I am beginning to hate ZOOM type chip recorders...

[Thomas W. Bethe]

It seems like a plague descending on to the remote recording world and it is getting worse not better.

We do on location video and audio recording but more and more parents seem to be getting these ZOOM type recorders to record their children in concerts and they want to tape them to our microphone stand. I have grandparents, parents and even other students with ZOOM type chip recorders wanting space on our mic stand. I am sorry but NOT on our mic stand. So they lay them on the stage or put them on the arm of one of the seats in the front row. The same with camcorders, cell phones and flash photography. It is starting to look like a Michael Jackson concert instead of a youth orchestra concert.

Anyone else seeing this happening?

[Insain]

"Accidentally" walk by when they lay them on the stage, . Ive noticed the ever-growing population of ZOOM as well. Just as well get used to it, becuase its not going away. If industries are selling things that the consumer can buy and "record" their children with, I can bet its not going away. Just remember, that You vs. Armrest Recording... is there really a chance of the armrest being good?

[Thomas W. Bethe]

No the armchair recoding are going to be bad. I don't have a problem with people wanting to record their children but I really don't want their chip recorders taped to my microphone stand. The last year a parent asked me if they could tap into our recording setup and do their own recording of the concert. Not something I really want to do so I said no "due to technical reasons" I assume they were somewhat upset. We also are getting people who want to "share" our tripod space for their video recording. If the concert is being recorded professionally then I fail to see why everyone has to do their own recording unless it is to feature their son or daughter. One of the Non Profits we work with has banned flash photography and will not let parents roam around the auditorium while the concert is going on. Some others we work with don't see this as a problem. I guess it is what everyone is doing now days. They want to "document" everything their child does from birth on. Kinda like the old bare bottom baby on the bearskin rug pictures that parents could show off to their friends and embarrass their children. Only now it is on video and audio as well as photography...

We have also had parents ask if we could supply them with the raw footage of the concerts so they can do their own editing and add in their own footage. Thankfully it is a contractual thing with the groups we record and so we can politely refuse.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by Insain

Just remember, that You vs. Armrest Recording... is there really a chance of the armrest being good?

That doesn't even matter. Not only can the average listener probably not tell, they also don't care.

[hughesmr]

I must be one of the lucky ones, as I don't see this very much (but I tend to do more collegiate/semipro/pro groups). That said, I would have absolutely no reservation about telling some random parents to bugger off my stand. No reason is necessary -- it's not their stand, so stay off of it. They're not allowed on stage during the performance, so this is just another rule.

I can think of plenty of reasons (bogus or otherwise) to give them if you feel you must. How about --

1. "This is a union mic stand. Are you in the union?"
2. "You should record from the best seat in the house. It's back there in row 15."
3. "The stand will block out part of the sound if you tape directly to it."

Any more?

[Plush]

Everywhere I record no other recordings are allowed. Ask for the same deal at your venues.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Plush

Everywhere I record no other recordings are allowed. Ask for the same deal at your venues.

Now that is a strong move! Way to go.

[scottwilson]

Sorry - why not on your mic stand?

You say it's parents, so I'm assuming you're recording somewhere that the school or organization is paying you to record for the benefit of that school or organization. That organization is likely supported in part or entirely by the parents paying tuition.

It seems like you might get better good will by saying - "Sure go ahead, but while you're at it, take my card. I'll have samples up on my website tomorrow if you're interested."

If they've invested in a portable, they're obviously interested in documenting their children's performance and those that are serious are likely to need more serious recordings later in life.

Just being devil's advocate as a parent.

[sailcat]

Concert taping is as old as the hills, and with all the new, affordable, and high-quality devices available, everyone's getting in the game. Parents have always brought their cameras, and now they've got other devices as well.

The problem's not really that they want to document their kid's performance. As long as there's no policy against it, it's their right and none of your business. The problem is that you're letting it get on your nerves and you don't have to.

Your equipment, and your access to the space as per your contract, are yours. No need to explain further, and your word is final. You're hired to make a professional recording, presumably for sale, and should have total control over that. If you think it interferes with your ability to deliver a quality product, or if you and your employer want exclusivity, then put explicit limits on the use of personal devices in your contract.

People are used to being told that flash photography, etc. are not allowed, and they are pretty compliant. If it's an issue that really bothers you, set limits, get them in writing, and enlist the help of your employer in enforcing them.

[Foldedpath]

Originally Posted by scottwilson

Sorry - why not on your mic stand?

(snip)

Just being devil's advocate as a parent.

Two reasons:

1) Liability exposure. Are they willing to be a co-defendant in a lawsuit, if the mic stand is knocked over and someone is injured? Same thing goes for Zoom recorders scattered around the performing area. If someone trips over one of these things and gets hurt, you could be roped into a lawsuit as the one "in charge." Saying "my insurance company won't allow it" is the easiest way to avoid these situations.

2) Loss of control. Do you want to risk having a parent leave halfway through the performance because their kid's part is over, and ripping the tape off your mic stand while you're still recording? Even if it's not taped or otherwise mounted to your stand, do you want people walking around, setting up and retrieving portable recorders anywhere near where your main pair is set up? This is another good reason for an "exclusion zone" around your professional gear, and again it can be justified on liability/insurance grounds.

It isn't easy, or practical, to stop people recording from their seats these days. Most any cell phone will do it, you don't need a Zoom recorder. But you should be able to establish and control your professional working area, as part of the contract for the gig, to limit liability problems and people messing with your gear.

[audibell]

Parents/volunteers are not as polite as you suggest - I've had them demand the use of another mic stand if the main stand obviously cannot accomodate their zoom.

The hired video guy comes in the green room and says "You're the audio guy, right, give me the audio feed please". To the people asking for access to raw footage later, try asking a wedding photographer for her negatives so you can photoshop your own images. A good answer, of course, is "No problem, how would you like to pay for that?"

Perhaps the proliferation of chip recorders at these community events is an opportunity to up-sell the use of mics already in position. 1stcome-1stserved into an output line-level, $50 a unit, sorry, no PayPal.
regds,
WalterT

[Corran]

Oh yeah, Thomas, are you selling the final recording at these events? If not, I wouldn't be worrying about it, except to have a clearly taped-off area to bar access to the main stand from all directions for 10 feet or whatever.

If you are, I would do as Plush says and ask the directors/et al to announce personal recordings are not allowed and that they can purchase one from you. And then if possible dissuade the parents from using them in their seats. Of course this is a tall order...

[character]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

We have also had parents ask if we could supply them with the raw footage of the concerts so they can do their own editing and add in their own footage. Thankfully it is a contractual thing with the groups we record and so we can politely refuse.

If you've got contracts with the clients, you could always have added into the contract that you won't assist with personal recordings. Let the venue decide if they want to allow personal recordings or not, but at least if they allow it, you won't have to share any resources to assist parents.

I also like the idea of giving your card so they can check out samples on your website - if they want better quality.

[Tommy-boy]

There is no way I'd let anybody tape anything to my mic stands. I often tape off a small space around the stand to prevent people from walking too close and bumping into it.

However, I wouldn't get mad at parents looking to get recordings of their own. I'd smile and make a suggestion on how they could best record the concert from a regular seat. I'd talk about how to steady the device to avoid handling noise, where to point it, etc... Echoing what others have said, I'd be passing out cards and talking your services up.

To offer a story on the other side of the fence....I recently went to a concert my child was in and recorded it. Normally, I'm engaged by the conductor to record these concerts. However, this was a band that combined multiple districts, and the other districts had their own guy on hand to do the formal recording. It was easy to bring my R-44. I just sat front center and held the R-44 steady and used the built in mics. Granted - using the built in mics didn't produce a stellar recording, but I did it because I'm a recording nut.

I chatted with the guy engaged to do the formal recording, checked out his gear and we compared some stories. And, I saved his rear because he was using an NT4 that was not even close to being pointed in the center (it was at least 30 degrees off). So I politely noted that it was off center and he thanked me and corrected it.

I purchased the formal recording this guy did. I just received it last night and will listen when I get home today. I'm kinda curious to see how it came out and I want to evaluate the elements of his recording chain (of which I made notes when I was at the concert). [edit - I listened to the CD. OK recording, but seemed bass light. Not sure if this was due to low end drop off of NT4 or maybe influenced by fact that he had his mic aimed out over the band, rather than pointing down at band.]

-Tom

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by scottwilson

Sorry - why not on your mic stand?

You say it's parents, so I'm assuming you're recording somewhere that the school or organization is paying you to record for the benefit of that school or organization. That organization is likely supported in part or entirely by the parents paying tuition.

It seems like you might get better good will by saying - "Sure go ahead, but while you're at it, take my card. I'll have samples up on my website tomorrow if you're interested."

If they've invested in a portable, they're obviously interested in documenting their children's performance and those that are serious are likely to need more serious recordings later in life.

Just being devil's advocate as a parent.

Someone already beat me to it but...I really don't want to be responsible for the Zoom recorders. If someone would take one off and crash my microphone stand who is going to pay for the microphones and there are the liability issues as well if it falls on someone. We are also video taping the concerts and lots of zoom recorders hanging on the stand won't make it look too attractive.

The groups we work for pay mechanical rights fees for the CDs we produce but if some parent puts up the audio, they recorded, on the WWW who is going to pay for that?

For now I will not allow the parents to put stuff on our microphone stand and if they want to lay them on the floor or on an armrest it is up to them.

I hope this is a "passing fad" but i fear it will still be around for a while. YUCK!

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Corran

Oh yeah, Thomas, are you selling the final recording at these events? If not, I wouldn't be worrying about it, except to have a clearly taped-off area to bar access to the main stand from all directions for 10 feet or whatever.

If you are, I would do as Plush says and ask the directors/et al to announce personal recordings are not allowed and that they can purchase one from you. And then if possible dissuade the parents from using them in their seats. Of course this is a tall order...

We give the masters to the groups. Once approved they have us duplicate them and they sell them to the parents. One of our groups does prohibit recording the other one pays lip service to the no recording idea but allows parents to do taping and filming as long as it does not interfere with the concert.

[Ozpeter]

Chief problem of that sort that I've encountered is pro musicians turning up with such gear and wanting a feed from my system - usually at the last minute. Tricky to argue with as they're the ones giving the performance, but none the less an unwelcome distraction. (Although they're going to get my recording in due course after post-production, they often want to hear an immediate playback in their hotel room prior to doing the same program somewhere else next day - I can see the need).

As for stuff fixed to mic stands - imho any visible recording equipment at a live concert detracts from the appearance of the stage and while stands are of course a necessary evil, adding anything more than is strictly required compounds the evil.

There are complex copyright issues involved and this perhaps should be the basis of refusal.

Other side of the coin - I started off recording my own school concerts and that's substantially how I ended up with a career in the recording business. Today's Zoom-wielders may be tomorrow's top engineers. It's good to see the ready availability of sound recording equipment after the hiatus during the demise of tape-based formats.

[brle]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

The same with camcorders, cell phones and flash photography.

Well, here is one nice example how to deal with it

YouTube - jarrett a umbria jazz 07

Sascha

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

Chief problem of that sort that I've encountered is pro musicians turning up with such gear and wanting a feed from my system - usually at the last minute. Tricky to argue with as they're the ones giving the performance, but none the less an unwelcome distraction. (Although they're going to get my recording in due course after post-production, they often want to hear an immediate playback in their hotel room prior to doing the same program somewhere else next day - I can see the need).

As for stuff fixed to mic stands - imho any visible recording equipment at a live concert detracts from the appearance of the stage and while stands are of course a necessary evil, adding anything more than is strictly required compounds the evil.

There are complex copyright issues involved and this perhaps should be the basis of refusal.

Other side of the coin - I started off recording my own school concerts and that's substantially how I ended up with a career in the recording business. Today's Zoom-wielders may be tomorrow's top engineers. It's good to see the ready availability of sound recording equipment after the hiatus during the demise of tape-based formats.

We use to do a lot of work for a local classical music station. Some of it was on location broadcasting of concerts or recitals. ISDN back to the station and record on location. At a string quartet recording and on air remote the 2nd violinist comes up to me and says "we don't like the hall we are playing in and we want you to add some reverb to the hall mix before it goes on the air and is recorded. This was about 5 minutes before the concert was scheduled to begin. Then the cellist comes over and asks for a feed for his Portable DAT recorder and the first violinist comes over to say that on his microphone he wants all the bass equalized out. This was all about 5 minutes before air time. We had just done an extensive sound check and now they wanted to change everything. The only person who did not have a request was the violist who seemed to be content just to play. I got the eq done quickly, I was able to hook up the DAT to the system (thankfully I came with extra cords as the cellist did not have any) and I was in the process of getting the reverb hooked up when we went on air. I did not use the reverb since it was not setup during the sound check and I did not want to "play with it" when we were on the air. After the concert I gave the group a CD of their performance. I also had one for myself and a copy for the radio station. Later that week the 2nd violinist called me up to complain that there was "too much reverb" on the CD. I just smiled.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Tommy-boy

There is no way I'd let anybody tape anything to my mic stands. I often tape off a small space around the stand to prevent people from walking too close and bumping into it.

-Tom

Amen! Especially during school or community events, I put a yellow triangle taped on the floor to warn people. I've had old ladies use my stand to haul themselves onto the stage!

[hbphotoav]

I had the same response a decade ago when digital photography with full-auto control that pretty much always worked made everyone and their sister into a "professional" photographer. I just needed to make sure my clients understood that what I brought to the party was more than just nice exposures. A real sense of craft and a real sense of getting the client not only what they want, but what they need has, so far, enabled a continuing profitable career in their service.

I don't do anywhere near as much recording, job-for-job, as photography and AV support, largely because I'm still very much learning the craft. I'm not interested in "throwing up a couple of mics and pressing REC" as that's what Zoom and TASCAM and Edirol have made their province. I may never be "good enough" to be principally a recordist... but I won't be satisfied until I have the chops.

I would, as I do with cousin Eddie and his new Canon wünder-clicker, be nice about doing what I can (although people wanting a hookup without proper cables and connectors are out of luck) short of attaching anything to my stand. My argument would be that my professional liability insurance covers only equipment that belongs to me.

It's hard for me to hate the bitbuckets, as I generally back-up my main rig to an Edirol R09HR...

HB

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by boojum

Now that is a strong move! Way to go.

This is standard procedure in pretty much all professional orchestral performances world wide. No photograpy, no recording.

[Richard Black]

A small but genuine point: if anyone asks you for a feed for their Zoom (etc.) you are not lying a bit when you decline 'for technical reasons'. Most of those devices can only handle 2V at line-in, 3V at best, and it's an unbalanced input on a 3.5mm jack. The parents in question won't have an XLR-3.5mm lead anyway, and if they do the output from most pro gear will nastily overload their recorder.

[Don S]

I tried putting -10dbv into my microtrack's unbalanced input. It sounded awful! I thought that's what those inputs were for. I guess most of the small recorders have problems. Not including nagra of course..

[Richard Black]

The only thing I can't stuff into the backpack is the stand.

Manfrotto makes a lighting stand which goes from backpack to 6ft-odd high. Weighs very little, has a 3/8 thread, doesn't cost a lot. Downside is it's a bit flimsy.

[RobAnderson]

As to the Zoom, is there a combo XLR/1/4" input? Sometimes, the XLR part is ONLY for mic level signals - all line level signals must use the 1/4-inch. I once learned this the hard way with an MBox.

[radeng]

Originally Posted by Richard Black

Manfrotto makes a lighting stand which goes from backpack to 6ft-odd high. Weighs very little, has a 3/8 thread, doesn't cost a lot. Downside is it's a bit flimsy.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Would it support the two 81's on the bar?

[Don S]

Originally Posted by boojum

I am not one to eschew political discussion. And I have passionate feelings on the subject of domestic (US) politics as well as international. But this is not the venue. I have seen other boards just explode over this. Please lets not have this wonderful board and forum disrupted by politics. I believe there is an area set aside on GS for non-technical discussion, such as politics.

Thanks.

Agreed - I removed it. Sorry!

[Don S]

Originally Posted by radeng

Thanks for the suggestion.

Would it support the two 81's on the bar?

81's are heavy compared to Schoeps, especially with the shure stereo "post". I would go for a lighter weight bar and you should be fine. A sandbag would help as well.

[audibell]

My Zooms work usefully with o/b pres and Shure attenuators, A15LA.
rgds,
WalterT