Best way to mic a Leslie cabinet

[AlanTide]

I am doing a location recording of a gentleman playing his Hammond B3 through a single Leslie cabinet tomorrow night. Given what mics I have, how would you place the mics etc? Here is my mic list:

3ea AT 4033
CAD E200
Shure KSM32sl
4 Senn MD421
RCA Type DX 77
AKG D112
various SM57's and SM 58's

I plan to use a small Mackie 1202 or something similar and go straight into a Tascam CD-RW700. I debated on taking an adat, but for this situation, I think that is overkill. Should I just take the CD recorder and 2 SM57's and be done with it? Or should I take a few condensor mics and the Mackie mixer etc? What if he really ends up with 2 Leslie cabs? How would you mic it all up? You guys rock!!!

[Kawriver]

For ambience use whatever you like, but if its a new leslie they have and internal mic built in for just this problem. All you have to do is run a cable and ! thumbsup

[gsharp]

Based on what I'm familiar with out of your collection I'd go:

D112 or RCA on the bottom
57's or 421's on the top

[dbbubba]

A lot of people do not realize that the louvres are there for a reason.
Their design creates the sound that is the classic Leslie sound.
Turn the Leslie so that the open side faces away from the sound field.
In other words the sound will propogate into the room via the louvres.
You also don't want it to close to a wall if possible because the low end will build up.
DEFINITELY don't put it in a corner!

Mic the top louvres with a pair of SM57s about 2 ft. away and the bottom louvers in the front with the D112 places about 1 ft. away.
Pan nthe 57s left and right and put the D112 in the middle.

This is as good as it gets.

Your guy sounds like a purist and this mic'ing technique will capture what most Hammond players expect.

A good friend of mine is a Hammond "expert" and master player.
He loves how his rig sounds when I mic it this way.

You can get the drastic SAWSH of the Leslie and a distorted Hammond like Kieth Emerson by putting one mic in the big opening. It is a fairly ugly sound in a mix though. You could also just put one large diaphragm condenser in front of the Leslie and get a decent mono sound.

Danny Brown

[Cujo]

This place must be Psychic, this is the secidn thread today I was going to start and someone beat me to it!
I am doing a Hammond session this weekend and I was looking for ideas other than what I used to do. It is my hammond, an old (60's) conssole with a leslie that has only one speaker that is stationary and it has a plate with a fan type thing that spins the sound out. I don't know what model it is.

Anyway, I was thinking that 57's would be too blairy, and was leaning to one 421.
This project is sort of a London Calling thing, not ELP.

[Benjy King]

Quote:
A lot of people do not realize that the louvres are there for a reason.
Their design creates the sound that is the classic Leslie sound.
Turn the Leslie so that the open side faces away from the sound field.
In other words the sound will propogate into the room via the louvres.
You also don't want it to close to a wall if possible because the low end will build up. DEFINITELY don't put it in a corner!
___________

I beg to differ, based on historical documentation.

Laurens Hammond invented the Hammond organ and designed it be played with a tone cabinet (most consisted of four ten inch speakers.) This is the 'classic' non-Leslie sound you hear on early Ray Charles albums like Genius+Soul=Jazz. Don Leslie later invented the Leslie speaker, which was designed to be in movie theatres for the organist who played along with silent movies. The speaker was designed to be placed with it's open side close to the wall in the pit. The idea being that the spinning speaker array would bounce off of the wall and spread out into the theatre. The luvres were mostly aesthetic.


Laurens Hammond.
His patent for the Hammond organ was granted on 24 April 1934. Feuded with Donald James Leslie over his invention of the Leslie speaker. Held 110 patents.

Don Leslie.
Donald Leslie was very impressed with the sound of a Hammond organ in a concert hall but less taken with it in a confined space -- the sound had no resonance, and the pure electronic oscillators sounded "dull, shrill, and still" to Leslie's ear. To remedy this problem, in 1937 he invented a special speaker which rotates inside its cabinet, producing a Doppler effect which modulates the sound, to a certain extent imitating the resonance of the organ in a large, hall space by projecting it in 360 degrees. This device was eventually won of over 50 patents he owned.

When Laurens Hammond refused to buy his invention, he started a company, Electro Music, to produce the speakers. Wanting to keep control of their organ's sound, Hammond went to great lengths to defeat Leslie's invention: changing connectors on newer models, and forbidding Hammond organ merchants to sell Leslie speakers. In 1965 his company was acquired by CBS; Leslie remained as a consultant long enough to see Hammond's death in 1973, at which point Hammond's company warmed to the invention, officially honoring it in 1978. Leslie retired in 1980.

[dbbubba]

You may beg to differ, but almost every recording book and mic'ing guide I have ever seen recommends mic'ing from the louvre side. It might have been designed to bounce off of a wall, but the louvres were definitely NOT put there on a whim. If it was designed for the sound to ONLY bounce off of a wall why would the louvres even be there?

I didn't make this up! I've read it many times over the years... since about 1974 when I first started recording seriously. In fact, a KYBD player in one band I was in put his Leslie 144 offstage and we mic'ed it in stereo from the louvre side.

PLUS How are you going to get stereo from the open side?

My point was that you need to have the mics away from the cabinet to pickup the entire soundfield generated by the whole unit. Granted, the sound would possibly be fuller out in the room with the unit agaisnt a wall, but unless you are using room mics you won't really hear this. Of course, this guy is recording a solo organist, so he might want the entire room sound. I just need more control because I usually deal with the organ in an ensemble situation.

The method I use gives me more control of the sound in an ensemble situation where I might not want the sound of the entire room.

The single mic in the big hole by the top rotor was a way to isolate the mic and avoid leakage on loud rock-n-roll stages. It isn't a very good representation of the sound of a Leslie cab for sure!

No, I know how to get a VERY good Hammond sound.
I mic from the louvre side and several old school organists with pretty good credentilalsI will vouch for the sound.

Also, I have a pic of Jimmy Smith recording and I can see the Leslie.
It ain't against a wall either!
In fact, it is up on a pedastal!

Danny Brown

[r0ck1r0ck2]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

It ain't against a wall either!
In fact, it is up on a pedastal!

Danny Brown

as it should be..

[dbbubba]

In Jimmy Smith's case it should be "up on an ALTER!"
Kneel before to the vibe being laid down.

Danny Brown

[dbbubba]

On the "Root Down" LP of Jimmy Smith I see a single U87 crammed right up against the grill of a solidstae Leslie. One of those big tall Tolex covered things.

I guess he needed to be loud?

There is also a full rythym section and it is a live recording at a club.

Danny Brown

[nadsatrebel]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

A lot of people do not realize that the louvres are there for a reason.
Their design creates the sound that is the classic Leslie sound.
Turn the Leslie so that the open side faces away from the sound field.
In other words the sound will propogate into the room via the louvres.
You also don't want it to close to a wall if possible because the low end will build up.
DEFINITELY don't put it in a corner!

Mic the top louvres with a pair of SM57s about 2 ft. away and the bottom louvers in the front with the D112 places about 1 ft. away.
Pan nthe 57s left and right and put the D112 in the middle.

This is as good as it gets.

Your guy sounds like a purist and this mic'ing technique will capture what most Hammond players expect.

A good friend of mine is a Hammond "expert" and master player.
He loves how his rig sounds when I mic it this way.

You can get the drastic SAWSH of the Leslie and a distorted Hammond like Kieth Emerson by putting one mic in the big opening. It is a fairly ugly sound in a mix though. You could also just put one large diaphragm condenser in front of the Leslie and get a decent mono sound.

Danny Brown

Agreed about the louvers. I personally would use two sdcs on the top and one ldc on the basket. Keep in mind ya gotta take the time with placement and distance, but you can really get a killer sound if yer patient.

[Kingtone]

Being a hammond player and owner of many years... using a LOT of different leslies...
in the end.. louvres or no louvres... it doesnt really matter. More than half the time i pull the back off and have one mic at the front and one at the back.
it all depends if you want a wider stereo sound or smaller. the leslie horn is located off centre anyway. so if you do mic "left and right" of the box... you will have an unbalanced stereo image.

my advice.... is try the tried and true methods.. but who cares if it is in 1 book or 100 recording books!!!! figure out what sounds best to you and your hammond playing accomplice by trying DIFFERENT things! Ive used many different mic'ing techniques... and so you should because each hammond is a different beast. not ONE is the same as another in tone or timbre.

[absrec]

Allright, you ready?

I have found this method to work wonderfully on leslie cab. Looking at the back of the cab, I usually take off the plate that's over the horn and the plate over top of the rotor. So when looking at the back, the top 3-4 inches is open and the bottom foot or so is open. If I'm going stereo, which can sometimes prove to be pointless, I'll do a pair of SM57s, AKG 414s, AT4033s micing the sides right up against the louvres at 45* angles and an RE20 right up the rotor's ass. I'm talking in that little space between the amp and the spinning drum. If you didn't have access to an RE20 or a PL20, just use a 421. The low end is pretty similar on those. If I'm going mono, I'll put the single horn mic either in the same place as the stereo method or pointing (at an angle) at the 3-4 inches of open space where you can see the horn spinning.

As far as pres, I usually use something kind of dark sounding. Maybe something with tubes or a pair of 1272s. If you have the capability, blending this whole thing through a pair of DBX 160 A,X,XT(s) can be the icing on the cake.

Good luck!

[Cujo]

Hmm, Interesting, you compress a Leslie?

[borau]

If you're in a nice room:
A pair of ribbons in blumlein a couple of meters away from the Leslie.

[Benjy King]

Oh, man......I was in no way suggesting anyone put it against a wall. I was just having fun pointing out the kookyness of it's first use. I think it's funny.

Live I prefer the Gregg Allman approach: Leslie up on a road case with the open side facing my back about three feet behind me.

[Jamstudio]

how about a ms setup

Remco

[absrec]

Originally Posted by Cujo

Hmm, Interesting, you compress a Leslie?

Is there some problem with that? Everyone I've ever talked to does the same. I mean, don't crush it @ infinity:1 or anything. Just put a little duck butter on it. You know what I'm sayin'? Just massage it on the tushy a little.

[Matt Grondin]

I've been doing a pair of condensers (Gefell m930's) in XY on the front of the Leslie with a RE-20 on the bass. Someone told me that in conversations with an organ tech, they figured that it's not a good idea to put mics on each side of the Leslie. Apparently, it increases the apparent speed of the Leslie... it doesn't sound bad at all because I used to do it, and it does sound spacious, but I guess by having the horn rotating with the two mics in different spots, it makes the Leslie sound like it's going faster or something... maybe it's complete bullshit, but it DOES kind of make sense in a "I don't know shit about physics" sort of way. XY's been working great for me lately, it's got plenty of depth, and no phase issues.

[Benjy King]

It makes sense because sound only comes out one end of the rotating horn. If you have mics on either side of the cabinet the sound is going to arrive....well, you get it. X/Y in front would certainly approximate more like what we hear standing in front of the Leslie. And where is the "stereo" that keeps being mentioned. The beauty of all of this is...it all sounds good! One of the best sounding Hammonds that comes to mind, in a rock record, is on Dark Side Of The Moon. One mic 7 feet away, no compression.

[GPl]

Originally Posted by Benjy King

It makes sense because sound only comes out one end of the rotating horn. If you have mics on either side of the cabinet the sound is going to arrive....well, you get it. X/Y in front would certainly approximate more like what we hear standing in front of the Leslie. And where is the "stereo" that keeps being mentioned. The beauty of all of this is...it all sounds good! One of the best sounding Hammonds that comes to mind, in a rock record, is on Dark Side Of The Moon. One mic 7 feet away, no compression.

What about "whipping post" live at carnegy hall?

[Cujo]

No, never any problem, I just figured it was a fairly consistant sound source,
Of course, there are swells and what not.

Originally Posted by absrec

Is there some problem with that? Everyone I've ever talked to does the same. I mean, don't crush it @ infinity:1 or anything. Just put a little duck butter on it. You know what I'm sayin'? Just massage it on the tushy a little.

[Cujo]

I keep leaning toward a more "mono" approach for Piano as well, anned liek the plaer is one one side of the room or the other, but then I hear
modern records totaly panned low end on the left, high on the right.. Wilco's Summerteeth comes to mind. I mean Booker T's organ is some of the greatest shit ever, but would he have spread it out if he could have?

Originally Posted by Benjy King

It makes sense because sound only comes out one end of the rotating horn. If you have mics on either side of the cabinet the sound is going to arrive....well, you get it. X/Y in front would certainly approximate more like what we hear standing in front of the Leslie. And where is the "stereo" that keeps being mentioned. The beauty of all of this is...it all sounds good! One of the best sounding Hammonds that comes to mind, in a rock record, is on Dark Side Of The Moon. One mic 7 feet away, no compression.

[Cujo]

Do you find condensers pick up too much machine noise?

Originally Posted by dobby12

I've been doing a pair of condensers (Gefell m930's) in XY on the front of the Leslie with a RE-20 on the bass. Someone told me that in conversations with an organ tech, they figured that it's not a good idea to put mics on each side of the Leslie. Apparently, it increases the apparent speed of the Leslie... it doesn't sound bad at all because I used to do it, and it does sound spacious, but I guess by having the horn rotating with the two mics in different spots, it makes the Leslie sound like it's going faster or something... maybe it's complete bullshit, but it DOES kind of make sense in a "I don't know shit about physics" sort of way. XY's been working great for me lately, it's got plenty of depth, and no phase issues.

[AlanTide]

thanks for the good info. I have decided to take more than enough mics so I can try a few configurations and then........................drum roll please.....................................I am just gonna use my ears to listen to what reproduces the sound like I hear it in the room. I know, I know, with all of this technology, just plug in a vst or something instead! GGGGGGGGGGG
I'll let you all know how it turns out.

[Matt Grondin]

Originally Posted by Cujo

Do you find condensers pick up too much machine noise?

No, not even close... my B3 is in the same room as my Leslie too, and even with the clickly fast/slow footswitch and keys noise from swells, etc., it's never a problem. I just put the Leslie on the other side of the room and face the cardioid mics away from organ. As far as noise coming from the Leslie itself, such as the rotor, etc... nope, no problems either. But I'm not recording solo organ either... it's rock organ in the context of a mix. It always sounds good though... m930's in XY, RE20 down low, Great River MP-2NV, Purple MC77 on light compression, boom, amazingly sweet organ tone that sits right in the mix. BUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTTT, ribbons are also amazing for organ... Coles 4038 and Royer 121's come to mind.

[absrec]

Originally Posted by Cujo

Do you find condensers pick up too much machine noise?

That's the best part!

[John Jennings]

Originally Posted by dobby12

BUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTTT, ribbons are also amazing for organ... Coles 4038 and Royer 121's come to mind.

Pictures of Billy Preston's Leslie from the Ray Charles, Nora Jones "Here We Go Again" session - http://royerlabs.com/rc_nora_jones.html. Scroll about halfway down the page for the Leslie shots.

John Jennings
Royer Labs

[ARude]

M/S [usually a VP88] or a coincident XY for the top rotor and any flat low end mic for the bottom rotor. For the low end a 421, an RE20, 441, etc. I left out the 112 ‘cause it ain’t flat. I don’t usually recommend using condensers in a live setting as they are too sensitive and pick up to much of everything else. In live situations work close unless it’s ambiance. If you had some condenser pencil mics use a pair in coincident XY in front of the top rotor without louvers. Taking the additional trouble with the Leslie is always worth it in the final mix.

I love pushing a guitar through a Leslie front ended with a Fender blackface Deluxe. AWESOME sound.

[lowswing]

Originally Posted by Jamstudio

how about a ms setup

Remco

yes, that's the way i use to:pair of gefell um92.1 in MS for top, 421 bottom thumbsup