Working with union (and non-union) soundmen

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by radeng

This is a NABET shop.

And they put a very good face on NABET and WGN!

[Plush]

The music house union I'm talking about in Chicago is IATSE. They're very good music engineers too. IATSE power!

[joelpatterson]

You're not saying that's the "black glove" union???

[JEGG]

For Chicago, I find all this very surprising an deeply satisfying!

Who'd have thunk? Functional organizations in Chicago.

Kudos to them and helpful people everywhere.

The point being, if we've forgotten, is that unions and their people can be better than fantastic to "visitors". As a relatively infrequent visitor, I'm in awe of their attitudes and the help they enthusiastically offer. I wish I was as constructive as they are. Too bad, I am not. Yet. But there's hope.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by Plush

The music house union I'm talking about in Chicago is IATSE. They're very good music engineers too. IATSE power!

Out here i've recorded in great IATSE houses and not-great. Down in Orange County, the local basically works with the attitude that IATSE is a privilege and therefore they need to do the best work possible. I've had entire PA systems hung in a couple hours by them- amazing workers and very cool guys.

In Los Angeles, however, the IA stage workers are a bit more entitled and they tend to work much slower and are more difficult to deal with. They can be great workers when they want, but you work on their schedule and their time.

When working in the film world, I have nothing but the greatest respect for the folks working on set. The different IA locals provide workers that are second to none. Between lighting, grip, camera, sound, etc.... they all do their thing and they do it well. Love when I get to spend time on a set.

--Ben

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Out here i've recorded in great IATSE houses and not-great. Down in Orange County, the local basically works with the attitude that IATSE is a privilege and therefore they need to do the best work possible. I've had entire PA systems hung in a couple hours by them- amazing workers and very cool guys.

In Los Angeles, however, the IA stage workers are a bit more entitled and they tend to work much slower and are more difficult to deal with. They can be great workers when they want, but you work on their schedule and their time.

When working in the film world, I have nothing but the greatest respect for the folks working on set. The different IA locals provide workers that are second to none. Between lighting, grip, camera, sound, etc.... they all do their thing and they do it well. Love when I get to spend time on a set.

--Ben

Here the Akron union is GREAT to work with and I know some people that I trust. The Cleveland union guys are also great but they still have some holdovers from the "olde days" and some of them can be very very hard to work with. The younger guys are more understanding and helpful. Both unions have GREAT people working for them and it is always a professional gig from start to finish.

I was doing the Cleveland Opera and one of the stage people decided to go home early. We were about 5 minutes from the end of the opera. The stage person goes out a door he is not suppose to use and tears out our ISDN feed. The station was not happy. I believe the union either fired the guy or suspended him for quite a while for a)leaving early and b) for going out a door he was not authorized to use. They said nothing about pulling out the ISDN wires. Such is life.

[roonsbane]

I want to chime in hear and tell you first off that generally, I really like the idea of unions. I have always generally been supportive of them. I am going to tell of some true stories as told to me. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. In the hope that maybe the slutz could give out some constructive info here.

So Bill works in several IATSE union houses regularly. His clients are the biggest in the classical world. He works in one hall as much as 2 – 3 times a week at certain times of the year. This hall is extremely difficult for all outside engineers that work there. Within minutes of walking in the door, several guests have said very quietly under their breath, “Why is the vibe in this place so dark”. “Everyone seems so unhappy and so unfriendly,” with the exception of 2-3 helpful, happy folks. Let’s call this hall, Hall-X.

Bills gigs are usually very easy for any of the union crews at hall-X . Bill frankly does all of the audio setup and tear down at every other hall entirely by himself. Usually four to Fourteen mics. It’s rarely hard work with the exception of his load in. The head audio guy at Hall-X, lets call him Ted, is not a competent or hard working engineer at least while Bill is in. Some examples; He did not at some earlier point in history know that phantom power is not passed through transformer legs of a splitter. Ted is not meticulous at all about placing spot mics. He will rarely spike mic placement or label mics onstage unless Bill asks him to and often puts mics in the wrong place or the wrong stage input. Ted once stuck a side fire mic on one of the most famous sopranos in the world as if it was a front fire mic so it pointed at her crotch during a live broadcast.

He runs his FOH console often with prefade levels coming into the console channels typically at around -40dBFS with all of his amps wide open. No regular maintenance is ever done on the system, so that if he finds a bad splitter channel, instead of marking it for a later fix, he just forgets about it and uses it on the next gigs again and again and again. An entire orchestra once waited on stage for about an hour while Ted patched microphones on a multiple (about 25 mics) piece with tape playback. A big name FOH engineer who flew in from Europe to mix the gig said to Bill “WHAT THE _UCK IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT GUY. PATCH ONE TO ONE! I DON’T GET THE PROBLEM”. In fact, Bill doesn’t ever remember him proactively doing a scratch test to check every mic coming in to both consoles to make sure they work. Very often many sources just simply aren’t there. Then if Ted is mixing FOH, he will make Bill wait till after the rehearsal until he works through the problem. So that he can’t get his own sound check time.

At one point in history, new mics were to be purchased. They already had probably $50,000 in existing mics. Ted asked Bill to put together a list of needed mics. Knowing how these things usually work, Bill shoots for the moon. Ordering Omni’s in three different brands knowing that these things are usually cut way back in the end. Months go by. One day Bill says to Ted “ You should let me take another look at the mic list at some point before ordering those mics, since I can probably cut it in half". Ted say’s “yeah don’t worry you guys will have an opportunity to tweak the list”. More months go by. He overhears someone say that the entire list of mics has been on order for a while and that they are due in soon. Sure enough they all arrived. Total cost of mics and accessories (hold on to your hats) $250,0000. Bill being a slut does not mind this of course

The new patchbay at Hall X is a long frame TT bay. Immediately the brand new patchbay had intermittent dirty connections, creeping up even during live national broadcasts. Bills theory is that the install company allowed a wall to be spray painted while the new bays were uncovered. Instead of being proactive, leaving a can of Kramilon type cleaner, or switching the bay to a much more solid XLR bay, Ted did nothing. In fact he said “the install company says it is your outboard $5,000 preamp (of course one they don’t sell), and you should no longer use it to avoid the problem”. He says “all of the onboard preamp connections to the console preamps are clean besides the outboard pre’s”. Bill takes his hand and touches a mass of TT cables on the bay with a bombardment of loud explosions over the monitors. Oh, I guess that’s not true!

When a new console was installed a few years ago, (think large MADI system), there were many kinks in the install. For several months Bill would arrive for gigs and he would have no control over his preamps. He would have to run to the front of house console to control his preamp settings. Of course he could not use the FOH settings since THEY WERE RUNNING AT -40 dBFS. From then on they used the often broken splitter to run to two different MADI boxes that they each control, if they both need a mic. Bill had to figure out and label all of the infrastructure while he was in for gigs otherwise it would not get done. He eventually discovered on his rehearsal time that there was no MADI connection getting back downstairs to his MADI box to actually do the controlling of pre’s.

There are many other examples of incompetent work being done at Hall-X from Ted. By the way, Ted is the head union rep. as well. Bills belief is that because they are usually small gigs compared to the big broadway shows that sometimes come to the hall, the audio guy looks at his gigs as a “day off”. That is why he is generally unavailable during rehearsals. Bill has been told by one of the outside group’s stage manager who is an IATSE member himself, that Ted is “untouchable”. That, his boss is actually part of the problem since he is actually afraid of Teds power a bit. His boss is management and not in the union.

So is he untouchable? What could possibly be done to change the situation here. Is there any recourse? Bill loves working at any and all other union venues that he has had to. They are all so much easier than working at Hall-X. Most just let him do whatever he needs to do.

Thoughts?

[roonsbane]

By the way,

Sometimes Ted can be very friendly. But some folks who have worked with him suggest he is Bi-Polar. Super hot and super cold.

[philper]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

By the way,

Sometimes Ted can be very friendly. But some folks who have worked with him suggest he is Bi-Polar. Super hot and super cold.

I'm not quite sure what your point is w/ the 2 previous posts. There are lazy/bad sound people who have permanent jobs w/ theatres etc who are union, yes, and some are not union too. I think we knew that. I have stories much like yours re non-union house soundies at very famous venues, but maybe worse in that these guys were outright saboteurs. In all the cases the person in question has made some kind of arrangement with people farther up the food chain that allows them to keep their job in spite of complaints. That is just something we deal with as outsiders in some venues, union or no.

phil p

[roonsbane]

I wasn't trying to make a point! Of course there are non union workers who are also bad. They usually don't run the show of course but sometimes. Though since you bring it up, when I was an non union "in house" person in a previous job, I was answerable to my boss and to clients. I know several of the folks at hall X would be fired within a week of practically any place I have ever worked. Their customer service is basically non-existent. Man I love this job. Why do it if you are so unhappy with it?

I was honestly asking if there is any system that is in place for removing someone like this. I know another union member had previously made a formal complaint against him or at least said he was going to. What about a non-union member? What does it take?

[philper]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

I wasn't trying to make a point! Of course there are non union workers who are also bad. They usually don't run the show of course but sometimes. Though since you bring it up, when I was an non union "in house" person in a previous job, I was answerable to my boss and to clients. I know several of the folks at hall X would be fired within a week of practically any place I have ever worked. Their customer service is basically non-existent. Man I love this job. Why do it if you are so unhappy with it?

I was honestly asking if there is any system that is in place for removing someone like this. I know another union member had previously made a formal complaint against him or at least said he was going to. What about a non-union member? What does it take?

It's not a union problem. It's a management problem. In my city, a union supervisor like the guy you mentioned would absolutely be fired if he was as incompetent as you say. For some reason the management of the hall you are referring to can't or won't fire that guy. If they did, his replacement would have to be another union guy if they are keeping their contract, but halls aren't obliged to keep a specific union member employed if they don't want to.

phil p

[rumleymusic]

but halls aren't obliged to keep a specific union member employed if they don't want to.

Not to engage in the conversation, but that's very true. If a person is incompetent, being union does not mean his job is secure. The major orchestra hall in San Diego has been through 4 sound guys in the past 3 years.

The rest of the crew is fantastic BTW.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Not to engage in the conversation, but that's very true. If a person is incompetent, being union does not mean his job is secure. The major orchestra hall in San Diego has been through 4 sound guys in the past 3 years.

The rest of the crew is fantastic BTW.

I think this is the core of it. By paying the premium for union workers there should be the reasonable expectation of premium labor. If the union and steward are on their game it is how it is. But unions are subject to the same flaws as the rest of us: they are human. This thread indicates that they are worth the extra pay more often than not.

I worked in a shop that had union wire pullers. They were pros. They did great work, were OK folks, and did all they could to insure the job was right and the customer, in house, was happy.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Union - Non Union it is the people NOT the union or lack of it that makes it work.

Any time I have ever had any problems with UNION workers it has been because of the person and not because they were unionized.

In the old days you had people working in union houses that were skilled in their jobs and did a GREAT job everyday. Today you still have GREAT people who are skilled and do a GREAT job everyday. The one thing that has changed is that a lot of venues are not union. Colleges and Universities in many cases do not have union workers in their concert halls. Churches don't usually employ union workers and many newer venues have no union workers. The supply is still the same the need has shrunk.

Unions also got into bed with a lot of "unsavory characters" <read the mob> and did some things that today I think they would just as soon forget.

When I am working in a good union hall I could not be happier. I have people who know what they are doing and do it well. If I do have a problem I can go to the shop steward, present my problems and in most cases get the problems resolved in short order. What else can you ask for in today's world.

[rumleymusic]

The one thing that has changed is that a lot of venues are not union.

I also notice here that some venues are bending the rules and using cheap interns to get past the need to hire more expensive union employees. That is the worst. I had one orchestra job where the sound "kid" wanted to lecture me on how "real" orchestra recordings are done. Like every instrument needing to have its own microphone. And since I was using AB omnis, he informed me that you cannot produce a stereo image with omni microphones. sigh

[sailcat]

A union member, a corporate CEO, and a tea party activist are sitting around a table. On the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO takes eleven of the cookies and says to the tea party activist, "Watch out, that union guy over there is going to try to take part of your cookie!"

[roonsbane]

Ted is the union steward! Also, I believe the union stage manager of an outside group (who has been in this business for 20 plus years and is generally regarded as one of the best in the business), when he says Ted is "untouchable". He is good friends with all of the union crew and I think we can believe him when he says this. We should also believe him when he says his boss is part of the problem since Ted walks all over him.

Obviously, it is much easier to get rid of of a non-union employee than a union one. I believe in due process that a union provides. I also believe Bill has so many examples of incompetence that he has met that standard for Ted's removal.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by sailcat

A union member, a corporate CEO, and a tea party activist are sitting around a table. On the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO takes eleven of the cookies and says to the tea party activist, "Watch out, that union guy over there is going to try to take part of your cookie!"

Perfect!

I may find myself repeating that one.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by JEGG

Perfect!

I may find myself repeating that one.

I already heard it from my retired glazier's union buddy. BTW, he made good wages, had good benefits and has a nice retirement now, funded, and worked union the whole time. He had all the work he wanted. He put in a big duo-pane for me with a buddy of his. They made it look as easy as buttering toast. It is when you know how.

[philper]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

Ted is the union steward! Also, I believe the union stage manager of an outside group (who has been in this business for 20 plus years and is generally regarded as one of the best in the business), when he says Ted is "untouchable". He is good friends with all of the union crew and I think we can believe him when he says this. We should also believe him when he says his boss is part of the problem since Ted walks all over him.

Obviously, it is much easier to get rid of of a non-union employee than a union one. I believe in due process that a union provides. I also believe Bill has so many examples of incompetence that he has met that standard for Ted's removal.

I've been in this business for over 35 yrs. NO ONE is "untouchable", at least not anymore. I'd put money on there being more to this story than what has been stated. If this guy is still employed its because someone(s) in a position of authority allow him to be.

phil p

[chris319]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

I also notice here that some venues are bending the rules and using cheap interns to get past the need to hire more expensive union employees. That is the worst. I had one orchestra job where the sound "kid" wanted to lecture me on how "real" orchestra recordings are done. Like every instrument needing to have its own microphone. And since I was using AB omnis, he informed me that you cannot produce a stereo image with omni microphones. sigh

My favorite bumper sticker of all time:

"Hire a recent college graduate ... while he still knows it all."

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

The names have been changed to protect the innocent. In the hope that maybe the slutz could give out some constructive info here.

So Bill works in several IATSE union houses regularly. His clients are the biggest in the classical world. Ted, is not a competent or hard working engineer at least while Bill is in. The head audio guy at Hall-X, lets call him Ted

I know those guys too. I worked with them at the Beethoven gig in San Dimas CA. Your right about Ted! There's something wrong with him.

@rumleymusic, That kid was there too. I think his name was Billy!