My first professional pair of mics

[dortola]

Hi! I’m in the process of buying my first pair of professional or high end mics.
Main use will be orchestral, choir or classical music recordings, in local theaters with good to very good acoustics.
I’d prefer to record just with one pair of mics, using the appropriate stereo technique for the venue, and sometimes I will use another pair as outriggers.
I’m looking for your advice and comments. My choices are:
- Schoeps CMC6 with omni capsules (Mk2 or Mk21?)
- DPAs 4006 (or 4007?)
- Sennheiser MKH 8020
Could you please share with me your experiences and advices?
Thanks!

[boojum]

I have the DPA 4006's (TL) and 4061's. They are very accurate. They are uncolored. Schoeps might be better of you want a more colored capture. I have the Mk4's , cardioids, and like them.

A usual setup can be ORTF with omni flankers. If you can be sure of always have a good to very good venue and you can be sure of always being able to place those mics in the right spot omnis are the way to go. FWIW I have had good luck with the 4061's at 40cm in an A-B array. Very omni and without the grids they are almost perfectly flat 20 - 20kHz. They are quite affordable.

As mics and recorders excite us immensely you will get lots of opinions on this one. For each member there are at least two opinions on this subject.

You've mine.

Cheers

[AB3]

I have the Senn 8020s and love them on everything so far, ir you want to go the omni route. The DPA 4006s with the various accessories may be more versatile.

If you want to spend less, I find the Beyerdynamic MC930 (and the MC910 and MC950) as great starter mics that have a professional sound.

[9sbean]

Congratulation! Both Schoeps and DPA are excellent. If you can suspend the mic, DPA and Schoeps Colette series are great. If you need to use the mic as spot on a boom, Schoeps compact (CCM series) got better price boom than the boom for colette series.

DPA 4060/4061 are excellent miniature microphone with excellent price. You could even built a sphere mic with them easily.

[RobAnderson]

My very first pair of "real" mic's were Schoeps CMC64's and that is one purchase I have never regretted.

Unless you are sure about the acoustics, I think I'd go for cardioids over omni's - while the omni will sound much better in the ideal circumstances, cardioids are a bit more flexible in a greater number of environments and applications.

For me, modular mic's like the Schoeps or Sennheisers are the way to go, since you can add capsules later at less cost than buying an entire microphone like the DPA's (nothing against DPA's - these are phenomenal mic's that are worth every penny you pay for them).

[666666]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

...For me, modular mic's like the Schoeps or Sennheisers are the way to go, since you can add capsules later at less cost than buying an entire microphone like the DPA's...

DPA just went modular!!! Check out their new "reference" line. You can get a transformerless mic body and assorted capsules including the 4006, 4011 etc.

DPA Reference Standard Condenser Microphones

[RobAnderson]

DPA just went modular!!!

Holy High Impedance Batman!!

When did this happen?

Man - life used to be so simple and now...

[hughesmr]

Any of the omnis you cite can produce beautiful results (depending on how you use them). It is much an issue of personal taste at this level. I would say that DPA will give you the most flexibility with their accessories, if you are intending to buy only one pair.

But were I you, and had only one pair, I would seriously consider the MK21. You can use it in spaced pairs or quasi-near coincident setups. As soon as you find yourself in a not-so-great room (which will eventually happen), you'll wish you had some rejection in your pattern ... even a little!

MK21 are my desert island mics. Not perfect for everything, but very useful in most situations.

[666666]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

...MK21 are my desert island mics. Not perfect for everything, but very useful in most situations.

Thanks for the report.

Just wondering, while using your MK21 pair, did you ever wish you had an MK21H pair instead? Comments?

Thanks

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by 666666

Just wondering, while using your MK21 pair, did you ever wish you had an MK21H pair instead? Comments?

No, never. I do also use the MK2S omni extensively, but only when I am at a larger distance from the source in a live acoustic. I've never sensed the need for a HF bump when using the 21 however ... just a smooth natural soundfield (when used wisely .

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Holy High Impedance Batman!!

When did this happen?

NAMM show.

[jmcarlock]

Originally Posted by 666666

Thanks for the report.

Just wondering, while using your MK21 pair, did you ever wish you had an MK21H pair instead? Comments?

Thanks

I was wondering this too. To my ears, in spaced pattern MK21 is a little dark, not that it isn't a very refined and beautiful capture. I would also suggest to the OP to try out Schoeps CMC6/MK5, this was my first high quality mic and it is very flexible.

[Plush]

I would definitely suggest a cardioid pair as a starter. For me that means Schoeps CMC 64 or Sennheiser MKH 8040 pair. Omni is only for very good rooms. Then practice using your stereo pair only for ten years.

[Don S]

Just a warning - you won't stop with just one pair! I have a pair of 8040's, MK4 and MK21. The 4006TL's are rumored to be fantastic. I would start with either mk4 or 21. It just depends on what type of work you're doing. I mostly record smaller chamber concerts, and 21's shine.

[dortola]

Originally Posted by Don S

Just a warning - you won't stop with just one pair! I have a pair of 8040's, MK4 and MK21. The 4006TL's are rumored to be fantastic. I would start with either mk4 or 21. It just depends on what type of work you're doing. I mostly record smaller chamber concerts, and 21's shine.

Thank you all for your comments. The cardiod pattern is something that I’m now considering seriously. Even though venues can have very good acoustics the placement of the mics (thanks boojum for mention that point) is sometimes an issue to the director, so cardioids can be a more flexible choice.
My problem is that I will not have the chance to try different mics. I live far away from the stores (I mean, in a different country) so I’ll buy from Ebay or any major music store, blind, just with your suggestions.
For what I’ve researched (including this thread) the Schoeps CMC64 or the Sennheisers 8040s are in the finals. DPAs seem to be out of my budget by now.
So please, if you have any more comments, they will be very helpfull.
Schoeps MK21 vs MK4 opinions are also welcome!
I still have time. I’ll be buying the mics in three or four weeks when I have the chance to travel to the States.
Thanks!

[jnorman]

i agree with the above posters that for your first mics, cardioids are probably a better choice than omnis. in your search, do not overlook the neumann km140s. i have owned pairs of DPA 4011s, schoeps cmc64s, and many other very nice SDCs, and IMO the km140s are the most musical mics i have used.

[sonare]

Different strokes-- I used to own a pair of 140s and several 184s. Over a period of time I noticed that they were the LAST mics I would pull out. I then tried the infamous and un-scientific "rattle the keys" test on my DPAs, Schoeps and SDC Neumanns. The DPAs and Schoeps sounded like keys. The SDC Neumanns sounded like breaking glass. I wish I still had my 84s to compare, but from what is available now I would choose either CMC64, DPA, or Senn 8040.

Rich

[RobAnderson]

MK21's are great, but are not as flexible as the cardioids.

I do like their "warmer" coloration, but you are limited to wide near-coincident techniques or AB arrays, and they are sometimes limited in their usefulness as close or spot mic's when isolation is a factor. On the other hand, they work well as spot mic's when greater "integration" is the goal.

For me the MK4, while sometimes is just slightly "thinner" sounding, is far more flexible in how and when it can be used.

[jnorman]

hi rich - oddly, i used to feel the same way. i had owned 3 pairs of km184s, using them as fairly close spot mics for studio sessions on a variety of winds and horns, piano, pedal harp, etc, and had fairly mixed results -they worked well on piano, harp, acoustic guitar, and other instruments which benefited from a bit of high end emphasis, but seemed a tad edgy on many winds and horns where you want to tame the high end somewhat.

however, as i started doing more remote work, and using NOS, ORTF, and other off-axis configurations at a greater mic distance, i found that the sound of the neummans started to become much more to my liking. as i went through other brands of mics, i found that i truly loved the accuracy and near-total transparency of the DPA 4011 - an amazing mid distance main pair in near coincident configurations. gluttony prompted me to buy a pair of schoeps cmc6/mk4's and i found that they were truly smooth and warm as a relatively close ORTF main pair, but became boomy as spot mics and became a bit dull if used at anything past about 10 feet.

later, after picking a used pair of akg c481s, i found that they sounded nearly identical to 4011s at half the price (i got my pair of 481s for $900). then i tried some AT4051s and found them to be competitive with the sound of the DPAs and schoeps. in fact, for a solo piano CD i did for a local artist, we wound up selecting the tracks from a pair of AT4051s over the pair of DPA 4011s, and a more distant pair of DPA 4006s, and used the 4051s for the CD.

i happened to pick up a pair of km140s for a ridiculous price, and started throwing them back into the mix doing comparative testing, and i found that when i used them right, i preferred them to everything else. there is no doubt that DPA, schoeps, gefell, sennheiser make fantastic microphones - all are of wonderful build quality and fairly distinctive sound character, though each seem to excell at slightly different things. it is just that, of all the sonic qualities of those mics, i tend to prefer the neumann sound.

i am just saying that lots of mics can sound pretty fantastic when used properly, and the selection between any of the major brands who make high-end professional products is really a matter of personal taste, and the decision should not be made based on someone else's opinion - you really should listen to the mics yourself. at least take advantage of the many comparative recordings available in some of the threads here on GS.

[mosrite]

I have the DPA 4006's (TL) and 4061's.

The 4061's are far too noisy for good quiet acoustic spaces. It never fails to amaze me how people can still recommend these mics for this kind of application. Great mics in many other respects but the OP is talking "main pair" and mentions that he will be recording in good and very good acoustics.

MK21 are my desert island mics. Not perfect for everything, but very useful in most situations.

Couldn't agree more. Never regretted that purchase.

MK21's are great, but are not as flexible as the cardioids.

Couldn't disagree more with the MK21's you have ORTF or similar and AB. You have a touch of rear rejection (good for rejecting the audience - they'll get over it..), AND, more importantly, you an increased frequency response and is able to capture a touch of that lower end "ommpff." I have to say that I have never wished I had the MK4's on a recording instead of the MK21's. You see in awful acoustics I wouldn't go for either of those mics anyway.....

[jnorman]

mosrite - inre: "The 4061's are far too noisy for good quiet acoustic spaces." - there are a lot of people who would argue this point. we are all aware that self noise increases as the diaphragm size decreases, and surely cmc62s, 4006s, 8020s, and km131s are definitely quieter than 4061s.

but, that said, i and many others have made some pretty spectacular sounding recordings with the miniature DPA omnis. there are a number of sample and comparative recordings here on GS to demonstrate that claim. i used 4061s for quite a while, and am now using a pair of 4090s as flanks for my main ORTF pair, and i love them. i have had no problem removing slight amounts of self noise via NR software, but generally i do not need to do so.

[mosrite]

but, that said, i and many others have made some pretty spectacular sounding recordings with the miniature DPA omnis. there are a number of sample and comparative recordings here on GS to demonstrate that claim. i used 4061s for quite a while, and am now using a pair of 4090s as flanks for my main ORTF pair, and i love them. i have had no problem removing slight amounts of self noise via NR software, but generally i do not need to do so.

I think it's great that the noise doesn't bother you. I actually wish it didn't bother me also as I could have a great pair of omnis for half the usual price.

Also, If possible could you direct me to one of those spectacular sounding recordings that you mention. For arguements sake I would like to hear just the 4060/61's as a main pair (no spots), in a decent acoustic and with no noise reduction processing after the recording.

[jnorman]

mosrite - try this one:
DPA4006 Decca Tree or DPA4060 ONNO, samples included

[mosrite]

Actually, don't worry about it. This has been a contentious issue for some time on this forum and it never seems to get resolved. No disrespect meant to anyone who stands by these mics, but I could never comprehend how any recording professional could hear that noise and be satisfied with it, except in very specific circumstances.

[amfortas2006]

Try the Gefell 900-series.
These are great, small, and quiet. Or the MK221 omni measurement microphone.

The ones you put on the list are also all great.

DPA4061 is really good, but as a main pair, especially if you will be recording at higher-noise venues, and recording quieter acoustical music they are a compromise.
I wouldn't hesitate using them if I didn't have a no-compromise pair.
And I did try mine lots of times along with my Schoeps for example

[chris319]

No love for MBHO?

[DannyL]

I am certainly in the minority here, but I really prefer the sound of the Schoeps to the DPA's. Actually I don't really like the DPA's, a least not their miniature capsule mics. In ORTF a pair of Schoeps CMC6's w/ Mk 4 these are very hard to beat. The omnis are also pretty good. I have heard the Sennheisers and have been favorably impressed.

I would seriously consider the ORTF route, which is very adaptable to the use of outriggers. If you can rent or borrow a pair of Mk 4's you maight like what you hear.

BTW as an inexpensive alternative the Countryman Isomax II series mics are quite impressive....very uncolored, quiet and accurate. Very good as outriggers and as a second pair. I have used mine for everything: spot mics on strings, saxes, main stereo pair, vocal mics, even as goal mics for soccer, and corner mics for ice hockey.

Regards;

Danny

Originally Posted by dortola

Hi! I’m in the process of buying my first pair of professional or high end mics.
Main use will be orchestral, choir or classical music recordings, in local theaters with good to very good acoustics.
I’d prefer to record just with one pair of mics, using the appropriate stereo technique for the venue, and sometimes I will use another pair as outriggers.
I’m looking for your advice and comments. My choices are:
- Schoeps CMC6 with omni capsules (Mk2 or Mk21?)
- DPAs 4006 (or 4007?)
- Sennheiser MKH 8020
Could you please share with me your experiences and advices?
Thanks!

[dortola]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

MK21's are great, but are not as flexible as the cardioids.

I do like their "warmer" coloration, but you are limited to wide near-coincident techniques or AB arrays, and they are sometimes limited in their usefulness as close or spot mic's when isolation is a factor. On the other hand, they work well as spot mic's when greater "integration" is the goal.

For me the MK4, while sometimes is just slightly "thinner" sounding, is far more flexible in how and when it can be used.

Rob, this is for you and the other guys who are helping me. A new model comes to my mind. What do you think about the Schoeps CCM4? Are they just MK4s with a long cable and a preamp at the end of it?

Thank you guys, I'm still learning from you!

[RobAnderson]

I don't own any of the CCM mic's, so I can't speak firsthand to how they compare with the Colette series sound-wise.

I think the CCM mic's are not modular, so unlike the Colette's, there is no separate capsule/mic body scheme. I think they are also more expensive than their Colette counterparts.

On the one hand, the CCM's are less obtrusive visually right out of the box, so if you are doing a lot of video work, this might be a factor. To accomplish the same thing with Colette's, you need to buy expensive cables.

On the other hand, the Colette's would be cheaper overall and allow greater flexibility for less cost, since you can buy a couple of CMC6 bodies and then buy whatever capsules you wish as you are able to afford them. To get another polar pattern with the CCM's, I think you have to buy a whole other microphone.

[boojum]

FWIW - My desert island rig would be the Schoeps CMC64's and an Sound Devices 722. ORTF cards are hard to beat, easy to set up, work well on lots of stuff and are pretty unobtrusive. Schoeps has a rep for giving a nice sheen to the music. I like mine plenty. And has been pointed out, additional caps can be added as needed.

But in good halls with great placement, omnis work so well. But it has to be a good space with good placement. That is not always possible.