ULN-2 into Tascam DR-680-How?

[choros]

Hi,

Long time lurker, first post - learning a lot just reading here!!

I'd like to use my ULN-2 Legacy as a stand alone preamp into a Tascam DR-680 field recorder to power a pair of Beyer m160 ribbon mics. I'm not very knowledgeable about this stuff yet, so please excuse any dumb questions. I just ordered the Tascam today and need to know which cables to order.
Product: DR-680 | TASCAM
Metric Halo Mobile I/O ULN-2
http://www.mhlabs.com/metric_halo/do...LN2-Manual.pdf

Should I go from the Analog Outs of the ULN-2 into the DR-680 channel 1&2 (combi) mic/line inputs using TRS cables or use the RCA S/PDIF out of the ULN-2 into the DR-680? (I've starting reading but I'm still not really sure what S/PDIF is?) If I do go Analog Outs, should I be using -10 or +4 setting on the ULN-2? If I go S/PDIF what kind of S/PDIF cable do I need, assuming there are different kinds?

Another dumb question perhaps: The DR-680 records 24-bit/192kHz when using 2 tracks. Can the ULN-2 can do this in stand-alone? I'm assuming it doesn't matter when it's in stand alone preamp mode?

Also, will connecting to the DR-680 via TRS cables bypass it's preamp section so I'm only getting the ULN-2's preamps?

I've just posted this on the MobileIO mailing list too but I know several people have been using the DR-680 here so thanks in advance for the help.


All the Best!


Jay

[tnjazz]

ULN-2 S/PDIF output -> Tascam S/PDIF input

Make sure the Tascam is set to accept digital input and that your sample rates are matched correctly.

Use a 75 ohm cable (or a yellow "video" composite cable).

Do not go analog in - the ULN-2 A/D is infinitely superior to the Tascam.

The ULN will not output 192 digitally though. If you're sold on 192k you'll have to go in analog as you described.

[choros]

Thanks tnjazz!

This is good news if you're saying that I can use the ULN-2's A/D instead of the DR-680!

No, I'm not sold on recording in 192 kHz. I'm confused about the DR-680 though. It says "Stereo 192kHz/24-bit recording mode". I'm hoping I don't 'have' to record in 192khz when just recording 2 tracks?

Also, If I go SPDIF, I'll 'only' be able to record 2 tracks, right?
I mean, I probably can't record 2 tracks via SPDIF from the ULN-2 using it's A/D and then a few more tracks via the preamp ins of the DR-680 using it's A/D at the same time, right?

Still learning, thanks,

Jay

[tnjazz]

The Tascam is selectable from 44.1 to 192khz. I typically record at 44.1 or 48khz, but we do live stuff in clubs mostly. If I were doing studio work or classical in nice rooms I might consider recording at 96k though.

You absolutely can record tracks in addition to the SPDIF. All 8 channels of the Tascam are designed to be used simultaneously.

Good luck!
Dirk

[choros]

Ok. I've done some reading now that I somewhat know what I'm looking for, thanks to you and some MobileIO mailing list help. I've read through many threads on SPDIF/AES now too and am very interested and learning immensely. But I have a specific question that I can't find:

Would I be best getting an AES cable made with XLR to RCA connectors?


The ULN-2 Manual recommends AES over SPDIF. From what I now understand, SPDIF is consumer, AES is Pro protocol. They both can do 24bit 96khz, but AES is 110 ohm, SPDIF is 75 ohm. AES is like a balanced SPDIF. Am I right with all of this?

The Tascam DR-680 has AES IN, or SPDIF IN, on 1 RCA plug. The ULN-2 has AES OUT on an XLR or SPDIF on an RCA. The DR-680 says that it automatically knows what's coming in (SPDIF or AES) on it's RCA plug. So, would I be best getting an AES cable made with XLR to RCA connectors? Can RCA connectors handle the 110 ohm of AES protocol? I'm assuming yes, right? - since the DR-680 has 1 RCA IN that automatically senses SPDIF or AES.

BTW I did find a yellow 75 ohm cable bundled with cables from a DVD player so I did get lucky! Thanks! I never would have thought to look for that!! (someone on the MIO list mentioned this too so I had an idea to look for it) I'll do some testing today with it. I'm going to want to order cables tomorrow so I'm still curious if I should just get a dedicated 75 ohm RCA to RCA short SPDIF cable or a 110 ohm RCA to XLR AES cable made (if this is even possible?). I'll call RedCo tomorrow anyway but I'm just trying to gather as much info as possible before I talk to them. Thanks!


Jay

[choros]

So, either way, if I go AES or SPDIF out of the ULN-2, is the DR-680 just becoming a flash memory capture device bypassing it's converters and getting all the goodness of the ULN-2 A/D?

I'm looking to use the Tascam instead of my noisy fanned MacBook on location (and in home studio perhaps) for classical music - mostly guitar, guitar/flute, etc.

The Macbook isn't exceptionally noisy for a laptop I guess- but too noisy to record with in the same room - without having to bury it under the desk behind pillows or in the closet etc. - which is very inconvenient. I'm excited about the DR-680 in this respect.


Thanks

[tnjazz]

yes the Tascam becomes a simple "bit bucket" at that point. Just capturing the digital signal and bypassing everything else.

SPDIF is "consumer" yes, but that's pretty much what the Tascam is anyway.

You won't see a difference between going SPDIF>SPDIF versus going AES>converter>SPDIF.

Bits is bits.

[choros]

Thanks so much for the help tnjazz.

I can't get the DR-680 and the ULN-2 to lock via SPDIF. I keep getting a "DIN UNLOCK" message when I press Pause to enable Recording. I've set and saved the Snapshot 2 State of the ULN-2 to:

Clock Source-Internal
Sample Rate-48000
WC Out-1x FS
DI Source-S/PDIF
DI SRC-not highlighted

DR-680 is set to:

I/O
INPUT SEL - DIGITAL
A. OUT SEL - DIRECT
D. OUT MODE - SPDIF

REC
FORMAT - WAV 24 bit
SAMPLE - 48 kHz
FILE - STEREO
TRACK - (all tracks 1-6 and ST are in listed in dark blocks. I can't select anything here)
ST REC - MIX


I've unplugged the ULN-2, and with the DR-680 off, hooked up the SPDIF cable then plugged ULN-2 in and switched to Snapshot to 2 on the front. I then power on the DR-680. I've made sure the DR-680 is set to same sample rate. I've also set the DR-680 to 24bit and set the Digital In to SPDIF on the DR-680 enabling tracks 5&6 to record the SPDIF signal.

Is there something obvious that i'm missing regarding the ULN-2 Snapshot? Perhaps the clock? I don't understand anything about clocking or if the DR-680 is supposed to clock off of what's coming in. Can't find it in the manual - no mention of clocking.
I have the SPDIF cable coming from the ULN-2 RCA Out to the DR-680 RCA In. Do I need to get another SPDIF Cable to connect from the DR-680 Out to the ULN-2 In as well? Should I set the ULN-2 clock differently?


Thanks for any more help or suggestions.

Jay

[tnjazz]

The Tascam has known issues with digital input. It's a consumer deck and apparently has some issues with the digital stream from other devices. The Audient Mico has also been discovered to be problematic with the DR680.

It may be necessary to contact Tascam directly because it seems as though you have everything set up correctly.

Dirk

[choros]

Hey thanks a lot for the quick help on this tnjazz. I sent a support ticket to Tascam this morning - and Metric Halo. Although I didn't really want to bother MH with tech supporting the DR-680 - just wondered if I was doing something obviously wrong with the ULN-2 'Snapshot State'. I just tried a different 75 ohm SPDIF cable - so it's not a bad cable.

Too bad if I can't use the ULN-2 A/D. Now that I know there may be issues with this I'm wondering if I should send it back and try something else. What though? Or save up for a SD702 so I don't have to bring the ULN-2 out to power the Ribbon mics? But then I don't have the extra channels to play with - although I'm really just doing small chamber classical stuff that may just require a stereo pair. (Thinking out loud - sorry)

So, here's my dilemma. Do I keep the DR-680 and just go analog in with the ULN-2 to power the Beyer M160 Ribbons or just get longer mic cables and deal with hiding my MacBook and it's fan on location for now? Hmmm...

Thanks for any more advice and all the great help already.


Jay

[johnsound]

I've connected my 2882 to my DR-680 with no problems. Not at home at the moment, but will investigate the sequence later today.

I take it you're using the 1.2 firmware upgrade on the DR-680?

John

[choros]

Originally Posted by johnsound

I take it you're using the 1.2 firmware upgrade on the DR-680?

John

Nope. 1.11. I'll update now. I hope this fixes it. I'll update in a minute. Please let me know how you did it with 2882 though. Thanks!


Jay

[choros]

Updated to 1.2 firmware. Still doesn't work. I get the 'DIN UNLOCK' message.


Thanks

[johnsound]

OK. I'll check. May not be until tomorrow, though. Stuck in a rehearsal at the moment. There is something counter-intuitive about it, I seem to remember.

Regards,

John

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by johnsound

OK. I'll check. May not be until tomorrow, though. Stuck in a rehearsal at the moment. There is something counter-intuitive about it, I seem to remember.

Regards,

John

Agreed. I cannot remember what it is either. I did some tests when we were troubleshooting the Mico a few months ago and I remember having to do something a little odd to get the digital stream working properly from a different SPDIF source (although I did get it working - I never did get the Mico working though). Hopefully the fact that a 2882 will connect to a 680 means there's just something funky in the menu that hasn't been addressed properly...

[choros]

Thanks guys! I do really hope this works out. I look fwd to hearing what you come up with tomorrow regarding the 2882, John (or Dirk), and I'll let you guys know what Tascam says if I hear back first.


Jay

[johnsound]

OK, there's definitely something odd going on here. Before I go into it in more detail, have you tried hooking up at 44.1? I can get this to work perfectly every time, but I can't seem to get digital lock at any other sample rate.

Correction - I now have 44.1 and 48k working.

Try it and let me know.

John

[choros]

I'm going to try right now. No word from Tascam yet but Metric Halo said I have everything configured right on the ULN-2. I'll check right back in. Thanks John.

[choros]

EDIT: It doesn't give me the DIN UNLOCK message at 44.1 but I'm getting no signal in on the level meters and no sound on DR-680 headphone or monitor speaker with mics hooked up to the ULN-2 and meters showing signal on the ULN-2. So, it STILL doesn't work at all.

44.1 - At least it doesn't give me the DIN UNLOCK message. It doesn't give me a DIN LOCK message either. It just goes into standby record mode when I press pause. I think that means it's locked and ready to work, yes? I'd REALLY like to get this working at 48 for syncing with video so please do tell. Thanks!

I had thought to try 44.1 last night but gave up after trying 48 a couple more dozen times and was ready to pack it up and ship it back. Thanks for giving me some hope here!


Jay

[johnsound]

I can get 48K working consistently now, but not 96K. Oddly, I don't get the DIN UNLOCK message, but the transport just locks up. Time for a message to TASCAM, I feel. I think the 48k moment came after I connected the AES output of a TASCAM DA-30 directly to the DR-680 and now it works happily with AES or S/PDIF in at 48K. I remember having a similar problem with a 2882 and a Sony DAT machine some years ago and having to sort of kick-start the Sony to take a real S/PDIF signal. B.J. suggested this to me at what must have been about 4 a.m. on a Sunday morning for him. Excellent service from Metric Halo, as always.

If you want to check that you're getting signal in, press the Home/Function button a couple of times until you get a menu with options like Repeat and Pre.Rec, then scroll down and highlight the item labeled MIX MON: pressing the Value knob will make this change to DIN Monitor which should allow you to listen to thr digital input through the internal (and totally crappy) speaker or cans.

I have to go to work now, so probably no more for a while.

Regards,

John

[choros]

Well. I tried 96k just for fun and it's a no go. Also, 48k still doesn't work at all.



And at 44.1 it doesn't give me the DIN UNLOCK message but I'm getting no signal in on the level meters and no sound on DR-680 headphone or monitor speaker with mics hooked up to the ULN-2 and meters showing signal on the ULN-2. So, it STILL doesn't work at all

[choros]

Thanks so much John for taking the time with all the help and great info. I posted my last message before i read yours. I'll keep at it and see if I can find something else with AES out which sadly I don't think I have. Unless I get an AES XLR to RCA cable made to try with the ULN-2 into the DR-680? Do you think jump starting it with the same device that is giving me problems with it (ULN-2) might help? I'll update later. Thanks again.

Jay

[choros]

I just edited my above post that said it was working with 44.1 - It's NOT.

EDIT: It doesn't give me the DIN UNLOCK message at 44.1 but I'm getting no signal in on the level meters and no sound on DR-680 headphone or monitor speaker with mics hooked up to the ULN-2 and meters showing signal on the ULN-2. So, it STILL doesn't work at all.


I'll keep at it but I'm feeling more and more like sending it back. Thanks for any more help or suggestions - John, Dirk or anyone else. An incredible resource this place is - thanks again.


Jay

[johnsound]

Jay,

Try the following:

DR-680 is set to:

I/O
INPUT SEL - ANALOG
A. OUT SEL - DIRECT
D. OUT MODE - SPDIF

REC
FORMAT - WAV 24 bit
SAMPLE - 48 kHz
FILE - STEREO
TRACK - (all tracks 1-6 and ST are in listed in dark blocks. I can't select anything here) *While this is highlighted, press the track buttons to turn tracks on and off for recording. In this mode, you won't be able to turn off tracks 5 & 6.)

ST REC - DIN

This routes the Digital In to the Stereo track (effectively tracks 7 & 8)

Don't forget to switch monitoring as described in my previous message, otherwise you won't see or hear anything.

John

[choros]

I'll try this in 2.5 hrs. I've got a couple guitar lessons coming. Thanks John for the incredible help so far.

[choros]

Originally Posted by johnsound

Jay,

Try the following:

DR-680 is set to:

I/O
INPUT SEL - ANALOG
A. OUT SEL - DIRECT
D. OUT MODE - SPDIF

REC
FORMAT - WAV 24 bit
SAMPLE - 48 kHz
FILE - STEREO
TRACK - (all tracks 1-6 and ST are in listed in dark blocks. I can't select anything here) *While this is highlighted, press the track buttons to turn tracks on and off for recording. In this mode, you won't be able to turn off tracks 5 & 6.)

ST REC - DIN

This routes the Digital In to the Stereo track (effectively tracks 7 & 8)

Don't forget to switch monitoring as described in my previous message, otherwise you won't see or hear anything.

John

I set everything as you described. I get the DIN UNLOCK when set to 48k still. I don't get that message when set to 44.1k but I still don't get any signal coming through the headphones or speaker and no levels showing up on the meters for Track 5/6 or the stereo track even in 44.1. No signal is coming through. Meters are working on the front of the ULN-2 showing signal from the mics.

I have recorded audio through the analog ins XLR mic inputs. So the unit does work and get signal through that way.

Disappointing... Can you think of anything else? I like the 'idea' of the DR-680 as a silent "bit bucket" for my ULN-2 and am bummed about having to send it back - Which I've decided I will at this point if digital SPDIF won't work.

Thanks again,


Jay

[choros]

John,

I've just read the latest response on the MIO mailing list. I am willing to hang in here and keep trying if you are and have any more ideas. Thanks a lot.

But, this has changed my plans a bit hearing that a ULN-8 had problems feeding a Sound Devices recorder. I was going to send this back and save a few months for a SD702. Man, what to do now....?


Jay

[johnsound]

Jay,

Sometimes it's something really simple, but in your case, something else seems to be going on. It's a while since I used a ULN-2 but it's worth just going through a few things before giving up. We might be better off having this conversation off-line for the time being. Are you on Skype, by any chance? PM me anyway with a contact number and I'll call you and see if we can get something going. I have to be back at work in an hour or so, so tomorrow might be best. Which part of the USA are you in? (I'm assuming that you are there somewhere, since there's no Redco in the UK)

Regards,

John

[choros]

John,

Yes. I'll PM you with Skype contact. Thanks. Northeast Pennsylvania, USA. BTW


Jay

[MichaelPatrick]

Try like johnsound said but change the INPUT SEL to DIN.


I/O
INPUT SEL - DIN
A. OUT SEL - DIRECT
D. OUT MODE - SPDIF

REC
FORMAT - WAV 24 bit
SAMPLE - 48 kHz
FILE - STEREO
TRACK - (all tracks 1-6 and ST are in listed in dark blocks. I can't select anything here)

ST REC - DIN