I am beginning to hate ZOOM type chip recorders...

[boojum]

The comparison between the DIY'ers and their recordings and the pro pulls reminds me of this old rant:

"Quality is like oats. If you want clean fresh oats you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisified with the oats which have already been through the horse, those come cheaper."

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by boojum

"Quality is like oats. If you want clean fresh oats you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisified with the oats which have already been through the horse, those come cheaper."

My new mantra.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

A couple of years back one parent thought he was going to make some extra money by selling copies of the concert to other parents. he would purchase a DVD and then make copies for others thereby taking sales away from the orchestra. We now have an FBI warning on the front of every DVD. Some parents still copy the DVDs for friends and family and they are basically stealing from the youth orchestra's money raising event.

As I'm sure the parents know the DVD sales are a fundraiser, it is really ridiculous they would persist in copying them. I have been lucky enough to not run into blatant copying...yet.

[chris319]

not everyone on this board is a professional...

I am in the middle between a hired recordist and the guy with a Zoom recorder. I am not a professional in the sense that I earn my living at it, but I apply professional standards to what I do and collaborate with the conductor who also manages the orchestra. If it weren't for me volunteering my time and equipment, there would be no recording because there is no budget for it. I'm also involved with sound reinforcement, something a guy with a Zoom recorder doesn't and can't go near.

[The Listener]

Originally Posted by radeng

Like I said elsewhere in this thread, the Zoom and it's ilk have their uses. As to something seriously better for recording those two guys, if you set up a C24/USM69/Soundfield, whatever into a Nagra or SD recorder, do you really think most people (i.e. your "simple clients") would not be able to hear the difference on a halfway decent audio system? Do you know how bad the THD on the Zoom is?

Do you want your legacy as a recording engineer to be represented by recordings made by one of these little jobbies?

I don't know - I agree that you can make audiophile live recordings that would be quite a bit more special than some low-budget gear recording, but for amateur performances that's hardly the need...

Of course I am pissing in your and also my own plate here, but in many cases I completely understand the desire of those parents and expectations of kids, friends, etc. to record it themselves and bring it home immediately and be able to post a video on Vimeo, Youtube, Facebook, whatever, and communicate through sound and picture IMMEDIATELY after the event... that's this desire they have and I support it - it is human, it is normal AND it is possible today...

Professional recording for some DVD, etc. still has it's place and I wouldn't let anyone interfere with my work process with their little recorder... I admire you who are polite enough to not "Fu--ck off" those guys approaching you in the midst of the life event you record.

But for the example I posted (those two guys on mandolin and guitar) I doubt anyone would notice some big difference if you would record it with some higher end equipment - especially when I see people on this forum confusing above 3k soundcards with a below 1k soundcards (the infamous Orpheus vs. Steinberg thread...)

In that case I posted they pulled off a quality stunt with cheap equipment and (I don't know if you'll agree) I manage to do that on occasion, too - you can check two audio examples of Zoom H4n in action when the organizers didn't have separate budget for the recording, but wanted to record the event anyway - so I hooked the little thing to FOH console and recorded simultaneously the live mix and the ambient sound with its internal mics from ca.50m away. They were more than satisfied with the results and if I brought separate preamps, laptop, splitters and mics, they would not have noticed the difference, especially when it would end up on Myspace, Youtube or Vimeo as most things are viewed now. Mostly people don't even have a decent hi-fi system and viewing/listening on laptops is most common...

As for those clips of mine - no additional mix was possible, only some "mastering" and combining of FOH mix and H4n mics ambient recording... I've heard worse life recordings from our national broadcasting house with all their Schoeps, Neumanns, latest digital Studer boards, etc. stuff.

As for the "legacy" - there are things that deserve to become legacy and there are things that just need to be preserved as a souvenir - as most amateur performances are.

I didn't want to insult anyone, but I understand why people want to record themselves and bring home THEIR recording, I also see justified cases when to use the cheap portable devices and I use them myself on occasion, but I would also not bother with anyone asking to record something when I would do serious recording myself - let them record any way they can, but not using my space and time.

[radeng]

Originally Posted by The Listener

A there are things that deserve to become legacy and there are things that just need to be preserved as a souvenir - as most amateur performances are.

I treat every event I am doing audio engineering at as if it were going to end up on the radio or on a CD. Just the way I roll.

Your clips sound OK. I do hear a bit of edginess to them, which may be due to something other than the cheap recorder, but I doubt that.

Thanks to the member who posted the DIY pad link. Yesterday I built two -40 db pads to use with the H4n. Levels from the console's +4 program outputs now are in a reasonable zone. I'm still not thrilled about going through the crappy mic preamps, but since stupid Zoom dropped the line inputs from the feature set, there is no choice. What idiot bean counter made that decision?

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by The Listener

I don't know - I agree that you can make audiophile live recordings that would be quite a bit more special than some low-budget gear recording, but for amateur performances that's hardly the need...

Of course I am pissing in your and also my own plate here, but in many cases I completely understand the desire of those parents and expectations of kids, friends, etc. to record it themselves and bring it home immediately and be able to post a video on Vimeo, Youtube, Facebook, whatever, and communicate through sound and picture IMMEDIATELY after the event... that's this desire they have and I support it - it is human, it is normal AND it is possible today...

Professional recording for some DVD, etc. still has it's place and I wouldn't let anyone interfere with my work process with their little recorder... I admire you who are polite enough to not "Fu--ck off" those guys approaching you in the midst of the life event you record.

But for the example I posted (those two guys on mandolin and guitar) I doubt anyone would notice some big difference if you would record it with some higher end equipment - especially when I see people on this forum confusing above 3k soundcards with a below 1k soundcards (the infamous Orpheus vs. Steinberg thread...)

In that case I posted they pulled off a quality stunt with cheap equipment and (I don't know if you'll agree) I manage to do that on occasion, too - you can check two audio examples of Zoom H4n in action when the organizers didn't have separate budget for the recording, but wanted to record the event anyway - so I hooked the little thing to FOH console and recorded simultaneously the live mix and the ambient sound with its internal mics from ca.50m away. They were more than satisfied with the results and if I brought separate preamps, laptop, splitters and mics, they would not have noticed the difference, especially when it would end up on Myspace, Youtube or Vimeo as most things are viewed now. Mostly people don't even have a decent hi-fi system and viewing/listening on laptops is most common...

As for those clips of mine - no additional mix was possible, only some "mastering" and combining of FOH mix and H4n mics ambient recording... I've heard worse life recordings from our national broadcasting house with all their Schoeps, Neumanns, latest digital Studer boards, etc. stuff.

As for the "legacy" - there are things that deserve to become legacy and there are things that just need to be preserved as a souvenir - as most amateur performances are.

I didn't want to insult anyone, but I understand why people want to record themselves and bring home THEIR recording, I also see justified cases when to use the cheap portable devices and I use them myself on occasion, but I would also not bother with anyone asking to record something when I would do serious recording myself - let them record any way they can, but not using my space and time.

Lots of good thoughts. One problem is that there are things like mechanical licenses that the groups we record for have to pay for if they do DVDs or CDs but the parent does not. The parents are oblivious to mechanical license fees or the need to get them BEFORE posting their child's work on the WWW especially if they are playing a copyrighted work. Probably never going to come up but...

If people want to record a performance of their child I say go for it if the venue and the organization says it is OK. Just don't try to mount things to my stands, get in the way of my videographer or ask for last minute audio feeds when you don't bring any patch cords to the event. I am working and I am not there to chit chat so if you want to talk to me do it at intermission or after the concert and if I look busy respect that I am getting paid for doing the concert and am NOT getting paid for talking to a audiophile/videophile parent.

Yesterday we recorded a youth choir. On the program it said No Audio/ Video recording. It also said no flash photography. Guess what a lady to rows up from us brought in her video camera and a tripod, two rows down from us a person was taking flash pictures and I saw a lot of people taking flash photographs with their cell phones. No one said anything but it was disrespectful of the children and other members of the audience. These two people were the only ones I saw directly but I did see a lot of flashes going off continuously. One guy was trying to get his offspring's attention. he looked more like he was the LSO (Landing Signal Officer) on the deck of an aircraft carried waving his hands stuffed with two programs trying to attract his child's attention. This was in the middle of the concert and in middle of the house. Where were these people raised???

This whole documentation of everything their child does seems to be getting worse and more and more parents are doing it. If they want to do it GREAT just don't mess up my professional recording of the event.

MTCW and YMMV

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Lots of good thoughts. One problem is that there are things like mechanical licenses that the groups we record for have to pay for if they do DVDs or CDs but the parent does not. The parents are oblivious to mechanical license fees or the need to get them BEFORE posting their child's work on the WWW especially if they are playing a copyrighted work. Probably never going to come up but...

If people want to record a performance of their child I say go for it if the venue and the organization says it is OK. Just don't try to mount things to my stands, get in the way of my videographer or ask for last minute audio feeds when you don't bring any patch cords to the event. I am working and I am not there to chit chat so if you want to talk to me do it at intermission or after the concert and if I look busy respect that I am getting paid for doing the concert and am NOT getting paid for talking to a audiophile/videophile parent.

Yesterday we recorded a youth choir. On the program it said No Audio/ Video recording. It also said no flash photography. Guess what a lady to rows up from us brought in her video camera and a tripod, two rows down from us a person was taking flash pictures and I saw a lot of people taking flash photographs with their cell phones. No one said anything but it was disrespectful of the children and other members of the audience. These two people were the only ones I saw directly but I did see a lot of flashes going off continuously. One guy was trying to get his offspring's attention. he looked more like he was the LSO (Landing Signal Officer) on the deck of an aircraft carried waving his hands stuffed with two programs trying to attract his child's attention. This was in the middle of the concert and in middle of the house. Where were these people raised???

This whole documentation of everything their child does seems to be getting worse and more and more parents are doing it. if they want to do it GREAT just don't mess up my professional recording of the event.

MTCW and YMMV

I subscribe to the "broken windows" model of law enforcement. If you stop the problems when they are small they will rarely grow to be big problems. The house has to be swift and sure in stopping these people who violate house rules, even the smallest infraction. After the word is out that the rules are enforced, and swiftly and the offenders ejected, I bet the problem will disappear. But the house has to act. Why print rules that are not enforced??? If you try to please everyone you wind up pleasing no one. My $0.02.

[The Listener]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Lots of good thoughts. One problem is that there are things like mechanical licenses that the groups we record for have to pay for if they do DVDs or CDs but the parent does not. The parents are oblivious to mechanical license fees or the need to get them BEFORE posting their child's work on the WWW especially if they are playing a copyrighted work. Probably never going to come up but...

If people want to record a performance of their child I say go for it if the venue and the organization says it is OK. Just don't try to mount things to my stands, get in the way of my videographer or ask for last minute audio feeds when you don't bring any patch cords to the event. I am working and I am not there to chit chat so if you want to talk to me do it at intermission or after the concert and if I look busy respect that I am getting paid for doing the concert and am NOT getting paid for talking to a audiophile/videophile parent.

Yesterday we recorded a youth choir. On the program it said No Audio/ Video recording. It also said no flash photography. Guess what a lady to rows up from us brought in her video camera and a tripod, two rows down from us a person was taking flash pictures and I saw a lot of people taking flash photographs with their cell phones. No one said anything but it was disrespectful of the children and other members of the audience. These two people were the only ones I saw directly but I did see a lot of flashes going off continuously. One guy was trying to get his offspring's attention. he looked more like he was the LSO (Landing Signal Officer) on the deck of an aircraft carried waving his hands stuffed with two programs trying to attract his child's attention. This was in the middle of the concert and in middle of the house. Where were these people raised???

This whole documentation of everything their child does seems to be getting worse and more and more parents are doing it. If they want to do it GREAT just don't mess up my professional recording of the event.

MTCW and YMMV

Actually I was a bit of a jerk with my first reaction in this thread... maybe a knee-jerk reaction to seeing "Zoom-type" recorders which I use on occasion and also many of my friends musicians or their family and friends use to document their rehearsals, gigs, etc.

It is also not so grave here by us, in a bit more fancy and serious halls there are no distractions, people would be ashamed to take flash pictures (or taking pictures during music at all) at classical concerts, but at jazz, world, rock, they usually take more liberty - but even there - if it's a less amplified and more "serious" concert it is known what is appropriate and what not and in general the public behaves well - chatting can be a bigger problem at some jazz concerts.

I don't deal with kid concerts, so I wouldn't know how it is, but in the case of one rather famous youth choir they have very serious concerts and their parents wouldn't think of doing some noise or other distraction during the performance. Their concerts are also documented by their sound guy who is my colleague and the local TV crew who provides video, and I've only seen some parents record with iphones and similar devices, but in a rather non-distracting manner and occasionally some friend or some singers want to hear what they did in advance (before the official DVD) and they place "Zoom-like recorders" on the floor before the first row... And the ones shooting video were also always rather non-intrusive, so I don't have a negative experience, yet, and therefore don't understand the situation as so grave, yet. I hope it won't change for the worse.

[Remoteness]

This is why I love this forum...

I mean, where else would you get this sort of discussion without all the (extra) drama?