Crimp vs Solder XLR: Experiences wanted

[JEGG]

I'd like to hear the experiences of long terms users of both crimped and soldered XLR connections.

1. I'm interested in *XLR* connections of *audio line level/mic level* cable and snakes.

2. I'm interested in experience over years-and not a technical debate on the issues. (Though I have included a little tech piece at the end of this post.)

I do audio recording, and all my cables-those made by myself or manufactured by a firm-are soldered.

For two or three years in the now distant past, I did sound reinforcement with rented cables and snakes. During that time, manufacturers seemed to start using more (unannounced) crimped XLR connections on cable and snake assemblies. At the time, and over the short term, there did not seem to be reliability differences. And doing mostly outdoor sound reinforcement, I was not in a position to notice subjective differences.

For those experienced with both:
1. What are reliability comparisons-primarily related to remote use with *uninstalled portable cable* and assemblies?

2. Do you have subjective comments about signal quality?

I include this bit of writing fully credited and fully lifted from the site: audioholics dot com. It's better than I could write, and it is provided as a reminder about some physical issues often overlooked in the method of crimping.

"While most people assume a "crimp" is just a contact crushed onto a wire, giving electrical conductivity by means of pressure, real crimping involves "elastic" and "plastic" deformation and flow of metals resulting in "micro cold welds" due to "contact asperity welding" of the metal surfaces. During the deformation process the wire and connector are mechanically cleaned, usually making pre-cleaning of wire and terminal unnecessary. When done right, this crimped connection can be much stronger and longer lasting than a soldered connection, and have electrical resistance of the equivalent length of wire. A properly done crimp is also gas-tight as well, not allowing oxidation to degrade it over time."

Once again, though I've included this bit of writing-I am interested in keeping this thread experience oriented rather than debate oriented.

Thanks for sharing your experience!

[boojum]

I use the Neutrik crimped XLR connectors. It is not a screw type connection but rather one forced by the construction of the connector itself. I use then with Canare star quad. I have been using them for about three or four years. I have not had a failure. I am told this is not true. My experience, so far, indicates otherwise. When they fail I will let you know. Until then I will continue to use them.

Folks who have had crimp-type failures have not indicated they were Neutrik connectors. I think Neutrik are the better ones.


Cheers

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by boojum

I use the Neutrik crimped XLR connectors. It is not a screw type connection but rather one forced by the construction of the connector itself. I use then with Canare star quad. I have been using them for about three or four years. I have not had a failure. I am told this is not true. My experience, so far, indicates otherwise. When they fail I will let you know. Until then I will continue to use them.

Folks who have had crimp-type failures have not indicated they were Neutrik connectors. I think Neutrik are the better ones.


Cheers

Thanks boojum.

You have raised an obvious issue that I completely missed.

If you're using crimped XLR's, let us know from which manufacturer.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by JEGG

Thanks boojum.

You have raised an obvious issue that I completely missed.

If you're using crimped XLR's, let us know from which manufacturer.

Neutrik!

[MichaelPatrick]

I've never used a crimped connector and never would if I have any choice about it.

I use only lead-based solder.

[radeng]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

I've never used a crimped connector and never would if I have any choice about it.

I use only lead-based solder.

At mic level, I would prefer soldered. Good quality crimped is fine for line though. Good crimping usually requires an expensive tool. In a PA snake, crimped mic level is OK, but for critical recording I want the non-PC lead-based soldered XLR's too.

[chris319]

A sock in the nose goes to the first guy who says that in a blind listening test, one or the other sounded "creamier" and "more etched".

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by chris319

A sock in the nose goes to the first guy who says that in a blind listening test, one or the other sounded "creamier" and "more etched".

No, but the soldered cables sound more solid and the crimped ones sound a little loose or rattly as they age, especially if they've been handled roughly.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

No, but the soldered cables sound more solid and the crimped ones sound a little loose or rattly as they age, especially if they've been handled roughly.

ROTFLMAO! Well put, MP!

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Soldering is the way to go!

We got a lot of ProCo cables that were crimped. They started going bad the first time we used them. We were able to take them back and get soldered cable at a much higher price. They are worth every penny we paid for them.

Soldering is the way to go!

[mpdonahue]

There are actually two different types of the XLR is question. The first is a crimp and snap style connector and the other is an IDC (Insulation displacement Connector).
I'm not adverse to a good crimped connection, however the IDC for mic level signals, in my mind, is a real no-no. I've seen plenty of those ProCo snakes with the IDC connectors and normally cut off the connector and replace with a soldered Neutrik NC3FX/NC3MX connector. An hour well spent. I've seen more than a dozen channels of those ProCo snakes go bad.

All the best,
-mark

[mixedupsteve]

Solder here because I love the smell of solder in the morning.

[WVUtubadude]

I solder. The only reason I use lead free is because the majority of my soldering is for brass instrument repairs.

Also, I only solder for cable repairs, and even then it is just a quick tack to get things working again. I'm still not adventurous enough for building cables.

Also, also, I have had experiences with crimped snakes from rental companies, and several channels were bad.

[JEGG]

Some very good information, here.

No one has yet said:

"I dropped or banged by soldered XLR on concrete/marble/hard floor and the soldered connection broke."

This is something I was trained to fear.

I've got cables that are old, worn, and have been banged around a lot, but I've still not had a single soldered XLR fail. (Mostly but not all Neutrik.)

Another question:

If you've had soldered XLRs fail (I haven't), what do you think was the cause? Shock, bad soldering job, etc.?

[JEGG]

Thomas and Mark-your experience is the same as a hire/rental firm I used in the past. They rented ProCo and other snakes and cables, and when ProCo made that unannounced switch and just started sending crimped snakes and so on, they were having lots of failures right away.

At the time, they made an unannounced switch on single mic cables as well. One could spot them because the Neutrik connectors had hard plastic strain reliefs rather than the more pliable rubbery sort of thing.

Mark-thanks for the additional information on the types of connectors.

For those using lead based solder, can lead solder still be purchased anywhere? I still have solder purchased before the change.

For the non lead folks, any particular temperature/wattage you recommend for XLR types of things, and any specific solder formulas? Do/did you find it more difficult to work with than lead based solder?

Tubadude, I am in awe of your soldering skills!

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by JEGG

Some very good information, here.

No one has yet said:

"I dropped or banged by soldered XLR on concrete/marble/hard floor and the soldered connection broke."

This is something I was trained to fear.

I've got cables that are old, worn, and have been banged around a lot, but I've still not had a single soldered XLR fail. (Mostly but not all Neutrik.)

Another question:

If you've had soldered XLRs fail (I haven't), what do you think was the cause? Shock, bad soldering job, etc.?

I am not sure the chemistry but solder actually binds to both the cup and the wires in the cable so it would be unlikely that it would break from any fall. What usually happens is that the person soldering was in a rush and got what is called a cold solder joint and it is NOT a good connection. This can lead to RF problems and noise from the cables.

As to finding solder that is lead based. Most towns have older electronics stores and you can usually find some rolls of solder sitting around. I know when I see a roll I buy it. I don't like some of the newer silver soldering solders as it is harder to work with but I guess I am just old fashion.

Best of luck!

[fifthcircle]

Sounds like a solder joint that would fail by dropping would be a cold solder joint. That usually occurs when the joint moves or has another problem while it cools. The solder crystalizes instead of sets. The joint will have a flat look to it instead of shiny.

I too have had major problems with those POS Pro Co snakes. If I see one of those come across a stage where I have rented my PA, that company will not be used again. Plain and simple, I will not use crimped XLR. It isn't that hard to solder and doesn't take that much time.

Now, for larger connectors, I don't have the same issues with crimp connections. The D25 cables that I make use crimp pins that will never come off. The way the crimp works on those is extremely robust. I have also had some other connectors that are crimped.

In the end, with any cable, the strain relief is what will make or break you. I've seen mic cables break, but not at the solder joint (never seen solder break). Usually the reason why a wire in the cable will break is repeated stress without a strain relief. It usually breaks right before the solder connection if it is going to. Sucks when it happens, but it means you need to check your strain relief and spend some time fixing it.

--Ben

[MicDaddy]

If you've had soldered XLRs fail (I haven't), what do you think was the cause? Shock, bad soldering job, etc.?

Most of the time it is because one of the conductors is severed. One way I've improved on cables is by making the shield just a tad shorter than your conductor wires.

This way when (and it will happen at some time) someone yanks on one, the shield has much better chance withstanding a break than a smaller, weaker conductor.

Have tried this on thousands of applications from mic cables to aviation headsets.

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by MicDaddy

Most of the time it is because one of the conductors is severed. One way I've improved on cables is by making the shield just a tad shorter than your conductor wires.

This way when (and it will happen at some time) someone yanks on one, the shield has much better chance withstanding a break than a smaller, weaker conductor.

Have tried this on thousands of applications from mic cables to aviation headsets.

I do this as well. I've never had a failure either (knock on wood)

[boojum]

I think there are various types and levels of quality and surety among solderless connectors. The Neutrik forces the wires into a tight, narrow sliver of a space which is then jammed shut by the plastic cover when the connector is re-assembled. In addition, the locking plastic cap also has a ridged finger which jams the cable itself tightly inside of the connector. Pulling the cable forces the ridged finger even more against the cable. This takes care of strain relief. The strain is effectively transferred to this locking mechanism and off the wire connectors.

Until you have opened up and examined how Neutrik accomplishes their solderless connections it may be premature to dismiss it as ineffective and unsafe. I will include a diagram of picture of the inside of the connector as soon as I can find one so that you can all see how it works.

FWIW - the companies who make more connections of wire to post than anyone and who stake their reputation on them, the telcos, use solderless connections.

My own faith stems from using them in the field. They have not yet failed. I use them better than 90% of the time. I understand that a sample with only one observation is not statistically reliable. But it is my experience.

[tenor39]

Ben is right. The major issue with connector failure is the strain relief. The chuck style of the Neutrik is far superior to the older Switchcraft XLR's with their screw clamps.

Yes, the next failure point is a cold solder joint. I've seen this more and more in the Chinese knock-offs of the Neutriks. The inferior metals used in the pins readily oxidize and the rosin flux in most electronic solders will not clean them well enough to alow the solder to adhere to the pin. Stay away!

Another issue with soldered connectors is the gold plating in the better connectors. Yep, the very thing that prevents the pin from oxidizing can cause joint failure in the soldering process. When I worked for a NASA/Military cable and harness company, we had to first fill the cup with solder and then suck it out before soldering the wire into it. The gold plating will leach into the molten solder and create joint problems if this is not done, along with the need for adhesion to the base metal of the cup. This is how ALL connectors and cable assemblies are done for the military and NASA.

Crimp connections can be fine for audio connectors IF the right tool is used and the clamping force is adequate to create a cold weld. I've done such assemblies for the above mentioned company, but the tools were $$$$ and the procedure was then inspected under a microscope to determine its effectiveness. Companies like ProCo and the Chinese use them because they are cheap and much less labor intensive. Finally, never use an IDC! They might work for automotive wire splicing, but I'd never trust one for any audio I was passing through it.

[chris319]

Aw, cripes! I got a ProCo snake last year unaware of the crimp/solder issue. Now I want to go in and solder the crimp connections but I can't get the blasted Neutrik connectors to unscrew for love nor money. Anyone know how? Might as well remake a snake from scratch with star quad and Switchcraft connectors.

As observed, one hazard is that the assembler does a careless job of crimping (or soldering, for that matter).

fuuck to you, ProCo and Neutrik.

[rumleymusic]

Another issue with soldered connectors is the gold plating in the better connectors. Yep, the very thing that prevents the pin from oxidizing can cause joint failure in the soldering process.

Yeah, I stay away from gold connectors. It is not as good a conductor either.

All my cables are soldered and like many here, I do the work myself.

I have had a few cold solder joints when I was first learning, but with a little practice and a good solder sucker, you'll never go back to buying another pre-made cable.

I can't get the blasted Neutrik connectors to unscrew for love nor money. Anyone know how?

It should just unscrew, did you try pliers?

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by chris319

Aw, cripes! I got a ProCo snake last year unaware of the crimp/solder issue. Now I want to go in and solder the crimp connections but I can't get the blasted Neutrik connectors to unscrew for love nor money. Anyone know how? Might as well remake a snake from scratch with star quad and Switchcraft connectors.

As observed, one hazard is that the assembler does a careless job of crimping (or soldering, for that matter).

fuuck to you, ProCo and Neutrik.

Some times if the connectors are done by a company like ProCo they sometimes put a drop of Krazy Glue on the cap so someone does not take the cap off. I unusually have to use some pump pliers to get it off.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by chris319

Aw, cripes! I got a ProCo snake last year unaware of the crimp/solder issue.

Hey Chris-

I've been gone from renting ProCo snakes for many years, so I don't know what they're doing now.

So-I'm curious, when you bought the stuff, was there any labeling that specified soldered for crimped? And did notice if they were selling both soldered and crimped versions?

Same question about individual mic cables...........

My experience probably dates from 15 years ago, so I'm interested in what they're up to now.

Oh, and do you know for sure if what you ended up with is really crimped?

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by tenor39

Another issue with soldered connectors is the gold plating in the better connectors. Yep, the very thing that prevents the pin from oxidizing can cause joint failure in the soldering process. When I worked for a NASA/Military cable and harness company, we had to first fill the cup with solder and then suck it out before soldering the wire into it. The gold plating will leach into the molten solder and create joint problems if this is not done, along with the need for adhesion to the base metal of the cup. This is how ALL connectors and cable assemblies are done for the military and NASA.

This good to know. The few gold plated contact XLR's came with cables that were commercially manufactured.

I do hope that they knew what they were doing! The cable is of the "not cheap not expensive" sort that many commonly use-but was assembled by a third party (I think) rather than the cable manufacturer.

Any truth to the claim that a gold plated nickel connector placed against a non gold plated nickel might create unhappiness? (As in mating a gold plated XLR to a non gold plated connector.)

In going through cables recently, I was reminded that I used gold plated crimped connectors on both ends of my monitor cables. I was impressed by the cleanliness of gold to gold for such a long time. But that is straying from the subject a bit.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by boojum

Until you have opened up and examined how Neutrik accomplishes their solderless connections it may be premature to dismiss it as ineffective and unsafe. I will include a diagram of picture of the inside of the connector as soon as I can find one so that you can all see how it works.

I have discovered that a pair of manufactured cables I have permanently loaned to a friend have crimped Neutrik connectors, so I may disassemble one and have a look. They've had some hard use and are probably 15 years old. I guess they're his now but I'm going to look!

[boojum]

Originally Posted by JEGG

I have discovered that a pair of manufactured cables I have permanently loaned to a friend have crimped Neutrik connectors, so I may disassemble one and have a look. They've had some hard use and are probably 15 years old. I guess they're his now but I'm going to look!

If I were an sort of a decent guy I would open up one a photograph it. But I am not. Nevertheless I will do it tonight and post what it looks like for all to see. They are well engineered - Jeez, imagine well-engineered German gear! - and have worked just fine for me. I believe that solderless were used for in the field fixes in the past. While Neutrik is able to be used that way but it is also a real connection if my three or four years counts for anything. I made all my cables from Neutrik and Canare Star Quad. Tons cheaper than buying ready made. I bought 100 meter rolls.

There seem to be three things which will excite a firestorm on this forum: best microphone brand; best recorder; and best connector. At least as much fun as the Friday Night Fights with Teddy Atlas.

[Remoteness]

I'm with Mark on this one.

Insulation-piercing connectors (IMO) should be used in installation situations and never used in the field as a portable or mobile cable device.

That being said, I can see them being used as a quick (one time) emergency solution when you don't have any time to spare.

When properly manufactured, the connector can be a highly reliable connection, but I do not see a long lasting future when in the field.

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

There are actually two different types of the XLR is question. The first is a crimp and snap style connector and the other is an IDC (Insulation displacement Connector).
I'm not adverse to a good crimped connection, however the IDC for mic level signals, in my mind, is a real no-no. I've seen plenty of those ProCo snakes with the IDC connectors and normally cut off the connector and replace with a soldered Neutrik NC3FX/NC3MX connector. An hour well spent. I've seen more than a dozen channels of those ProCo snakes go bad.

All the best,
-mark

[chris319]

Originally Posted by JEGG

Hey Chris-
I've been gone from renting ProCo snakes for many years, so I don't know what they're doing now.

So-I'm curious, when you bought the stuff, was there any labeling that specified soldered for crimped? And did notice if they were selling both soldered and crimped versions?

Same question about individual mic cables...........

My experience probably dates from 15 years ago, so I'm interested in what they're up to now.

Oh, and do you know for sure if what you ended up with is really crimped?

I don't recall anything telling me one way or the other whether they were soldered or crimped. Had I known they were crimped I would not have bought them. I will have to open them up and look, but first I need to get them to unscrew with a pair of pliers, it looks like.

(MOMENTS LATER)

They unscrew if you grab the metal part with pliers. Good news #1 is that the connections are soldered. Good news #2 is that they are not gold contacts. The bad news is that the shells are not grounded. I like my shells grounded, so I have some work to do on these.