Working with union (and non-union) soundmen

[rumleymusic]

Important Note:
Daniel Rumley did not start this thread. This post and the next few responses were removed from the original thread (off topic) and place in its own thread to keep the original thread focused and on topic.
I also edited some of the posts to keep the continuity of the discussion.

Listen, do me a favor my fellow Remotesters, be nice and stay kind.
All crew members, union and non-union must be respected in my forum!

You can say what you want, but seriously consider the consequences if you become offensive.
I'm not fooling around about this folks!

Everywhere I record no other recordings are allowed. Ask for the same deal at your venues.

Edit:

I want no association with this discussion. My comments were blown way out of proportion and inaccurate (offensive) assumptions were made about me and my views on many issues. The original comment was a playful jab at the difficulties of working with other sound men on location. I work with stage and music unions every day and I prefer it in most circumstances.

Conversely, I make no apologies for my comment. I only remark on my personal experiences, and do not assume similarities with anyone else here, even if some think otherwise.

Thanks

[radeng]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

bad because you have to work with a union sound man.

I registered here because I could not let this pass. As a past member of IBEW and current member of NABET, I take offense at your blanket statement. Union membership does not make you incompetent or hard to work with. I very likely have professional audio skills to at least match yours, and maybe even some you don't. Remote recording is one of my favorite things to do, and have accumulated some good to excellent gear over the years. Some of the choices I have made has been due to the great folks on this forum and their experiences. I'd like to be able to hang here but I won't tolerate knee jerk union bashing. Why don't you take your thoughts about this subject to a more appropriate setting, like a forum talking about the current disaster about to befall Wisconsin public workers?

I own a H4n. It's a POS. The THD is stupid bad. Will my pro rig (condensers/Studer 961/HHB 850's), make a better recording? Duh. But as others have noted, the average "listener" (I'm using the term loosely) usually doesn't gave a rat's rear end about sound quality. I'm not going to be able to sell them my wonderful sounding recording. They just don't care. Of course they will take it if I give it to them free. The parents at my kid's middle school band recitals have tried to tape their junk to my stands too. Letting them do this sets a bad precedent, so I won't go there.

Rock on.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by radeng

I registered here because I could not let this pass. As a past member of IBEW and current member of NABET, I take offense at your blanket statement. Union membership does not make you incompetent or hard to work with. I very likely have professional audio skills to at least match yours, and maybe even some you don't. Remote recording is one of my favorite things to do, and have accumulated some good to excellent gear over the years. Some of the choices I have made has been due to the great folks on this forum and their experiences. I'd like to be able to hang here but I won't tolerate knee jerk union bashing. Why don't you take your thoughts about this subject to a more appropriate setting, like a forum talking about the current disaster about to befall Wisconsin public workers?

I own a H4n. It's a POS. The THD is stupid bad. Will my pro rig (condensers/Studer 961/HHB 850's), make a better recording? Duh. But as others have noted, the average "listener" (I'm using the term loosely) usually doesn't gave a rat's rear end about sound quality. I'm not going to be able to sell them my wonderful sounding recording. They just don't care. Of course they will take it if I give it to them free. The parents at my kid's middle school band recitals have tried to tape their junk to my stands too. Letting them do this sets a bad precedent, so I won't go there.

Rock on.

MOST UNION PEOPLE ARE GREAT!

However every once in a while you get some one to assist you that does not know an XLR from a hole in the ground. They normally do props and this night they had to have someone assist the audio engineer from the outside and this was the only union person available. Most times they learn quickly and do a GREAT job. Sometime they disappear during setup and don't reappear until the tear down is done.

A lot depends on the hall. Some union and non union people are, shall we say, hard to work with. Others are the best you could possible want for the job at hand and you wish you could use them every time on every gig.

If you are fair and square with them 99% of the time they will be fair and square with you.

MTCW

[radeng]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

MOST UNION PEOPLE ARE GREAT!

True dat!

Some union people are, shall we say, hard to work with. Others are the best you could possible want for the job at hand and you wish you could use them every time on every gig.

If you are fair an square with them 99% of the time they will be fair and square with you.

MTCW

The same can be said for any non-union workplace. There are bad apples in any group of workers, in any industry. It's talk like in the post that I objected to that makes it easier for people to bash unions, even though those very same folks may very well have had parents or grandparents that fought hard and bloody battles to get them the basic rights most all workers in this country enjoy now. I have worked both in union and non-union workplaces. Having the right to decent treatment and pay makes a big difference. These days I mostly freelance, but if I were to work full time for the same company every day I wouldn't even consider a non-union job. Why should I put up with the abuse my non-union colleagues complain about all the time? Life's too short to have a crappy workplace.

[Tommy-boy]

Originally Posted by radeng

...Why don't you take your thoughts about this subject to a more appropriate setting, like a forum talking about the current disaster about to befall Wisconsin public workers?

Don't forget the disaster about to befall everybody else in Wisconsin - having the state go bankrupt!

[radeng]

Originally Posted by Tommy-boy

Don't forget the disaster about to befall everybody else in Wisconsin - having the state go bankrupt!

The union has tried to meet the Governor half-way with wage and benefit concessions, but he won't make his corporate masters happy until the workers are once more fully under their boots. Have fun wearing your corporate uniform.

[hbphotoav]

Public sector unions (people paid by taxpayers) were made legal, not by law, but by presidential decree of John F. Kennedy in the early '60s. No greater a liberal icon than Franklin Delano Roosevelt warned strongly against allowing public sector unions, understanding that they could (and would) support those politicians who would increase their pay and benefits, paid for by taxation of the public. New York was the first state to authorize them; Wisconsin was the second. I'll let you do the homework about the number of conservative governors/governments vs liberal in those two states in the intervening years. I'll also let you do the homework regarding unfunded benefits accrued, and research the millions of dues dollars spent on political donations rather than being channeled into appropriate retirement and medical insurance prgrams.

The people of Wisconsin voted for political change. It obviously wasn't change the unions (or the Democrat minority hiding in Illinois) wanted. The governor is bound by law to a balanced budget. Perhaps, when this is over, we can become more of a nation of laws than of mandates and political decrees, and begin to live within our means.

[loranoyd]

Mr. Butler:

Why do you gloss over radeng's statement: "The union has tried to meet the Governor half-way with wage and benefit concessions?" The fight in Wisconsin obviously has nothing to do with budgets, deficits, spending, etc. and EVERYTHING to do with dismantling the public sector unions. Setting aside your own fairly transparent attempt to de-legitimize the public sector unions ("... not by law but by Presidential decree--you, of course fail to mention that individual states in the US passed real laws to grant these unions the right to exist), let me ask you:

1. Do we as a society honor our legally binding contracts, or do we cast them aside at the least suggestion of difficulty?

2. Do you REALLY believe that Unions funnel their members' money into "political donations" rather than to the union's benefit funds? If so, you have never been part of a real union.

3. If it's not OK for the Union to make political contributions, why is it OK for the CEOs of huge corporations to do the same?

4. Do you believe that people can change their mind? If so, then you must concede that the people of Wisconsin have changed their mind and do not want their public sector unions dismantled.

5. Lastly, Union members ARE the TAXPAYERS. 'nuff said.

Full disclosure: I am a proud member of Local 590 of AFSCME here in the City of Brotherly Love.

It's time to stop using unions as the whipping boy for all the country's economic ills.

I know this post is off topic. I expect it to be removed very soon, but I cannot let Mr. Butler's comments go unanswered.

Now back to our regularly scheduled GS rants!

Regards,

Lloyd

[rumleymusic]

Good grief.

[radeng]

Lloyd,

Thanks for making those points. Another:

These efforts to destroy the unions are being financed in large part by the billionaire Koch brothers. They are not doing this because they love the people of Wisconsin. It's all about making themselves and their fat cat buddies even richer.

For those of you who have never been in a union, wake up and smell the bread line!

[edva]

Originally Posted by radeng

Lloyd,

Thanks for making those points. Another:

These efforts to destroy the unions are being financed in large part by the billionaire Koch brothers. They are not doing this because they love the people of Wisconsin. It's all about making themselves and their fat cat buddies even richer.

For those of you who have never been in a union, wake up and smell the bread line!

Just as engineers and musicians become better with practice, so have the "super rich" in their continuing acquisition of ALL the world's wealth. If they are not regulated, harshly and soon, we won't even see the oft-promised "trickle". Sowing confusion and dissension among the "masses' (that's us folks) is part of their strategy, i.e. "blame the unions", "blame the poor", and that sort of thing, while they add to their multi-million, and billion, dollar off-shore bank accounts.

[rumleymusic]

Yes the whole world is a conspiracy. We should all be wearing foil helmets.

Is the Zoom recorder part of that?

[edva]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Yes the whole world is a conspiracy. We should all be wearing foil helmets.

Is the Zoom recorder part of that?

Not the whole world. Yet. Just the world of the super-rich. For example, have you ever seen how animals are treated on corporate-owned factory farms? I'm talking about living beings, with a brain, and emotions VERY similar to our own, being treated as nothing but objects of commerce. THAT'S what the powers that be would just as soon do to all of "us" as well, if they could get away with it. If they do it to one group, without any moral or ethical compunction, they would do it to the other, if they had the power to do so. Just a fact, that's all.

[radeng]

Don S. and edva,

Kinda sad (but predictable) that the guy who hates on unions here would think anyone who questions authority and speaks truth to power must be a tin-hatter.

[Richard Black]

Just as engineers and musicians become better with practice, so have the "super rich" in their continuing acquisition of ALL the world's wealth. If they are not regulated, harshly and soon, we won't even see the oft-promised "trickle". Sowing confusion and dissension among the "masses' (that's us folks) is part of their strategy

I'm deeply suspicious of conspiracy theories but I'm finding that particular one harder to refute, or even doubt, as the days go by.

[boojum]

I am not one to eschew political discussion. And I have passionate feelings on the subject of domestic (US) politics as well as international. But this is not the venue. I have seen other boards just explode over this. Please lets not have this wonderful board and forum disrupted by politics.

Thanks.

[RobAnderson]

In my short career, I have worked with union stage hands at Carnegie, Avery Fisher, Alice Tully, and Madison Square Garden, and I can tell you that I love nothing better than working with union stage hands - especially in the big halls. Flying mic's is never easier than when you have a crew of experienced stagehands on the job.

Before collective bargaining, workers had 6 or 7 day weeks of 12 hour days in deplorable conditions. If you like the idea of a five day work week of 8 hour days and a job with health benefits and some sort of pension, you can thank unions for that.

I belong to a public union as a member of CUNY's instructional staff. I have trouble when politicians, who have little trouble voting pay raises for themselves, or who generously spread the money around to their already wealthy cronies and contributers (TARP anyone?), tell me that I must take a pay cut or lose my benefits (or my job!!!) for "the greater good." As soon as they decide to share in my pain by forgoing some of their own (six-figure) salary, or give me health benefits and a pension as luxurious as theirs, I will happily consider.

I mean, maybe if the Governor of NY would be willing to forgo a few $4000/night hookers, then perhaps the state could afford to give me a better health plan...

Some criticize the earnings, benefits, and job security of union members. Is there room, even need, for reform? Sure. Are some union members "overpaid"? When you think of the type of money that some in the upper management of corporations get just in their "bonus" alone, suddenly even the most outlandish union overtime rates begin to look rational.

[/rant]

[radeng]

Originally Posted by boojum

I am not one to eschew political discussion. And I have passionate feelings on the subject of domestic (US) politics as well as international. But this is not the venue. I have seen other boards just explode overt this. Please lets not have this wonderful board and forum disrupted by politics. I believe there is an area set aside on GS for non-technical discussion, such as politics.

Thanks.

boojun,

First off, thank you for the excellent advice you hand out around these here parts on a regular basis. Your taste in mic placement and selection of the best tools for the job are rules to live by. Since you live close by, you may come to my studio and hit me upside the head with any mic in my collection except the 44BX since I don't think this was a capitol offense. I did not mean to disrupt this wonderful playground and don't want to piss off Steve. (more than I probably already have)

But what this dude said was uncool. If he had said something about a religious and/or ethic group, this would be playing out differently.

[audibell]

Originally Posted by edva

Just as engineers and musicians become better with practice, so have the "super rich" in their continuing acquisition of ALL the world's wealth. If they are not regulated, harshly and soon, we won't even see the oft-promised "trickle". Sowing confusion and dissension among the "masses' (that's us folks) is part of their strategy, i.e. "blame the unions", "blame the poor", and that sort of thing, while they add to their multi-million, and billion, dollar off-shore bank accounts.

Isn't there more than a whiff of envy and spite in such an appeal?

Here's another viewpoint: "However, during the same strike, Trumka encouraged members to "kick the [expletive] out of every last one of 'em."[11] Richard Trumka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You may have seen Richard Trumka, current president AFL-CIO, waxing eloquently on TV about the Wisconsin public unions.

I ask, who will administer, regulate harshly and determine, by force presumably, the "correct" quantity I am allowed to earn from the equipment I use and rent out, which customers are free to pay for or pass by? Because, like the RICO statute, regulating profit won't stop at just the "mafia".

And I ask the brothers, what are scabs but just other out-of-work desperadoes, favored neither with a corporate job nor a union card? must they starve, too?

We should be careful for what we wish to be done to others. Check out this blog for a sense of life in a well-regulated paradise of equals.

Generation Y

WalterT

[Kirk_]

Well being from Wisconsin originally and having a couple decades in location audio work I can see that this is the right thread for my first post.

Yes the agenda in Wisconsin is about removing power from the Dems and the populace. If you don't believe that I'm sorry because it will affect you, negatively, at some point down the road if it happens.

[radeng]

Originally Posted by Kirk_

Well being from Wisconsin originally and having a couple decades in location audio work I can see that this is the right thread for my first post.

Very good first post. You make beverage go out nose.

[joelpatterson]

I feel like it must be time for me to invent one of my classic, enigmatic phrases that doesn't really advance the discussion, but instead casts it in a confounding light-- suggesting meanings but in the end, obscure and abstract to the point of bewilderment:

"A Union of One."

[charles maynes]

I would recommend noting that Union stage hands / sound people who work in the live venues have very different arrangements than the post audio world.

Union protections are good for the business of the arts- it is why there are Musicians unions as well as the other crafts unions....



and as far as the UAW goes.... the labor didnt make the cars crappy- the designers did, who were following the design criteria created by the management.

[John Willett]

This tight Union thing seems to be very US centred.

It used to be like this in the UK 30 years ago until Maggie Thatcher changed things.

In the UK I am a member of BECTU, the broadcast union - mainly because of the benefits - I get a £5,000,000 Public Liability Insurance for about £25 a year, on top of the membership subs. the insurance alone would be more than that if I wasn't a member.

[mosrite]

Surely the title of this thread should be "working with another sound man."

As John has pointed out the union thing is completely lost on most folk on this forum and, more importantly, it seems to provoke strong emotional reactions in some members that are personal, perhaps biased, perhaps simplistic and not universally applicable.

[radeng]

Thanks to Steve for separating the parts of this discussion, I hope he didn't lose too much sack time having to deal with it. In retrospect, I should have just sent Steve a PM asking for the offending post to be removed, which I'm sure he would have done promptly. It did spark some interesting thoughts from forum members though, and the general level of it was far more civil than say the way the fur flies regarding the consistency of rear/side pattern lobes of people's favorite mics. The general public would look at that stuff and think we are all crazy over here. Well, maybe some of us are. But passionate people create some of the best audio gear and recordings.

Peace

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Having worked both sides of the street, let me point out that most touring acts crews prefer to land in a venue where the crews are consistent and experienced, than in a venue where the crews are not. It is my experience that this happens more often in a union facility. Your experience may vary. This applies to all the disciplines involved in stagecraft, not just recording audio.

When you arrive at a facility to do a gig you are in effect a guest in that facility. When you meet the local crews, be they union or non-union, they are home. That means that you are guests in their home.

When it comes to making proper arrangements to achieve my needs when traveling, I've found that communication is the best tool that I have. If that means letting the hotel know that we'll be arriving late in the evening, please hold our rooms; or letting the venue know that I'm carrying so that they have the staffing that I need on hand.

Whining about my inexperience, laziness, or lack of understanding about how the business works is not an option for me.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic;

Most union venues forbid any kind of recording not overseen by a union rep. Good for keeping parents from stealing your business, and bad because you have to work with a union sound man.

Since this is in response to one of my posts may I say that all the union guys I work with are fantastic and are the best people to work with that I know. They are pro and they want it to be done right.

Rumley does assume too much here as far as how I work, however. Since all the union fellows and women I know have known me for many years they let me do whatever I want. I work any way I want and I set up my own mics, move them and hang them where ever I want and go on and off stage anytime I want and do whatever I need to do to get the best sound I can on that day.

If I need something that the house should provide or if I need extra Schoeps mics or anything else I mention this to my audio crew guy and/or stage hands and moments later whatever I need is in my hand. This happens on some of the most prestigious and most important stages in the world.

Can one imagine any better situation?

And yes, the house also enforces the rules about having no other recordings made. This policy is strict. If a person is caught making a recording, they are booted from the hall. Often the person trying to sneak the recording will self announce themselves in the audience by showing the ushers or crew the red lite from their recorder or camera. They are immediately booted from the hall by ushers or by security.

[JEGG]

Chicago superstation WGN's crews rock!

Very generous, they suffer the uninformed with efficient compassion. Very generous. Did I mention they are generous?

Superb diplomatic skills!

They are the model!

[radeng]

Originally Posted by JEGG

Chicago superstation WGN's crews rock!

Very generous, they suffer the uninformed with efficient compassion. Very generous. Did I mention they are generous?

Superb diplomatic skills!

They are the model!

This is a NABET shop.