48 channel cheapo setup suggestions?

[znerol_1]

Hi everybody!

I have been a long time lurker on these boards and have found much insight from the discussions on this board.

here is a setup I'm about to put together for live recording and broadcast applications on the cheap, and I would like to hear your thoughts.

the system will be used for recording and broadcasting music festivals

stage rack
- 6 X focusrite octopre MKII dynamic (8 channel pre with all controls on the front and all connections on the back since it will be placed in a 16 u rack)

- rme adi 648 adat to madi

- rme hdsp madi in recording computer mounted in same rack fed by bnc madi of adi 648 (access to recording computer with vnc via local (wireless?) network) recording assistant near rack to check levels.

- tango 24 ad/da for additional 8 line I/O

output of the stage rack is split for FOH and monitor consoles

ob van
- rme hdspe madi connected to adi 648 via optical madi in and out

I would prefer if the focusrite had no dynamic controls and instead a pad switch but i like that they also offer D/A option that coould come in handy sometimes.

the whole system including racks, 2 computers, cables (1000m 8 strand optical), etc should come in at about 15k usd

anything that could be improved? I'd love to hear your opinions!

I know there is no backup for recording but the priority is on live broadcast for me at the moment

Kind regards,
Lorenz Kirchner

[mpdonahue]

If it were me I would replace the Octopre with the Aphex 188 mic preamp. It adds remote control with level monitoring of the AD converter over a simple cat5 network and adds the option of fixed gain analog line outs on 25 pin Tascam format connectors that are independent of the gain control for recording.

I know that they cost more than the Octopre, but they also have real transformer coupled inputs, which in a remote setup can end up being very valuable.
The other thing you might think about is some kind of MADI distribution. Something as simple as the Direct out 4x4 is a really useful tool when dealing with MADI. The other thing you can do is just get a cheap SDI copper or optical distribution amp and get multiple outputs (Redundant) for feeding other things.

Finally, while the RME is a nice card, you could save yourself a couple of bucks and go with the SSL MAdiextreme 64 or 128. Here in the states, the 64 is going for about $800 or less. (I got one on Ebay for $300) and the 128 can be had for just north of $1200.
All the best,
-mark

[znerol_1]

Hi Mark,

thanks for the suggestions!

the aphex is certainly a much better choice but unfortunately there is no way we can extend the budget that much.. pretty much double the price of the octopre :(

hopefully, transformers might not be such an important feature if the remote setup is linked purely by optical fiber? Well, there is still the issue of the foh and monitor console...

the quadbox is an excellent tip, especially since we will actually also be feeding an sdi link back to the ob van, a first search didn't bring up prices though...

could you give me a hint as to a cheap SDI optical distribution amp? i found a few but all over 1000 usd... good to know that madi can be sent via sdi gear! If i could find a cheap optical distribution amp i would certainly hook up the recording and broadcasting computers via fiber as well as providing fiber links for foh and monitors, that way we cold pretty much avoid any electric potential nastiness, ground loops etc

I'm liking the ssl card, good choice for recording machine, although no local analog out for monitoring so a bit of a hassle for the broadcasting computer, we have no console in the ob van just the daw.The PCI (not PCIe) version of the rme card can be found (second hand?) for a similar price as the ssl card i think, and it offers an analog out.

Thanks again!

Greetings,
Loz

[Christof]

Have a look on these: ADAT Multicore Extender ADX-32B / ADX-64B-PRO

We use one of those and it's been working perfect all the time!

EDIT: Reading your post again, this might be not the right thing for you - but maybe interesting for others.

[znerol_1]

Hi there

If it were me I would replace the Octopre with the Aphex 188 mic preamp.

the aphex is certainly a much better choice but unfortunately there is no way we can extend the budget that much..

It turns out, after much begging and diplomacy with FOH guys, we managed to convince the Boss to actually go for the aphex 188. The winning argument was that we could save getting a splitter by taking the fixed gain analog out and sending it to monitor AND FOH.

Now I have to find a cheap way to safely split the analog line out, so FOH nd monitor will be electrically isolated... any ideas?

I may be posting pics of the rig soon if anyone is interested.. maybe even if not

Kind regards,
Loz

[mpdonahue]

How are they accomplishing the split now?
Most decent Xformer splits will take a line level source up to about +10 dBu or so before they saturate.
Otherwise, you are looking at needing some kind of active split. A little more info on the systems involved and how they are interfaced is needed to give any kind of real answer.

All the best,
-mark

[huub]

why do the FOH and monitors need to be isolated? It's the same venue and thus the same earth right?
Can't you just simply spit the line signal by ways of Y-cable or patch them parallel?

[znerol_1]

huub: they may not need to, but the venue is actually an outdoor event... and the FOH is about 30~50 meters away from the stage sometimes using generators so I just like to have the option to isolate. But you are right I did consider to do just that: inside the rack simply wire two sets of outputs...

mark: ATM They are using a crappy passive transformer splitter.. the same one we all (foh monitor recording broadcast) were using before.. I am thinking of splitting out of preamp with y-cable (inside rack) and then just put that splitter before the monitor console without splitting anything... feasible?

the FOH often is some digidesign venue with the stagebox next to the FOH instead of on stage and with an analog multicore to stage (don't ask me why) monitor desk often is pm5d with analog ins. I'm hoping to supply the fixed 26 dB gain outs of the 188 to both the FOH and the monitors as simply as possible.

I am trying to avoid the active splitter (cost) and I am hoping that the FOH guys will be fine with using the line in of their desk rather than going through their mic pres. But I might need to prepare for the case that they want to do everything as they always do, which might mean putting some sort of DI circuit in front of their inputs so they have their 'mic signals' as usual... any thoughts?

Kind regards,
loz

[znerol_1]

Hi everybody,

I may need help, I would like to get the 6 aphex 188 to Beijing within three weeks, and it seems impossible... all dealers are quoting at least 6-8 weeks! I have noticed this kind of thing before but it would be really great if there was some way to speed up the procedure... Does anyone know a reputable shop in the US that is willing to Fedex or DHL six units to our beijing office?

Cheers,
Loz

[mpdonahue]

I would start by contacting Aphex directly and checking if there is stock anywhere. Also, make sure you get new stock with the rev C circuit boards.

All the best,
-mark

[Murton]

As a FOH mixer, I'm telling you now, I will not give up direct gain control of my lines to facilitate a broadcast or recording split.

Going active is probably cheaper and easier than going passive with XFM'ers.

Usually we will be running a two way split, direct to FOH and transformer isolated to monitors. If you want to introduce broadcast and recording splits, they need to bring their own splitter and looms or have in the production budget money to hire a 4 way splitter, either passive with good transformers or 4 way active for the amount of channels involved.

It's going to solve a lot of problems down the line. You will get FOH and monitor engineers telling you to take a hike, you expect them to change their entire console scene gain structure because you don't have a proper splitter and expect them to use your gain and your preamps.

I would go for the following:

6x Octopre mkII Dynamic/Aphex 188
Your line I/O module
RME ADAT to MADI
MADI interface in your PC
MADI splitter
48/56 channels of active splitters, 2 way to take the monitor or FOH feed and enough looms to piggyback on their spliter, giving them the direct out, you taking the transformer isolated split.

With live recording your biggest challenge is interfacing with production and not effecting thier operation. I only do small live recording setups (16-18 channels) when I'm walking into an external production. I carry a whirlwind passive transformer equiped two way splitter and enough looms to feed my snake and the inhouse snake with lines being plugged into my splitter box, then loomed to their stage box. I would only do larger setups if I was doing FOH or monitors (Which is usually the case) and I could just record my lines or I had a larger splitter or production had a 3/4 way splitter and provided me a feed.

I'll reiterate, aim to have as little of an effect on the live production as possible, provide a splitter or take a split feed, run your audience mics/any other specific mics to your broadcast/recording, make sure you have plenty of power cable to run to your van/room and long enough MADI core to your van etc, run a UPS for the computer, run a backup recorder, also cable trays/carpet is a good investment.

[znerol_1]

Mark: of course I have contacted Aphex, no reply so far... will call them on monday. I'm beginning to think it might be a bad choice to go with equipment that is so difficult to get hold of.. hm.. i would prefer equipment that is readily available and serviceable and replacable..

What is this rev C stuff all about? I just would like to get the units at all.. at the moment. Is it really such a rare item that there aren't 6 units in stock somewhere? That makes me seriously suspicious... what if a unit breaks and i need a replacement.. wait two months every time? Not an option, really. I fear I'll be forced to go with the octopres which I can pick up anytime plus some sort of splitter..

Murton: You are absolutely correct of course. I have been discussing this indepth with the FOH guys and they said exactly the same thing. The cool thing with the Aphex is that it essentially is an active splitter with either 26db or 0db (via 26db pad switch) fixed gain which should allow the FOH guys to work as usual.

This rig is for our in house production so your point about not affecting the production is valid but perhaps not fully applicable in our case, also as mentioned above the final setup would have comparatively little impact on the current setup.

48 channels of (decent) active splitters plus 6 X octopre would exceed the cost of 6 X aphex 188... or do you have recommendations for cheap but decent active splitters?

--

Fair enough if there aren't any 188 units in stock anywhere in the world (although that would make me really reconsider them as a reliable production option) but otherwise I would find it slightly insulting, it being the 21st century, that it may take 2 months to get them to us when DHL can get stuff to my door in a matter of days

As a comparison, all the RME gear (adi 648 / hdsp madi) has arrived within 10 days, acceptable given that it had to be shipped here too..

[Murton]

Either two of these:

Whirlwind SB24T11G - 24 Input Passive Mic Splitter SB24T11G B&H

Or one of these:

Whirlwind CSR58TNRRP Concert 58NR 58 Input CSR58TNRRP B&H Photo

I bought a 16 channel version of the first one and it's great, from the same company aswell.

So your setup could be:

6x Octopre mkII Dyanmic or a remote controllable 8 channel preamp controlled via cat5.
2x SB24T11G 24 channel 2-way splitter
12x 8 channel looms (6 to go to the preamps, 6 to the inhouse core.) Maybe get 2 spare.
RME ADAT to MADI
MADI Soundcard
MADI splitter
Core: 2x MADI lines, 2x cat6. your desired length, tape them up, put on a reel.

[znerol_1]

Hi Murton,

the setup you posted there is almost identical to my original cheapo plan.. although I will go optical on the network too since we may often be located far away from the stages, so I am preparing a 1000 meter optical fiber reel which will carry optical madi and optical network.

I'm not quite sure how you 'tape up' any length of cable, please elaborate.

BTW Of the two splitters you posted I like the first one better, because it does not use multi pin connectors -> easier to locate and fix a problem if one line doesn't work..

Kind regards,
Loz

[Murton]

What I usually do is when I have a multicore I attached a power line to it so I have power at FOH which comes from the stage, to reduce any ground issues and to have a voltage reading at FOH on my power conditioner which is going to be close to that which my speakers are receiving so I know if there are any voltage drops etc.

So if you were to get two optical lines (1x main, 1x redundancy) any analogue lines etc power, comms, returns etc.

I would get them all laid out together, and physically tape them together with black electric tape and then over under coil the entire 'snake'.

That way you only have to run a single core and possibly a power run separate.

Saves a lot of time and hassle.

Yeah I also like the first option, the second is more for more serious rigs which have MASS connectors on the back of racks which the big guys use ala Steve remote.

[znerol_1]

Hi,

I called Aphex yesterday and they have one unit in stock, to make more they would require at least 4 weeks.. all the shops in the US or worldwide only seem to have the aphex 188 on 'special order' so that clears it up.. apparently there is no way an aphex 188 could be delivered anywhere quick.

now i need to decide if I still wanna order them and ask the boss to rent equipment for the two major events coming up in May... or simply do the damn octopre thing and be done/stuck with it.. ..and the clock is ticking..

...options anyone?

..anyone got any more suggestions for a cheap rack mountable splitter?


Murton: ah, i c.. well I would need a lot of electrical tape and patience for a 1000 meter reel I have 'taped up' cables like that before, I didn't like it - kind of gets messy with with use... but thanks for your advice

Cheers,
Loz

[Murton]

The cheap option is 6 ART S8 rackmount splitters.

[LX3]

Agreed that the ART is a cheap option. But I'd be wary of making too many compromises or buying too many bits of low-budget kit. I find it works out a lot better to get something you (and your clients) will be happy using for years to come, because the amount of time you have to invest in racking/casing/wiring all this stuff totally overshadows the cost of the gear. When you inevitably upgrade to something higher quality you usually have to go thru all that wiring trauma again.

Bearing in mind it can take weeks to wire even a "ready-made" splitter. Try making a rack of Radial 8ox's!

Not to mention of course that it costs more to buy the wrong thing, then sell it and buy the right thing, than it does to buy the right thing in the first place.

So on that note, it may well make sense to rent some of the gear until you can afford/decide what you actually want. Especially if you only have a couple of confirmed events coming up.

Just saying....

[znerol_1]

LX3: In China rental costs are very high, yet it is what we have been doing.. and the choice of equipment is extremely limited. Our current production is technically so underdeveloped that even the discussed 'cheap' options will be a massive improvement.

racking/casing/wiring is done by our local Chinese engineers and does certainly not take weeks, days perhaps. Sure, it's a huge job but people here work hard for what you would consider little money.

Anyway, I have decided to still order the aphex 188 and test them at our events later in the year. The analog outputs of the 188 will be wired parallel like huub suggested but I might use something like the ART T8 to isolate the two sets of analog outputs (thanks Murton . The ADAT out will go to the RME ADI 648 and the coaxial MADI will be fed to a Computer inside the rack (recording) while the optical MADI will go to the OB van for broadcast and perhaps be split with something like the 'QuadBox 4X4 Fiber Mini-Switch' Mark mentioned for backup recording. Choosing aphex seems a risky option given all the signs (no stock anywhere, patchy spec info, little usage report) but I'm willing to give them a shot. In the meantime I'll have to make alternative arrangements for the upcoming events..

Mark: What is the story about the rev C circuit boards?

Cheers, Loz

[LX3]

Great news, that solves a lot of the problem. I know for sure that it'd make a massive difference to have a team of people taking care of all my wiring for me... Without it costing thousands.

I enjoy sitting and building kit, but it is a challenge to get it done when you're busy... which is when you usually need the kit the most.

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by znerol_1

Mark: What is the story about the rev C circuit boards?
Cheers, Loz

Loz,
There are 3 versions of boards for the 188. The first 2 revisions of boards had an issue with some HF noise at 96k on the digital outputs only. For analog use they are all identical.
Also, on the rev 1 board there was an ECO required to use AES-3id as external clock via the BNC connector. This is a very useful feature for clocking a group of converters without daisy chaining them. We take 4 pairs of AES from the master device and send it down a piece of CAT5 to the rack of preamps and then use a 4x 110-75 balun to make the signal unbalanced, which gives each of the converters their own clock. If one fails, the rest of the chain is unaffected.
The other thing you will want to invest in is an Ethernet router that has DHCP for the remote control and metering. While I've gotten it to work on a fixed IP network, it is MUCH better when DHCP is used. I actually use a Linksys DIR-655 which also has high power 802.11n. The remote and meters work fine over the WiFi as long as you are within range and using N. 802.11g gives real limited range and spotty meter ballistics. Disable the SSID and use WPA encryption and you won't have to worry about others trying to glom onto your network. Also, be sure to check which channels are free on the WIFI spectrum.
All the best,
-mark

[recordinghopkins]

I use the ART S8 often, and have employed them reliably in my 24 channel rig for a couple of years now. They've got a hundred or more setups/strikes on them by now and they still work and look like new.

You'd be looking at about 1200 bucks for 48 channels of s8 splits, and you'd future proof your rig by using proper mic level splits. I know you said that it would be integrated into your current setup and you're keeping it in the family, but if you implement transformer splits, you can interface with any system in the world.

[znerol_1]

hi everybody,

thanks for the many suggestions, good stuff.

mark: thanks for the info, since they are making the aphex 188 especially now I hope it will be the latest revision, interesting points about the networking... might come back to that when I have more time again...

The local aphex dealer has kindly offered a few other preamps (a few micstasy and octamic d) on loan while we wait for the 188 to arrive and we hired active splitters... so everything looks ok.

Or would be apart from the fact that the boss decided he does want to sell DVDs of last year's events and wants mixes of 25 songs by monday, so the factory will have the DVDs ready by 28 APR, ...great... ah well, it's rock'n roll

Cheers,
Loz

[znerol_1]

Hi everybody,

just a little update, madi worked like a charm over our cheap 1km multimode fiber cable, the same can not be said for the gigabit network, luckily there was a single mode fiber network on site.

Our hotchpotch of mic pres worked ok, it didn't look very pretty though, will try and get some pics up sometime..

Wish would have used PT to do the live mix but while we hv a hd system we do't hv a digidesign - sorry- avid madi interface but avid doesn't allow more than 32 inputs on non-avid hardware therefore we chose nuendo, which worked fine

For the event this weekend I will only use 300 m of multimode fiber cable which should allow me to also run gigabit network through it..

Peace,
Loz

[znerol_1]

Hi there,

a bit late bute here are a few photos of the rack in action... notice the custom made rack-fan above those preamps cost me less than 100 usd and really worked well... a digitial soundcraft console died a heat death at a later event (got up to 100 degree celsius!)

the laptop is using a vnc software to give me control of the recording computer inside the rack.. i tried running ardour on osx for recording this time as you can see.. no problems

Still embarrassing to see those behringers in the rack, and they are really bad... what i hate especially is that there is no way to set the level properly by looking at them, the signal led are pretty much useless but the Aphex 188 still haven't arrived (have been promised them by next week)

cheers,
Loz

[chris319]

Rule #1: No smoking, eating or drinking directly over the console!

Console innards don't like crumbs, liquids or cigarette ash.

[recordinghopkins]

Originally Posted by chris319

Rule #1: No smoking, eating or drinking directly over the console!

Console innards don't like crumbs, liquids or cigarette ash.

yep, that's a good way to get sent home from a gig if you're on my crew.
Respect the gear and it will respect you!

[znerol_1]

yeah,

..sometimes I wish I had a say about who is on the crew for monitors.. or even PA.

Even though that guy's cigarette was probably less harmful than the sandstorm the following day I wholeheartedly agree with the need for good work procedures..

Cheers,
Loz

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by chris319

Rule #1: No smoking, eating or drinking directly over the console!

Console innards don't like crumbs, liquids or cigarette ash.

...unless, you're dying for a smoke, famished or seriously thirsty;-)

No, I hear you; we use bottles with caps; all beverages must be capped and placed lower than the tallest piece of equipment when not in use.

[jude]

Originally Posted by chris319

Rule #1: No smoking, eating or drinking directly over the console!

Console innards don't like crumbs, liquids or cigarette ash.

Just give up smoking! i feel way better for giving them up 5 months ago
As for the drinking, eating... i take a bar fridge to all the festivals i work. food and drink stay in there unless they are actually being eaten.

That said, i have a cut out in the foam of my DDA's roadcase in the front right corner that fits a stubbie perfectly. after a few days baby sitting DJs it will lead you to drink!