Signal Splitting question

[ebulb]

I am interested in the prospect of creating adaptor leads which i could plug into the inserts of a console and create a split of the output signal.. But also allow the insert to operate as normal for the FOH sound..

So the plan would be to use a male TRS to plug into the insert point.. Then wire it to an identical TRS female plug to mirror its primary functionality but also wire the output signal to a mono female plug so i could then use that mono connection to run as an output to a recorder while the insert itself could still be used for gates compressors etc..

The reason i am considering something like this is because there are some situations where i cant use proper splitters from the stage due to conditions at that particular gig, but the direct outs on the desk are post EQ and insert, so i face a choice of either trying to wing it through direct out sends post everything (which is horrible) or just say no i cant do it.. In the past ive said no but id like to find a solution to it if i can.. The inserts thing could allow me to take a more direct signal than the direct out as inserts are often pre EQ (i think) and with that adaptor id get pre insert signal as well..

So would anyone have any thoughts on whether i could make an adaptor lead like that and if it would work or is there anything which it might cause a problem with ? If it works i would make 8-10 of them and then just use them on any channels where the live sound guy needed his insert as well.. All other channels i could take the insert out and directly return the out to the input to prevent breaking the ciruit.

[OzGizmo]

Gee your playing with fire with that one!!.. yes a plug / lead could be made to suit your needs, [at the desk end join the tip and ring connections together then connect the output cable to (ring/ tip) and shield for the output]
BUT this unbalanced cable is now in your audio circuit when they touch the other end plug by plugging in or out it will cause spats or hum on your signal as well as drop your level of that channel.
VERY RISKY !!!!!

A better way is build up a transformer splitting box and put it in just before your desk, put it in on the setup and then your ready for any splits needed.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I did the cable split for a couple of years on my Soundcraft 200/Tascam DA-88. Seemed to work well. I agree about the transformers if you are working with other people's equipment or sending the signals long distances.

[ebulb]

I know its unconventional and not my first choice but im just trying to be resourceful and make the best of it when the options are limited.. its the sort of thing id only use in a few scenarios where i couldnt get a decent send any other way.. I'll still use splitters on stage as my first option and happy to take a direct out when the desk provides pre insert/eq.. Its just those other times id like to try and find a solution.

My plan was to make individual adaptor leads and use them for each channel rather than a rack.. I just thought a small lead about 10cm long with all the plugs on it would be modular and easy to manage behind the desk.

Is there anyway i could wire isolators into a short lead ? ive got a soldering iron and do basic work but ive never wired isolating transformers before and dont even know what they look like.. I'll do a search..

Would you have any recommendations on what is a cheap and decent isolating transformer to use ?

[OzGizmo]

Decent and cheap seem to be apposing words, what your after is a 600ohm : 600 ohm transformer that will handle +15dbm [insert and direct outs are line level]
These would be approx 40mm x 40mm x 40mm and quite weighty, they would probably be better put into boxes with XLR in and outs, that way you could use them for other jobs as well.
You should be able to find them in electronic component stores but need to have +15dbm or more max level.

[radeng]

Hardwired splitter cables will usually work, but you are living dangerously.

Originally Posted by ebulb

cheap and decent isolating transformer to use ?

When it comes to audio transformers, there is no such thing. Good ones are the most expensive component in any piece of pro audio gear. Check out the Jensen Transformer website for application notes, you will probably find one for this use.

[ebulb]

I guess i meant whats the "most" decent within the cheaper options.. If there are cheaper options to choose from when it comes to this type of thing... As you can probably tell the instance in which i will need these is nothing on a professional scale, It just needs to work and sound ok for the odd time id need it, i dont need the best by a long shot.

Im curious whenever i have attached or removed an insert lead while doing live sound i have never heard loss of signal in the source or any glitches in the live sound.. I have often done it midway through songs and never had problems.. Would that change on the recording if i was splitting the insert signal and the FOH guy decided to repatch something ? A major loss of level or glitches like when someone plugs in their guitar (while the amp is turned up) wouldnt be accpetible obviously but im just wondering is that what i would get ?

I know the situation is not ideal but when i cant use splitters on stage at some gigs and the direct outs are post everything on the desk, well im just trying to find the best solution.. If anyone has another suggestion id welcome it.. I have previously just said i cant do those shows but i dont like doing that i like to be able to overcome as much as i can.

[JEGG]

ebulb-
Just so you know, there are commercially manufactured cables for what you need-they're often called "Direct Out Cables."

'Agree with others that transformers are generally a safer and much more predictable way to go.

[philper]

It seems like there might be an ok technical solution to this issue, but there is still a political one. If the FOH mixer is using the inserts for outboard gear, you are asking them to disrupt their normal signal flow to put in some cable adapters unknown to them--directly in their signal path, on an unbalanced feed. I think most of the FOH mixers I've worked with would prefer a transformer split of the mics in front of the console to what has been proposed, if there are no direct outs from the FOH board available.

phil p

[mixedupsteve]

To make a direct out cable from the insert you would normally jump the R to the T on the desk end. I see a potential for problems if you do that on a cable where you still plan on using one end as a live insert. I'm afraid that the output of the inserted device would leak back into the input and create a feedback loop into the device. So I would use an insert type jack on the female end instead of a regular TRS and not jump the male end.
Edcor has a 600:600 transformer that will take 10 volts which should be plenty. In my opinion if your going to go through the trouble of putting a transformer in there why not just make a small splitter box and split before the desk.

EDCOR Electronics Corporation. WSM600/600

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by philper

It seems like there might be an ok technical solution to this issue, but there is still a political one. If the FOH mixer is using the inserts for outboard gear, you are asking them to disrupt their normal signal flow to put in some cable adapters unknown to them--directly in their signal path, on an unbalanced feed. I think most of the FOH mixers I've worked with would prefer a transformer split of the mics in front of the console to what has been proposed, if there are no direct outs from the FOH board available.
phil p

As i said in my posts if i can use proper splits i do, if the direct out is pre EQ/insert i take that. its the other scenarios that im trying to find a solution for and i always speak with the engineer beforehand.. Also the leads im suggesting to make (if it works) is something that would not disrupt signal flow at all so it would not affect anyone doing FOH.

If of course the person is looking for an excuse to complain just because there is a connection on the desk they may not be familiar with while everything is still working fine, well im never going to win with that person so it doesnt matter.. But ive done prob 200 live recordings now and there have been times when what im suggesting could have worked fine and given me better signal than a crappy direct out that i actually took.

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

In my opinion if your going to go through the trouble of putting a transformer in there why not just make a small splitter box and split before the desk.

EDCOR Electronics Corporation. WSM600/600

Do you mean split the signal at the FOH instead of the stage ? I have actually done that once or twice when their is easy access around the desk, but some of the venues that are permanent installs are difficult to get access to the desks XLR inputs because there are structures setup around them..

You can always get to the inserts and the direct outs if they are above the XLRs but often trying to unplug XLRs from the desk can be hard because they are lower and when you do unplug them they dont have any extension on the lead.. So for that to work i would have to add an extention lead before the splitters and then back out to the desk.. When ive got 24 channels needing extensions and then patching back into the desk itself, if its a tight space its just too hard.. Its not something i dont consider at all but in some circumstances its not fesable.. The direct out option is quick and easy and i just thought if i could mimic that simplicity of patching but using the inserts to gain better signal, without disrupting any normal proceedings it could be a good option.

if i just did a straight stereo Y split on the inserts and then used one of thes plugs off one side..

Hosa DOC106 Direct Out Insert Cable at zZounds

are you saying that would bleed back somehow and cause a feedback loop ?

[philper]

Originally Posted by ebulb

As i said in my posts if i can use proper splits i do, if the direct out is pre EQ/insert i take that. its the other scenarios that im trying to find a solution for and i always speak with the engineer beforehand.. Also the device im suggesting to make (if it works) is something that would not disrupt signal flow at all so it would not affect anyone doing FOH.

If of course the person is looking for an excuse to complain just because there is a connection on the desk they may not be familiar with while everything is still working fine, well im never going to win with that person so it doesnt matter.. But ive done prob 200 live recordings now and there have been times when what im suggesting could have worked fine and given me better signal than a crappy direct out that i actually took.



Do you mean split the signal at the FOH instead of the stage ? I have actually done that once or twice when their is easy access around the desk, but some of the venues that are permanent installs are difficult to get access to the desks XLR inputs because there are structures setup around them..

You can always get to the inserts and the direct outs if they are above the XLRs but often trying to unplug XLRs from the desk can be hard because they are lower and when you do unplug them they dont have any extension on the lead.. So for that to work i would have to add an extention lead before the splitters and then back out to the desk.. When ive got 24 channels needing extensions and then patching back into the desk itself, if its a tight space its just too hard.. Its not something i dont consider at all but in some circumstances its not fesable.. The direct out option is quick and easy and i just thought if i could mimic that simplicity of patching but using the inserts to gain better signal, without disrupting any normal proceedings it could be a good option.

if i just did a straight stereo Y split on the inserts and then used one of thes plugs off one side..

Hosa DOC106 Direct Out Insert Cable at zZounds

are you saying that would bleed back somehow and cause a feedback loop ?

Tell me why you would want to mess with this if the direct outs were avail? Are you trying to deal with a situation where there are no DOs? It seems to me that the insert signal has all the same problems of a direct out (post the FOH gain trim) and adds being unbalanced to boot. I do think you will run into trouble with a straight Y of the ring and the sleeve if the FOH people have an outboard device using that feed and return--maybe a transformer on your side will help--it's worth a test. Are you talking about just doing this split with a handful of channels or with 20+ etc? I hope you find a way to make this work and look forward to hearing your solution--I understand the problems you talk about re connector locations on installed consoles etc very well....deal with them too....

phil p

[ebulb]

I am happy to use direct out sends when they are pre EQ/insert/fader.

The reason im trying to find a way of using the insert is because most of the time direct outs are post EQ and insert and sometimes they are post fader as well.. So under those scenarios it can become a nightmare if there are gates on the insert, if the drummer plays a little quiter in spots you loose the drums altogether..
Also post EQ is bad as most engineers sweep frequencies and make changes mid set, thats fair enough its part of their job but i dont want it on my recordings.. The worst of course is post fader where mutes and everything get recorded.. I pretty much dont bother with those scenarios anymore and most of the time i can use splitters, but occasionally i cant so id just like to find a way of still being able to record at those places without being subjected to nasty send from a direct out..

The insert output is pre EQ and fader and if i took the send and not the return it would be pre insert as well.. so it would only be at the mercy of channel gain which i can live with if i have to. I would only need to use the "split" for the insert channels with something patched into them, but i would still use the other inserts for my sends with a standard direct out cable.

[mixedupsteve]

Ebulb, I see what you mean if the mixer connectors are like that. I've seen it where you could get to the mic ins and not the rest but never like that.

I'm pretty sure that hosa is just a cable to connect the recorder to the insert and nothing else like you want. Those have the tip on the mixer end connected to the tip on the female end and the shield connected to the shield on both ends.
What I was proposing was a switched TRS jack on your Y cable to receive the insert device, A switched jack has a normally closed switch inside between the tip and ring connectors that opens when a TRS male is inserted. Your Y to the recorder would be connected to the tip of the jack on that end and the tip of a male TS on the recorder end. Shield to shield on both ends. You would have to find a big enough female switched jack to let you run two wires in there. You could Y off the mixer end instead if that helps.

[philper]

Originally Posted by ebulb

I am happy to use direct out sends when they are pre EQ/insert/fader.

The reason im trying to find a way of using the insert is because most of the time direct outs are post EQ and insert and sometimes they are post fader as well.. So under those scenarios it can become a nightmare if there are gates on the insert, if the drummer plays a little quiter in spots you loose the drums altogether..
Also post EQ is bad as most engineers sweep frequencies and make changes mid set, thats fair enough its part of their job but i dont want it on my recordings.. The worst of course is post fader where mutes and everything get recorded.. I pretty much dont bother with those scenarios anymore and most of the time i can use splitters, but occasionally i cant so id just like to find a way of still being able to record at those places without being subjected to nasty send from a direct out..

The insert output is pre EQ and fader and if i took the send and not the return it would be pre insert as well.. so it would only be at the mercy of channel gain which i can live with if i have to. I would only need to use the "split" for the insert channels with something patched into them, but i would still use the other inserts for my sends with a standard direct out cable.

Well, I will grant you that the direct outs of PA consoles are a mixed bag re whether they are post EQ and fader etc--I haven't actually run into a post-fade direct out in the last 10 years, but post EQ is somewhat common for some reason. Why not do a proof of concept test with one of the Ys you propose and see if it causes trouble w/ the FOH outboard device? (And if adding a trafo fixes the problem if there is one.) Of course, the trend nowadays seems to be away from consoles w/ either inserts OR direct outs--all in the box like Yamaha and Soundcraft digital, in which case the outputs avail are somewhat patchable (but there aren't enough for a big show...)

phil p

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

Ebulb, I see what you mean if the mixer connectors are like that. I've seen it where you could get to the mic ins and not the rest but never like that.

I'm pretty sure that hosa is just a cable to connect the recorder to the insert and nothing else like you want. Those have the tip on the mixer end connected to the tip on the female end and the shield connected to the shield on both ends.
What I was proposing was a switched TRS jack on your Y cable to receive the insert device, A switched jack has a normally closed switch inside between the tip and ring connectors that opens when a TRS male is inserted. Your Y to the recorder would be connected to the tip of the jack on that end and the tip of a male TS on the recorder end. Shield to shield on both ends. You would have to find a big enough female switched jack to let you run two wires in there. You could Y off the mixer end instead if that helps.

Thanks Steve.. i didnt realise you could get the switched TRS jacks, i'll look into that.. Im just going to have to get in and solder some things and see what results i get, ive already found another person on another thread who seems to have done this and its worked ok, so thats promising.

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by philper

Well, I will grant you that the direct outs of PA consoles are a mixed bag re whether they are post EQ and fader etc--I haven't actually run into a post-fade direct out in the last 10 years, but post EQ is somewhat common for some reason. Why not do a proof of concept test with one of the Ys you propose and see if it causes trouble w/ the FOH outboard device? (And if adding a trafo fixes the problem if there is one.) Of course, the trend nowadays seems to be away from consoles w/ either inserts OR direct outs--all in the box like Yamaha and Soundcraft digital, in which case the outputs avail are somewhat patchable (but there aren't enough for a big show...)

phil p

the big problem with direct outs is post insert especially when the engineer is using gates and has set them badly. If the drummer starts playing softer you can loose drums for entire sections of songs because the gates arent opening.. its fine at the gig cause in soft sections the stage volume covers it, but its no good when you are recording. Also the post EQ thing is common and id rather avoid that as well if i can..

[MicDaddy]

Hi ebulb,

were you able to confirm if this worked for you or not?

I am in a similar situation somewhat. My analog board that I use for live gigs has TRS insert points but no individual sends except for aux channels.

What I'm considering is a male TRS that would go into the insert point, on the other end would be a Y cable terminated to a pair of TRS female.

A splitter like this Hosa Technology 1/4" Male to Two 1/4" Female YPP-118 (I too considered turning on the iron and hacking some cables together but my time is too valuable and that cable is cheap)

What we end up with is a parallel input TRS female.

Use one TRS female as your typical compressor/eq insert, and on the other TRS female use this guy http://www.zzounds.com/item--HOSDOC10 for your send to your recording medium.

Not 100% sure if it will work but I'm confident enough to give it a shot, and I believe it is what you are trying to accomplish. If it works it will allow me to be much more versatile.

I'm wanting to record live gigs with my analog board, and while I can use the insert for a direct out, I have wondered if there's a way to also be ably to use dynamic processing on channel inserts in parallel..... time will tell, I'll keep you posted.

[OzGizmo]

Originally Posted by MicDaddy

What I'm considering is a male TRS that would go into the insert point, on the other end would be a Y cable terminated to a pair of TRS female.

A splitter like this Hosa Technology 1/4" Male to Two 1/4" Female YPP-118 (I too considered turning on the iron and hacking some cables together but my time is too valuable and that cable is cheap)

What we end up with is a parallel input TRS female.

Use one TRS female as your typical compressor/eq insert, and on the other TRS female use this guy Hosa DOC106 Direct Out Insert Cable at zZounds for your send to your recording medium.

Not 100% sure if it will work but I'm confident enough to give it a shot, and I believe it is what you are trying to accomplish. If it works it will allow me to be much more versatile.

If you use the insert shorting cable it stops the insert from working as intended, it makes it a direct out by connecting to 'Output' to 'Input' and taking a sniff of that to become a 'Direct Out'.
If you wanted to use the insert point as BOTH an insert AND a direct out you will need to work out is the 'direct out' to be 'pre-insert' OR 'post-insert'.
Either way I think the soldering iron needs to be warmed up.

[MicDaddy]

OzGizmo,

Thanks for your input I haven't thought this through thoroughly.

We want to take a sniff without disrupting the send/return.

I want only the gain/low cut and no processing so tying both together on the send side would make it pre insert. Bring the processor back in on the sleeve into the channel strip.

The direct out cable needs to be open between tip/ring so that we don't short the ins/outs on our processor.

What potential issues does leaving the return floating on one side?

[OzGizmo]

Originally Posted by MicDaddy

Thanks for your input I haven't thought this through thoroughly.

We want to take a sniff without disrupting the send/return.

I want only the gain/low cut and no processing so tying both together on the send side would make it pre insert. Bring the processor back in on the sleeve into the channel strip.

The direct out cable needs to be open between tip/ring so that we don't short the ins/outs on our processor.

What potential issues does leaving the return floating on one side?

OK, the circuit gets broken as soon as you put the jack into the desk with the internal switching on the socket.
The 'direct out' and 'pre-insert' will be an unbalanced feed when connected from the tip and sleeve.... but then you need to get the signal back into the next stage of the desk, this is why the tip and ring are shorted (normally) but you could continue to form an insert point BUT that socket will need a shorting switching in it to loop it back into the desk.

The direct O/P's I would wire to XLRm connectors rather than jacks or sockets because of plug in/out problems. And be mindful that there WILL be signal level drops with the splits.

It is possible BUT with some trickery..... and an intimate knowledge of what your doing and whats happening with the inserts. Without that you could end up with a lot of trouble.

[MicDaddy]

The signal is closed through the dynamics processor be it compressor eq etc...


TRS male inserted, signal broken, send/tip return/ring sleeve/common.

On one side of the Y adapter, we have Tip hit the input of say a compressor, then leave the compressor and come back in on ring, common is shared between the two.

This closes our signal out and back into the console. With the other side of the Y adapter, I just want to 'sniff' off of the common/tip for the direct out.

This should give me processed signal via channel strip insert send/return/sleeve, as well as a pre insert direct out via tip/sleeve leaving the return on that side floating.

I don't know, maybe there are potential issues with parallel loading the send side (lowZ send), or maybe with leaving the unbalanced return floating on TRS female jack (direct out side)

[MicDaddy]

I suppose, imagine the 'insert point' as a fixed piece of hardware within the console's channel strip. Instead of an insert point, I have an 1176 post gain pre eq.

Now I am just tapping/sniffing a direct out pre 1176 with no return.

If that makes any better sense

[OzGizmo]

You seem to get the idea, but be mindful that every time you put a join / connector you add a place for a problem to occur.... and every connector will effect each other either in the mixer O/P and or the insert device and or the direct O/P. Just remember that you are now working with unbalanced signals and possible hum problems.
Use as many XLR connections as possible as TRS connections are notoriously prone to failure and problems.

And that's why people use transformer splitting boxes with XLR In's and Out's and earth-lifts ......for reliability and isolation between feeds.
If there was a reliable cheap way of doing splits of signals the Pro's would have been using that method for years.....

[MicDaddy]

You make a good point.

Ideally I would just split this signal and take the transformer isolated side to the board for FOH and the other side to the recording medium.

This leads to buying a splitter, cables, rack etc...

If I was wanting external dynamic processing to be used on 10+ channel inserts I would probably go that route.

I'm only needing handful of inserts where I still want the ability to throw on a compressor or eq. Sometimes I just want a compressor on the lead vox, or maybe some on the bass guitar. With outboard/recording/console all at FOH location, short cable runs (less than a few feet).

What is yet to be known, will the unbalanced send be upset seeing the input of two devices? Secondly, will leaving an unbalanced return floating, and is it even considered floating since the return is terminated on the output of the dynamic hardware???

[Jim vanBergen]

Just be careful.

If anyone tried this on a desk where I was mixing, I'd send them packing.

This is why transformers exist.

You CAN do it, but you're in for a world of worry, and there are so many really good, inexpensive transformers these days, I can't see why you'd do it.

When in the past I had to go down & dirty without a real splitter, I used an XLR Y with a good transformer on my side. I also own rack mounted 8ch and a 19ch isolation transformered splits for live recording, and it's JUST SO MUCH EASIER! I guess I was taught by the guys who used to tape a second mic to the live sound guy's for the recordings.


Good luck!

[jude]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Just be careful.

If anyone tried this on a desk where I was mixing, I'd send them packing.

I would (and have done) the same!

[MicDaddy]

Originally Posted by jude

I would (and have done) the same!

no doubt, I'd do the same.

As it's me working FOH and facilitating the remote recording, I don't foresee myself telling myself to take the bus

out of curiosity what is a 'good transformer' for a signal split?

[radeng]

Originally Posted by MicDaddy

out of curiosity what is a 'good transformer' for a signal split?

JENSEN TRANSFORMERS, INC. - MICROPHONE SPLITTER TRANSFORMERS

There are others, but these work well for mic level.

[jitterybit]

Split before FOH. Just repatch the mics on stage....
No grounding issues, no pissed off FOH guy.
The only thing I've ever asked for was a LR/12 feed(DI'd) and enough time in soundcheck to actually set levels. Sometimes I'll ask to put up a room mic @ FOH so nobody F's with it.
If you are trying to figure out something stationary, then it could be achieved in a mult of all sends into a patchbay. i.e., one row insert sends multed to another row right below, then half normal those into the returns. Good luck.

I use a couple of these:
MST-412
and then setup a few of my own mics. Just remember that the direct line must send phantom.