Schoeps MK4, how much better than Rode NT5?

[TonyF]

Gosh. This still seems to be a holy burial ground, so I shall go quiet again after this post. Paying a higher or lower end-user price for something is no guarantee of quality, sadly. Nor is repeating perceived wisdom acquired from all sorts of others' anecdotes any more reliable. Many people have axes to grind.

Wise men in Australia and the UK took us to war in Iraq based on perceived wisdom, anecdote and expensive bought-in evidence about WMD. The media confirmed it had to be true just to sign it off; we even had photographs from satellites to prove it. Look how reliable they all were and where that got everyone. It was all b.s. as we know now. In audio the dangers from getting it wrong are insignificant in comparison, but still we must apply our own discretion as well as listen carefully and selectively to what we are told or simply expect for no particularly good reason.

It is foolish to perpetuate the myth that no decent recording may be achieved without buying microphones which cost as much as a decent used car, plugged into systems which cost as much as a new car. We have no business confusing those starting out, especially. Some of the best and most communicative recordings I hear are consistently those entered in amateur and student recording competitions - with no need for any apology. Some of the worst are on commercial CD or on the radio made using tens of thousands of pounds' worth of microphones and gear.

I am in the music business first and audio business second, and in the trade of being a balance engineer they are inextricably interconnected like a horse & cart. If a microphone perverts the sound quality of a piano or string section it is the musical perversion one hears first, then one can try to pin it down with technical explanations to avoid it next time. Professional recording engineers who believe that the music does not come first priority are confusing their job with something else and will stare at an empty diary for a long time. Our job is to present a musical performance as faithfully as we can to those who will appreciate it (and hopefully pay for it, so we engineers can pay our rent) through electronic media and transducers like speakers and headphones. Are you really telling me that if I use an Australian microphone it will automatically do a worse job than a German one and that I must simply be a very silly person? Are you really telling me that an expensive microphone will always do a better job than a less expensive one? Tell that to all the tv people over here using NTG3 shotguns out of choice to plug into their very expensive broadcast cameras.

Of course there are cheap microphones where performance is compromised to meet a budget. However, we are not debating EBay shlok here. What we are discussing is a bad habit of making assumptions based on limited or no evidence.

Over & out.

[panatrope]

Worthwhile re-stating my former tag-line?

De gustibus - et sonus - non disputandum est.

[Teddy Ray]

I'd really prefer it if the posters who are nowhere near the level of Mr. Faulkner or Plush would learn to listen instead of trying to outdo them. Get the credentials and experience and *then* pound your chest. Not before.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

There are a few good reasons why there is a Schoeps in front of Gheorghiu here, rather than a Rode.
YouTube - Frost over the World - Angela Gheorghiu

Care to elaborate? I say that until you've reached the level of experience that Mr. Faulkner has...well, it probably isn't the best idea to argue with him.
Ok..now...before any of you (not referring specifically to you, David)argue with Mr. Faulkner, look at his credits. Ok. Now look at your own. Do it one more time. Doesn't it make some of you feel just a bit less inflated/ a little less anxious to argue?? Maybe it was how I was raised or something, but I wouldn't dare shoot off my mouth at someone so respected/acclaimed...

and I **CERTAINLY** wouldn't have the gall to sit there and say "well, there are good reasons XXX mic(my microphone preference) are chosen over XXX microphones(Mr. Faulkner's choice) for XXX person because id feel ridiculous and ashamed later, that I was so silly as to second guess an engineer of his calibre!! Put away those egos guys, Tony Faulkner is a master. Same with Plush. hell, some of you ought to be grateful that guys with their level of experience, ability and hearing acuity are willing to enlighten the rest of us, and I for one hope and pray that Mr. Tony hasn't been run off by the inflammatory and arrogant comments from individuals lower on the recording hierarchy totem pole... Seriously guys, sheesh.


allmusic ((( Tony Faulkner > Credits )))
allmusic ((( Tony Faulkner > Credits )))
allmusic ((( Tony Faulkner > Credits )))
allmusic ((( Tony Faulkner > Credits )))
allmusic ((( Tony Faulkner > Credits )))
allmusic ((( Tony Faulkner > Credits )))


allmusic ((( Anthony B. Faulkner > Credits ))) (over 18 pages follow this one!!!!)

[loaf]

in Tony F's picture, are they NT6's with omni's?

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by loaf

in Tony F's picture, are they NT6's with omni's?

Looks like NT6 cardis inside with omnis outside. When you zoom in, side ports on the capsules tell the story.

[Audiop]

As I have said many times, price is not a performance parameter and I want to thank Tony F for the latest couple of posts.

One other low priced mic that people should to listen to blind is Line Audio CM3 which basically is on the level of the best out there. The polar pattern is similar to Schoeps MK21 and I'll try to do a comparison some day.

I've written about them in the past and to me they are on the level of QTC1 and MKH8000. The nice thing is you get ten CM3 for one Sennheiser or Earthworks.


/Peter

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

A very strange quote, Tony. A quality transducer is what it is and we choose them so that, in the case of music mics, the recorded sound is as close as possible to the live sound. There are cheap mics, cheap cameras, cheap thermometers, cheap accelerometers, cheap ... If they didn't do a worse job of transduction than the expensive examples, the expensive examples would not sell and go out of business.

I agree David, a quality transducer is a quality transducer.. and they can be found low priced as well as high priced. ;-)

As for the last part of your post.. I'm certain that expensive brands always will be around even without a performance benefit. It's just the way many humans are wired.


/Peter

[rumleymusic]

Gosh. This still seems to be a holy burial ground, so I shall go quiet again after this post.

Please don't do that. Most of us give your views more weight than any other poster, and want to hear what you have to say.

[boojum]

Tony Faulkner is, no doubt, one of the very best RE's around. The operative being "one of." When all the great RE's of the world agree with Tony and Tony agrees with all of the great RE's on this subject we can assume that he is right. Up until that time I suggest that he is voicing his very experienced professional opinion. No more; no less.

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by boojum

Tony Faulkner is, no doubt, one of the very best RE's around. The operative being "one of." When all the great RE's of the world agree with Tony and Tony agrees with all of the great RE's on this subject we can assume that he is right. Up until that time I suggest that he is voicing his very experienced professional opinion. No more; no less.

What he said...
Even if I'm not anywhere near as experienced, I would still trust my own ears more than just go by opinions, regardless of how much higher "on the recording hierarchy totem pole" someone may be. And that is no sign of disrespect for their opinion, IMHO. In other words, I probably won't be buying any Rodes anytime soon. But I also wouldn't trade my Beyer MC803 cardioids for MK4s...
Which is actually in accordance with Tony's POV on quality and price (except that it's Beyer not Rode...).

Originally Posted by TonyF

Some of the worst (recordings) are on commercial CD or on the radio made using tens of thousands of pounds' worth of microphones and gear.

No doubt. That said, there is no doubt that "tens of thousands of pounds' worth of microphones and gear" could also mean lots of potential for great recordings, if used the right way.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by boojum

Tony Faulkner is, no doubt, one of the very best RE's around. The operative being "one of." When all the great RE's of the world agree with Tony and Tony agrees with all of the great RE's on this subject we can assume that he is right. Up until that time I suggest that he is voicing his very experienced professional opinion. No more; no less.

and no one said anything different... but some folks need to consider just who it is that they are addressing and act accordingly. It seems as though some people forget that from time to time, or have never learned it to begin with. I believe that he and others at the top of the food chain deserve the utmost respect. Again, maybe thats just me, how I was raised, but I believe in respecting your elders. I've always been taught that , when it comes to a skilled trade, there is a unwritten "rank structure". The guys with the most experience(credits) lead. Their input carries more weight than others by virtue of their experience and position. I don't put everyone on equal footing. Maybe I am old fashioned.

I believe in saying Sir or Maam, too..Id feel like an ass addressing Mr. Faulkner or Plush or Bruce Swedien by their first names, talking to them like "one of the bros".. but that's neither here nor there..

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

Again, maybe thats just me, how I was raised, but I believe in respecting your elders. I've always been taught that , when it comes to a skilled trade, there is a unwritten "rank structure". The guys with the most experience(credits) lead. Their input carries more weight than others by virtue of their experience and position.

No doubt - but one doesn't necessarily have to be all the way up the food chain (in terms of experience and commercial success) to be allowed a personal opinion or preference in terms of mic choice, don't you think? You may not be referring to me here, but I'd like to say that while I don't record great musicians on a daily basis, I still have over 15 years of fairly regular experience now and I trust my ears (or I know what I like). And I'm sure there are others here with a similar (or greater) level of experience, even though they may not have the chance to record international CD releases very often (my second such recording was just released... ).

I believe in saying Sir or Maam, too..Id feel like an ass addressing Mr. Faulkner or Plush or Bruce Swedien by their first names, talking to them like "one of the bros".. but that's neither here nor there..

Good point - but then again, it is common on internet fora to address each other by the first name. In german, where there are two ways to say "you" (as you know well, since you've lived here), the more formal variety may actually be seen as a way to show disrespect or even an aversion to someone. If everyone on a german-speaking forum starts calling you "Mr. so-and-so", it's not necessarily a sign of great admiration.

Therefore, since Tony Faulkner signed up as "TonyF" here, I think he's ok with being addressed by his first name on the forum. Just my 2c.


Daniel

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by d_fu

No doubt - but one doesn't necessarily have to be all the way up the food chain (in terms of experience and commercial success) to be allowed a personal opinion or preference in terms of mic choice, don't you think? You may not be referring to me here, but I'd like to say that while I don't record great musicians on a daily basis, I still have over 15 years of fairly regular experience now and I trust my ears (or I know what I like). And I'm sure there are others here with a similar (or greater) level of experience, even though they may not have the chance to record international CD releases very often (my second such recording was just released... ).


Good point - but then again, it is common on internet fora to address each other by the first name. In german, where there are two ways to say "you" (as you know well, since you've lived here), the more formal variety may actually be seen as a way to show disrespect or even an aversion to someone. If everyone on a german-speaking forum starts calling you "Mr. so-and-so", it's not necessarily a sign of great admiration.

Therefore, since Tony Faulkner signed up as "TonyF" here, I think he's ok with being addressed by his first name on the forum. Just my 2c.


Daniel

Hey Daniel, very good posting, and I hope you know that I was not referring to you at all with my post, just a general sort of comment. (Actually, I was referring to David Spearitt and the guy who said Mr. Faulkner's ears were shot)Agreed re the German differences, I guess my point was more for the American guys who probably (or shouldve!! ) been raised to say Sir or Maam. (obviously I am talking to the younger guys) I was always taught that once you get 40 you no longer have to say Sir or Maam, but should until then. anyway, I guess im off topic. Apologies.

[rumleymusic]

No doubt - but one doesn't necessarily have to be all the way up the food chain (in terms of experience and commercial success) to be allowed a personal opinion or preference in terms of mic choice, don't you think?

Of course not. Everyone deserves a say and has a right to an opinion. It is just the ability to support opinions and ideas with proven and recognizable results that gives one's opinions weight.

When all the great RE's of the world agree with Tony and Tony agrees with all of the great RE's on this subject we can assume that he is right.

Unfortunately we don't have the luxury here to ask all the very successful engineers their opinions on the matter. But we did have one that chimed in. Now he doesn't want to post anymore because he thinks were are all arrogant kids. It is pointless to share knowledge with those who don't want to listen.

[boojum]

This is getting pointless, and I surely cannot read Tony Faulkner's mind. I cannot even define the norms of ettiquette. I am grateful for Tony's posts. His opinion is well founded and valued. My point was only that it is not law. I wonder if he intended it to be taken that way.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Of course not. Everyone deserves a say and has a right to an opinion. It is just the ability to support opinions and ideas with proven and recognizable results that gives one's opinions weight.



Unfortunately we don't have the luxury here to ask all the very successful engineers their opinions on the matter. But we did have one that chimed in. Now he doesn't want to post anymore because he thinks were are all arrogant kids. It is pointless to share knowledge with those who don't want to listen.

thumbsup

[David Spearritt]

None of my post was disrespectful to Tony, I was attacking the message not the messenger, his statement, that I highlighted was suspect.

Nor is repeating perceived wisdom acquired from all sorts of others' anecdotes any more reliable.

What we are discussing is a bad habit of making assumptions based on limited or no evidence.

In fact, I thought this was somewhat disrespectful to me. I have been recording classical music for 20 years, and own Schoeps and Rodes and while I certainly don't have the publishings Tony does (yet), I am certainly not dispensing received opinion.

Respect can still exist while still questioning what people say, no matter who they are.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Audiop

As for the last part of your post.. I'm certain that expensive brands always will be around even without a performance benefit. It's just the way many humans are wired.
/Peter

Not sure this is true in this day and age. I buy cheaper things if they are as good as the expensive stuff. I think companies face a grim future if they rip the public off. Certainly the interwebs expose them pretty quickly.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

None of my post was disrespectful to Tony, I was attacking the message not the messenger, his statement, that I highlighted was suspect.


In fact, I thought this was somewhat disrespectful to me. I have been recording classical music for 20 years, and own Schoeps and Rodes and while I certainly don't have the publishings Tony does (yet), I am certainly not dispensing received opinion.

And respect can still exist while still questioning what people say, no matter who they are.

questioning is one thing. Doing so in a manner that is arrogant/dismissive is another entirely.


Actually, after he posted his comment about the RODE mics, you chimed in with "there is a REASON XXX mics are put in front of XXX singer".. Which I am certain Mr. Faulkner found offensive.... It was an arrogant statement, David. Mr. Faulkner has recorded the top singers in the world. I am certain that he knows how to choose microphones.


This bums me out. We had a world class engineer here who has stopped posting because of arrogant replies to his posts. That is a great loss for this forum.


anyway, over and out. nothing further to add.

[David Spearritt]

That was not an arrogant statement, Teddy, it was simply a statement of fact. The Schoeps was chosen for reliability, looks and sound for such a top class and expensive if failed, gig. This was my point.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

That was not an arrogant statement, Teddy, it was simply a statement of fact. The Schoeps was chosen for reliability, looks and sound for such a top class and expensive if failed, gig. This was my point.

Were you not implying that the RODEs are a lesser choice??? He uses them all the time, and surely knows how to select microphones!

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

Were you not implying that the RODEs are a lesser choice??? He uses them all the time, and surely knows how to select microphones!

I am not disputing that Tony finds Rodes acceptable. My main thesis is that choosing Schoeps is not snobbery. It is a preference for more quality in reliability, looks and sound.

When Rode make the NT55 or 45's in matt nextel, and they are made with high quality SMC, and appear in front of $100,000 artists, then they will have achieved the same venerable reputation as Schoeps and for good reasons, ie not snobbery.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

I am not disputing that Tony finds Rodes acceptable. My main thesis is that choosing Schoeps is not snobbery. It is a preference for more quality in reliability, looks and sound.

When Rode make the NT55 or 45's in matt nextel, and they are made with high quality SMC, and appear in front of $100,000 artists, then they will have achieved the same venerable reputation as Schoeps and for good reasons, ie not snobbery.

David, I take it you aren't familiar with who uses RODE mics. There are Loads of them, some of them who command a lot more money than your soprano there.


so one has to make a mic in Nextel? Is this a fashion show or record engineering? Jeesh. I wonder how people get by with those ugly old neumanns and assorted other aesthetic atrocities.

[TehGuitarist]

The rode's aren't bad mic's, but head over to a thread i started in the high end forum. Alot of those guys post over here too and it seems like the mk64 is a bit of an industry standard for remote recording as well as studio.

Sorry i can't give hands on experience but maybe that thread will help.

[studer58]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

David, I take it you aren't familiar with who uses RODE mics. There are Loads of them, some of them who command a lot more money than your soprano there.


so one has to make a mic in Nextel? Is this a fashion show or record engineering? Jeesh. I wonder how people get by with those ugly old neumanns and assorted other aesthetic atrocities.

For the record I use an MKH8020 matched pair alongside Rode NT5 [with 45 omni cap] (nb: as the need arises, not arbitrarily, or interchangeably) Neither loses any esteem in keeping company with the other, they are just 2 sets of socket wrenches in my toolbox. I wouldn't be without either pair...horses for courses. However when they share the same stage the silvery Rode's stand out visually compared with their (also smaller) nextel dark MKH companions. Which is why I'm going to source some 25mm diam black or grey heatshrink and 'melt' it permanently onto my NT5 with a distantly held hair dryer. I'm sure that will make the 2 pairs sound even more alike....at least it'll LOOK that way

[Pohaku]

Interesting thread and pretty fast company here. I was one of the participants in Mike Jasper's Big Ass Shootout. http://www.charteroakacoustics.com/p...DCshootout.pdf

It was damn hard. There were easy mics to eliminate. Then it became inestimably more difficult. In the end I must say that the results were both surprising and humbling. While I don't have the credits or the mic cabinets that some posters on this thread do, I do have a fair variety of decent SD mics from some of the usual suspects: Neumann, Beyer, AT, Josephson. And I thought I had a pretty good idea of their sound. Notwithstanding that, I did not pick out the KM84i in the test (and I own and love that mic). In fact, I did not pick out any mic that I owned. I did pick out a Schoeps CMC64. But I also picked out a CAD GXL1200 (which is like a $50 mic). I'd also note that while many very fine mics made my list and the list for all participants, the Rode NT5 and the AT4021 also made the all participants list. No, I did not pick out the Rode.

In general, my experience running this gauntlet would tend to support Mr. Faulkner's thesis. Now one can certainly use other objective criteria for selecting a mic, including - reliability, non-reflective paint, marketing cachet, etc. Nothing wrong with that. But if we are just going by our ears . . . .

[didier.brest]

I was also a member of the listening panel for this test and I did pick out the NT5 and the AT4021 among my selection of 15 mics. But there were in my selection mics from DPA, Neumann, Sanken and Schoeps that I preferred with respect to the NT5.

[mar-kus]

Perhaps another thing to keep in mind...
About 40 people work at Schoeps and most of the work they do is handcrafted. For example you can see there a few women sitting around the table who fit the capsules together with really tiny screws. If you ever have the chance to visit this company to watch the extrem highly professional workflow (and the big part of handcrafting) you'll never ask again why the mics are more expensive than others.
It's like to buy a knife build by factory or a handcrafted one.
You can buy one for 2,00 € and you can buy one for 2000,00 €.
Both have their rights to exist. And everyone can choose to support those small family-based companys or the big ones.
In my opinion we live in a wonderland today. We can choose of hundreds of different mics and each one has it's perfect fit at the right time, at the right place in the right hands...
By the way...the Schoeps microphones are not expensive they represent a fair value for what they can do for you. The problem is more that other companies trade their mics too cheap. And this is only possible because they have more employees, or a bigger factory where the don't produce 100 mics a day they produce 10000 mics a day.
I only can speak for Germany because I don't know the situation in other countries. But I'm very happy that there are a few small companies here which have survived til today. In the future we all will miss such small islands in the audio world.

Regards

Markus

[Corran]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

so one has to make a mic in Nextel? Is this a fashion show or record engineering? Jeesh.

I'm not sure if this was said in jest, but Teddy you've got to admit, with video productions becoming commonplace and with certain audience expectations, a nearly invisible mic (or at least not silvery-reflective) is an important thing to have.

The video producer of the orchestra I recorded last weekend about had a hernia when he saw my silver U89's hanging in the middle of his wide shot. He said nothing about the Schoeps outriggers.