extension tubes is 8mm and the MZEF uprights is 12mm - so this is the same as Schoeps. Also, the uprights are also standard 3/8" Whitworth microphone threads with a little screw cap so you can screw them together to make a taller stand (same as Schoeps do it).

The PDF overview of the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series system is HERE if you want to take a look.

I hope this helps.

[fifthcircle]

Good to know that they should work with each other...

I ask as the classical world is always worried about what things look like. I have currently 4 Sennheiser 8000 mics and proably 10 Schoeps. The clients have loved the look of the DPA flamingo stands that I have rented in the past, but I haven't invested in the DPA line (just my trusty 4006s)

I also regularly have things like needing to place spot mics in front of a conductor and the full size mount and microphone just won't cut it. Low profile rules in that situation.

My hope was to get a couple bases with differing length poles and a single set of clutches to hold everything. From there i can place the active extension tube on the stands and get what I need. I've learned with my rigs that modular approaches always work best. Get something that can work in a variety of situtions and pack it in a way that isn't specific to one kind of gig. In this case, the bases stay the same and the poles switch out depending on which microphones I need for a given gig.

--Ben

[0VU]

Originally Posted by John Willett

OK - I have just had confirmation that the diameter of the Sennheiser MZE extension tubes is 8mm and the MZEF uprights is 12mm - so this is the same as Schoeps. Also, the uprights are also standard 3/8" Whitworth microphone threads with a little screw cap so you can screw them together to make a taller stand (same as Schoeps do it).

The PDF overview of the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series system is HERE if you want to take a look.

I hope this helps.

Thanks John.

So Sennheiser have the same mechanical spec, remarkably similar swivel joint design, same threaded rod jointing idea and the same type of paint finish. So much for designing their own system. Ah well, if they're going to copy a system, they might as well copy the best Perhaps they're hoping that some mechanical compatibility will make it more likely that people who already have a big commitment to the Schoeps hardware might try the new kid on the block if they don't need to completely replace everything to do it.

On the bright side, my new standy bits will be compatible with Sennheiser's system too and I don't even have to think about it. thumbsup

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I also regularly have things like needing to place spot mics in front of a conductor and the full size mount and microphone just won't cut it. Low profile rules in that situation.

I agree, I posted some pictures of my MKH 8000 stereo rig using a single stand and extension tube HERE. It's the 60cm upright and 120cm extension tube.

[0VU]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Good to know that they should work with each other...

I ask as the classical world is always worried about what things look like. I have currently 4 Sennheiser 8000 mics and proably 10 Schoeps. The clients have loved the look of the DPA flamingo stands that I have rented in the past, but I haven't invested in the DPA line (just my trusty 4006s)

I also regularly have things like needing to place spot mics in front of a conductor and the full size mount and microphone just won't cut it. Low profile rules in that situation.

My hope was to get a couple bases with differing length poles and a single set of clutches to hold everything. From there i can place the active extension tube on the stands and get what I need. I've learned with my rigs that modular approaches always work best. Get something that can work in a variety of situtions and pack it in a way that isn't specific to one kind of gig. In this case, the bases stay the same and the poles switch out depending on which microphones I need for a given gig.

--Ben

Yep, modularity and compatibility are definitely the way to go when you can.

I don't have any Sennheiser MKH stuff - well, one 8040 but that doesn't really count as it's just the mic - but I've got quite a lot of Schoeps, and Neumann, and a few DPAs. The ability to share things like stands, bases, mounts, etc. between them is a big time/money saver and obviously makes it easier to swap things around on jobs.

I know what you mean about classical people being fanatical about how things look. The worst seem to be video directors who specialise in classical. They want it to sound like a CD session but not see half a dozen mics hanging or on stands in sensible places. Then it often ends up as tens of mics up the chuffs of the players and trying to polish the result into something that sounds like you meant to do it! That gets expensive on extension tubes.


____________________________________
John, I just thought, you mentioned that the new Neumann stuff is basically the same as the Sennheiser setup. So if they're now compatible with Schoeps too that'll make life a lot easier!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by 0VU

John, I just thought, you mentioned that the new Neumann stuff is basically the same as the Sennheiser setup. So if they're now compatible with Schoeps too that'll make life a lot easier!

Yes - the stand for the new KM-D and KM-A series uses the same stand and accessories as the MKH 8000 series - just different screw connectors on the extension tubes and remote cables.




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[RobAnderson]

So if they're now compatible with Schoeps too that'll make life a lot easier!

I think someone might be mis-reading something here (or maybe I am ).

I can't see how the Sennheiser 8000 series stuff would be interchangeable with SCHOEPS Collette series.

I am looking at the two mic's side by side right now.

There is no way that you are going to get a Collette capsule onto an MKH8000 body, so by extension (forgive the pun) there is no way you are getting a Collette capsule onto an MKH8000 active stand. These are NOT compatible.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I think someone might be mis-reading something here (or maybe I am ).

I can't see how the Sennheiser 8000 series stuff would be interchangeable with SCHOEPS Collette series.

I am looking at the two mic's side by side right now.

There is no way that you are going to get a Collette capsule onto an MKH8000 body, so by extension (forgive the pun) there is no way you are getting a Collette capsule onto an MKH8000 active stand. These are NOT compatible.

You are misunderstand the question.

It was not about using a Schoeps capsule on a Sennheiser extension tube (and it's not an "active" stand, by the way) - it was about using Schoeps capsules and tubes on the Sennheiser base and swivel adaptor (or vice versa). And there seems no problem in doing that at all as Schoeps and Sennheiser (and the new Neumann) have uprights the same diameter and extension tubes the same diameter.


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[0VU]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I think someone might be mis-reading something here (or maybe I am ).

I can't see how the Sennheiser 8000 series stuff would be interchangeable with SCHOEPS Collette series.

I am looking at the two mic's side by side right now.

There is no way that you are going to get a Collette capsule onto an MKH8000 body, so by extension (forgive the pun) there is no way you are getting a Collette capsule onto an MKH8000 active stand. These are NOT compatible.

Um.....no, I'm not mis-reading anything but your post suggests it wasn't as clear as I thought it was that I was writing in the context of this thread which is about the physical dimensions and stand types used by the two systems, not anything else. I have equipment in a more than one system (currently Schoeps, Neumann (KM100 and KM8x), DPA, and one Sennheiser MKH80xx) and, until recently, some AKG C460/VR1/VR2 kits, and I'm well aware that you can't interchange between Schoeps and Sennheiser electronics, any more than you can amongst any of the others.

So just to clear up any mis-reading, Schoeps, Sennheiser and the NEW Neumann KM-D and KM-A Series extension tubes are physically similar in size (12mm uprights, 8mm tubes) such that they CAN share the same stand bases, uprights and mounting clamps. Which is good news for me at least. And for the person who started the thread. Older Neumann stuff, such as the KVF extensions for the KM100 series, and some other systems, are not the same size as the others.

Schoeps, Sennheiser, Neumann, DPA, etc., etc. mic bodies and capsules are NOT physically or electronically compatible and can't be interchanged, nor can they share electronic accessories.

[RobAnderson]

I am glad to see it was me!

John Willett is way too reliable a source of info for that kind of misunderstanding.

However, I am glad I made the mistake so that if anyone else was misreading it, they won't be in for a shock later!

I will say that the Nextel coating on the Sennheiser tubes flakes off really easily.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I will say that the Nextel coating on the Sennheiser tubes flakes off really easily.

Complain to Sennheiser - if it's not a batch problem it's something that they need to be aware of to fix it.




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[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I can't see how the Sennheiser 8000 series stuff would be interchangeable with SCHOEPS Collette series.

It's not and if you read my posts, the question will be pretty obvious. One set of bases and multiple tubes depending on the mics that I have on stage. The Sennheiser extension tubes are much cheaper than Schoeps, but sometimes I need Schoeps. On the flip side, the Schoeps bases are a touch less expensive than the Sennheiser. Gonna be expensive, but worth it in the end. Just need to save my pennies.

--Ben

[RobAnderson]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

It's not and if you read my posts, the question will be pretty obvious. One set of bases and multiple tubes depending on the mics that I have on stage. The Sennheiser extension tubes are much cheaper than Schoeps, but sometimes I need Schoeps. On the flip side, the Schoeps bases are a touch less expensive than the Sennheiser. Gonna be expensive, but worth it in the end. Just need to save my pennies.

--Ben

Yep

Mea culpa Ben - a long string of very long days had dulled both my eyes and my wits.

However, I don't think the Nextel coating problem on the Sennheiser tubes was a "batch" issue. I'll resist going off-topic here, but I have also had some other issues with products in this MKH8000 line, and am a little miffed at the thought of being an unwitting beta-tester for products in this price bracket.

For the price Sennheiser are charging for these things, I'd expect the manufacturer to have done their homework before going to market.

[fifthcircle]

No worries Rob...

I've heard of other issues with the Nextel finish- not with my mics, but with other colleague's microphones. I don't know of anybody with the tubes so i cannot comment on those.

My current beef w/ Sennheiser is because one of my omnis (8020) developed a nosie and sending it to Sennheiser took the mic out of my posession for about three weeks. And this was for a warranty repair that I asked to be rushed.

--Ben

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I will say that the Nextel coating on the Sennheiser tubes flakes off really easily.

I made enquiries about this.

Sennheiser did have a batch problem with Nextel.

This is now fixed.

They suggest taking it back to your local Sennheiser Agent to be re-bodied.


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[RobAnderson]

Thanks John.

Do you happen to know if there is a range of particular dates/serial numbers, or will they just take it no questions asked?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Thanks John.

Do you happen to know if there is a range of particular dates/serial numbers, or will they just take it no questions asked?

Sorry, I don't have this information.

I just copied the comment from the earlier post back to the product manager in Germany and this was the reply I got.

I just thought the manufacturer should know about a problem - and if it was known about and fixed, then we should know about it.

They say it's a problem that was fixed and they'll sort any that have been affected.

On another note - I went to my local angling shop yesterday and found the perfect storage tube for my extension tubes. Cost me £2.99 and is perfect for any extension tubes from the likes of Sennheiser, Schoeps, Neumann, etc..

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