Mid-priced cardioid SDC main pair (again!)

[claying]

I have a pair of Rode NT5 but find it too bright as a main pair. I prefer to use them as spots or with the omni capsules. After a series of recordings using DPA 4060 as A-B main, I find the need of a new pair of cardioids to get more focus in some badly sounding halls.

As a recording hobbyist, I DO NOT have the budget for DPA 4011, Schoeps CMC6/MK4, Sennheiser MKH8040, etc. My budget will be limited to under $2000 per pair, and preferrably interchangeable capsules for later expansion. I record orchestras, chamber ensembles and choirs, mostly in dry halls.

After some general searches, here are some of the options:
1. AKG ULS C480B + CK61: said to be near DPA
2. MBHO MBP648 + KA200N: said to be near Schoeps
3. Shure KSM141: quite a lot of good comments here and it's cheaper!
4. ? the coming DPA 2011C - heard that it's at $800 range; the freq response curve has not been out on web site yet...
5. Neumann KM184: too bright like the Rode! So not my preference!
6. Audio-technica AT4051b: newly added as suggested below!

I read this mid-priced SDC cardiod pair for Classical and this Best mid-priced stereo pair? but they do not answer my question.

I do not find any audio samples from AKG ULS and MBHO as reference. Could some experts here help? I know some of you own these mics.

[tnjazz]

At the risk of sounding like a gear pimp, I would suggest perhaps the Milab VM44. They come standard with cardioid capsules, have omni capsules available separately, and in the near future will be offering a hypercardioid capsule as well. They are very clear and natural sounding.

The classic version is typical body/capsule, while the Link version is remote capsule, cable and body (designed to be used detached).

[richgilb]

I bought a matched pair of the Elation KM201 for similar purposes and had similar reasons for upgrading - I wanted smoother. They cost me less than $2000 new, shipped with omni, cardioid and hypercardioid caps.

Also if you are considering MBHO (as I did), consider the Audix SCX-1, as they use exactly the same MBHO capsules. The SCX-1 go pretty cheap second hand. I got one for $120 recently and a matched pair of cardioids for $500. Cheap alternative or a stepping stone perhaps.

[JEGG]

Hello claying-
There is really no answer to questions such as yours, and here is why:

In my short glance at your list above, all the mic's are fine mic's. We could all add a ton (well, at least 1/2 a dozen) more mic's to your list. They would all be great mic's.

But the usefulness of any mic, no matter the purchase price, really comes down to the *specifics* of your source, your room, your technique, and your taste.

There can be extraordinarily small differences in a tiny portion of the mic's response that can be deal breakers or deal makers.

You will have to do a bit of self analysis and then either arrange to use the mic's, or get files that have been made in excruciatingly specified circumstances to make much of a judgment. And the latter option is still a crap shoot.

[claying]

Right, there isn't an answer. But I am interested to know more about how you guys think about these mics.

Some of the shootout files here are quite useful, which I do hear the difference between mics, and is definitely better than "blindly buy the mic and test myself then sell it if not satisfied." But I don't see any samples from AKG / MBHO that I mentioned above at this forum. Or experts here all use high end mics as mains and so don't care how these cheaper mics sound?

Originally Posted by JEGG

Hello claying-
There is really no answer to questions such as yours, and here is why:

In my short glance at your list above, all the mic's are fine mic's. We could all add a ton (well, at least 1/2 a dozen) more mic's to your list. They would all be great mic's.

But the usefulness of any mic, no matter the purchase price, really comes down to the *specifics* of your source, your room, your technique, and your taste.

There can be extraordinarily small differences in a tiny portion of the mic's response that can be deal breakers or deal makers.

You will have to do a bit of self analysis and then either arrange to use the mic's, or get files that have been made in excruciatingly specified circumstances to make much of a judgment. And the latter option is still a crap shoot.

[jnorman]

IMO, the AT4051s are the best of the mid priced SDCs. you can usually find a good used pair for $5-600. i have posted comparative sample clips of the AT4051s against the beyer MC930s and KM184s. the akg C461s ($6-700 pr used) and C481s ($900 par used) are also excellent.

[amfortas2006]

Originally Posted by jnorman

IMO, the AT4051s are the best of the mid priced SDCs. you can usually find a good used pair for $5-600. i have posted comparative sample clips of the AT4051s against the beyer MC930s and KM184s. the akg C461s ($6-700 pr used) and C481s ($900 par used) are also excellent.

+1 for the AT4051

I would also wait a bit to see how these new 2000-series from DPA turn out to be.

[claying]

Originally Posted by amfortas2006

+1 for the AT4051

I would also wait a bit to see how these new 2000-series from DPA turn out to be.

Just listened to jnorman's clips and I agree that the AT4051 are the best among the 4 tested. thumbsup

The DPA 2000 series is most attractive in the sense that it uses the same preamp module as the higher 4000 models, so I may upgrade eventually at a lower cost.

[richgilb]

Anyone know the nationality of Audio Technica?

[amfortas2006]

Originally Posted by richgilb

Anyone know the nationality of Audio Technica?

Japan

[claying]

Originally Posted by richgilb

Anyone know the nationality of Audio Technica?

Japan.

[666666]

Originally Posted by amfortas2006

+1 for the AT4051

+2 for the AT4051

And the AT4053 hypercardiod capsules are even better. Pick up a pair of AT4051 mics and extra AT4053 capsules and you'll be totally set. There are AT4049 omni capsules for these mics too but I don't have enough experience with them to comment accurately. But overall this is a VERY affordable kit that in some cases rivals the best SDCs out there.

I also own some DPAs and Schoeps and the AT stuff still gets used. I actually have four AT4051 / AT4053 mics, get used often.

Those AT4053 caps really shine, often prefer them to MK41s, they're a bit more open sounding while the pattern is still fairly tight, very high resolution, very nice top end etc... might be one of the best mics / capsules that AT offers, and one of the best hypercardioid SDC caps available at any price... in my opinion. Of course YMMV, but... they certainly never disappoint me, and I say that being a DPA and Schoeps user.

You can get a PAIR of used AT4051 mics/caps for around $700-ish probably... you certainly can't get anything better for that kind of money in my opinion. And no, I'm not selling mine right now, sorry. Check Ebay and GS, they pop up used now and then.

Or, if your budget is indeed $2k, you can get a pair of AT4051b mics brand new and still have extra cash left over. I just checked, seems they're going for about $499 each brand new... gee, within your budget, you could actually get a pair of AT4051b mics and also a pair of AT4053b mics, then you'd have four mic bodies and two sets of capsules all for under $2k.

Or, also within your budget, you could get one pair of AT4051b mics, and then a pair of AT4053b hyper capsules and also a pair of AT4049b omni capsules... so then you'd have one pair of bodies and three different sets of capsules. That's what I'd do... in fact, that's what I DID. I actually have four bodies and a pair of all the caps (except TWO pairs of the 4053s because they're so damn good). But I have the "a" versions because that's what was available when I bought mine, now you'd be buying the "b" versions, not sure of the differences but I'd imagine they're not too different.

And as others have stated, the Beyerdynamic MC930s are supposed to be really good for the price too.... these pretty much compete directly with the AT4051s in terms of price. But I think the capsules are fixed on the MC930s (someone correct me if I'm wrong) so this would make them less versatile than the ATs.

[fafalio]

looking at the audix SCX-1 it seems fantastic. it is very very consistent in all 360 around.
but graphs are graph...it has to be verified in the field...

[mathieujm]

Here is a sample with MBHO cardio.
But since that I got a pair of Beyer MC930. They are cheaper and for me really a step above the MBHO, mostly in the far field.
You can find some recordings with the MC930 there
Beyer MC930 for classical distant miking

[Hornblower64]

The Beyerdynamic MC-930's are very nice. If you can swing it, the MKH8040's can be found for $2099/pr. They are among the best, and less expensive than the DPA and Schoeps offerings. I got my MKH8020's for that amount from Recording Services and Supply. Ask, if another price is listed.

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

Here is a sample with MBHO cardio.
But since that I got a pair of Beyer MC930. They are cheaper and for me really a step above the MBHO, mostly in the far field.
You can find some recordings with the MC930 there
Beyer MC930 for classical distant miking

The self noise of the 910 worried me.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by richgilb

Anyone know the nationality of Audio Technica?

Japan.


/Peter

[9sbean]

Save your money and go for the best later.

[king2070lplaya]

Line Audio CM3's

they are subcard so they sound better spaced a little wider in pairs, but isolation hasn't been a problem for me with them yet. I know it's not a pure cardioid but for the insanely low price they aught to be considered.

Website:
index

They have a very neutral frequency respone, I've used them with great success as main pairs, piano mics, and soloist spot mics.

I would put them up against any of the mics listed above, save the schoeps and dpa. They are just wonderful. I can send you some clips if you'd like?
Good luck in your search!

[Winter]

Originally Posted by 666666

But I have the "a" versions because that's what was available when I bought mine, now you'd be buying the "b" versions, not sure of the differences but I'd imagine they're not too different.

Hi,
I was looking at the AT4053 for myself, but i've found that frequency response graph has changed quite a lot in the "b" version.
The "b" version looks very similar (well, on the graph) to the Beyer MC950, while the "a" seems (once more, on the graph) a little more open sounding.
It's a shame that the actual "b" version seems so different; and i have to say i don't like the sound, too dark to be natural, well for my taste at least.
As a SDC cardioid pair, i really like the Beyers MC930, very nice sounding mics. I've listened to many samples recorded by friends, i think they really worth the price!
Personally I own a pair of Line Audio CM3, but they're different polar pattern (subcardioid). Simply astonishing and not only for the price, fantastic stereo pair if acoustic is not an issue.

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by Winter

Personally I own a pair of Line Audio CM3, but they're different polar pattern (subcardioid). Simply astonishing and not only for the price, fantastic stereo pair if acoustic is not an issue.

One potential problem I see with these CM3 is their low sensitivity (6mv/PA). THis is not a problem for overheads, but could be for classical instruments if not enough clean gain in the preamps.

JMM

[claying]

Originally Posted by 9sbean

Save your money and go for the best later.

This is, no doubt, one of the options.
Maybe just go for AKG C391B for now (I'm quite satisfied with the versatality of the blue line omni/hypercard/fig8s) and save up for the best laaaater!

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by claying

This is, no doubt, one of the options.
Maybe just go for AKG C391B for now (I'm quite satisfied with the versatality of the blue line omni/hypercard/fig8s) and save up for the best laaaater!

That's quite a bit of cash for a pair of interim mics, particularly when you start adding caps.

I have self-noise obsession, but I also discarded these because the noise is at 17db. And I bet they are really good mics.

[666666]

Originally Posted by Winter

re: AT4053b: i have to say i don't like the sound, too dark to be natural, well for my taste at least...

So you've used the AT4053b capsules? Too dark?.... interesting. Never heard `em myself. I certainly would not consider my AT4053a capsules too dark, they might be a tiny-tad bright if anything... though I consider them "just right" in general for my uses.

I wonder why AT would make such a radical change from the "a" version to the "b" version. I'd really love to hear a shootout of the AT "a" stuff verses the "b" stuff.... and to make it even more interesting, compare these to the "original" versions (before the "a" and "b").

Makes one wonder WHAT exactly microphone engineers actually shoot for when designing a given mic. Of course one main factor I'm sure is keeping the manufacturing / parts cost down. But other than that, I'd imagine they have a certain degree of flexibility in terms of the overall frequency response curve they can build-in to the mic. I wonder if there's several guys in a room, duking it out, saying, "make it a little brighter!... No, make it a little darker!... hey, you better add a little upper-mid presence rise... no way, it'll sound too brittle then..." etc.

The design of a mic (character, behavior, overall sonic specs) is very important in my opinion, because guys like us are either going to love or hate a mic based on it's properties.

There's one newer mic offered by one of the biggest mic manufacturers around, it's an updated version of a classic mic (not going to get into specifics because my intention is not to bash any companies here... it's NOT Neumann by the way)... the old classic version sounded great, the new updated version is GOD AWFUL... it's WAY too bright, off the charts, ear piercing, just sounds terrible... I bought a pair brand new (took a chance that they'd be somewhat related to the classic design) and wound up selling them at a big loss not too long after, they sucked bad... now, in my opinion, whoever made the decision to design those mics that way made a BIG mistake, I don't think I'd touch anything made by that company with a ten foot pole now. So why the hell did they do that? OR was it just incompetence?

Anyway...

[Winter]

Originally Posted by 666666

So you've used the AT4053b capsules? Too dark?.... interesting. Never heard `em myself. I certainly would not consider my AT4053a capsules too dark, they might be a tiny-tad bright if anything... though I consider them "just right" in general for my uses.

Hi,
I had very high expectations on the AT4053, based on what i've read about the "a" version, but when i've tried the "b" i was very disappointed by the sound.
The graphs also confirm my perception (both available on the Audio Technica web page) of a darker sound with less articulation in mid-higs.
Don't know why a brand will change the sound of a very succesful mic the way they do, it's a mistery and i cannot understand it. I really dislike the brands who made many versions of the same mic and only one version is the nice one. I really like clear and simple catalogues....

[binarymilton]

I'd say AKGC451B without a second's hesitation.

If you've used the Rodes then you'll find the AKGs do something very similar, only with no harshness, they have a really gentle roll-off. Hard to describe their sound - there's definitely a colour they impart to things - but it's a very nice colour.

[claying]

Originally Posted by binarymilton

I'd say AKGC451B without a second's hesitation.

If you've used the Rodes then you'll find the AKGs do something very similar, only with no harshness, they have a really gentle roll-off. Hard to describe their sound - there's definitely a colour they impart to things - but it's a very nice colour.

This is the reason why I do not choose C451B.
I need something different from the NT5, because it is too bright and hard-sounding.

[Karloff70]

Beesneez LuLu Fet's perhaps? They have a great offer on through march for half price....I'm eagerly awaiting my pair....

EDIT: so again I didn't read properly.....for classical stuff maybe you could consider second hand Gefell M295's.......I got a pair of M294's (top boost version/M295 is flatter) for £600 for a pair once....you never know.....

[9sbean]

Originally Posted by claying

This is the reason why I do not choose C451B.
I need something different from the NT5, because it too bright and hard-sounding.

Don't comprise, you've already got mid price stuff. Go for the best, otherwise you'll always wonder what is wrong with the mic.

[binarymilton]

Originally Posted by claying

This is the reason why I do not choose C451B.
I need something different from the NT5, because it is too bright and hard-sounding.

OK, well it's like the Rode in being bright. But it's unlike the Rode in that it's not harsh sounding.

If you don't want bright, well, I wouldn't necessarily be looking at SDCs. I'm not sure I'd be using SDCs to track grouped orchestral instruments.