Orchestral Recording in a Church - Need Ideas

[Liquid Shadow]

A colleague of mine is performing Brahms 1st Piano Concerto with a small orchestra in a church in May and would like me to record it. I thought I'd get a head start on planning the specifics.

Here are the mics I have:

Studio Projects C4 SDC pair
Studio Projects B3 LDC
Audix i5 x2
Audix D4

I guess the dynamic mics are useless in this case. I know many people here use a main pair plus outriggers, but since I don't have that many mics, I'm thinking about using the Jecklin disk approach, I've had great success with the Jecklin disk with string quartets.

Although I have some cash currently and am thinking about getting a pair of Cascade Fat Head II ribbons, should I incorporate them or should I get something else? Or should I just keep it simple and do the Jecklin disk?

Thanks in advance.

[andersmv]

Although I can think of two times that I've used ribbon mics to record an orchestral concert, I would not really consider using them as my main mics. I was using them as close mics on some of the upright basses and cellos to add a little low end to the mix.

If it's in a church, chances are the acoustics are probably decent, so you probably want to use something with an omni pattern if you have it, I hardly ever use figure 8 when doing concerts. Plus, Brahms 1st has some crazy dynamics in it, it starts out really quiet for like a minute and then explodes and goes back and forth. Unless you have a nice, clean preamp with a lot of gain, that's another reason ribbon mics would be out of the picture. In my opinion, I would not consider using a ribbon. But, if anyone disagrees I would like to hear some benefits.

[Liquid Shadow]

Originally Posted by andersmv

Although I can think of two times that I've used ribbon mics to record an orchestral concert, I would not really consider using them as my main mics. I was using them as close mics on some of the upright basses and cellos to add a little low end to the mix.

If it's in a church, chances are the acoustics are probably decent, so you probably want to use something with an omni pattern if you have it, I hardly ever use figure 8 when doing concerts. Plus, Brahms 1st has some crazy dynamics in it, it starts out really quiet for like a minute and then explodes and goes back and forth. Unless you have a nice, clean preamp with a lot of gain, that's another reason ribbon mics would be out of the picture. In my opinion, I would not consider using a ribbon. But, if anyone disagrees I would like to hear some benefits.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah I'm not planning on using the ribbons for this recording. I would like to get them just to expand my mic locker. The Studio Project C4s have omni capsules. So I guess I should just stick with the Jecklin disk with the C4s with omni capsules.

[jnorman]

if you can manage 4 tracks, you could try an ORTF pair of your B3's along with the C4's as omni flanks. the ORTF pair gives you nice clean soundstage and LR imaging while the omnis can add depth, width, and ambience - blend as needed during post.

[amfortas2006]

Or you could buy the ribbons and put them in a additional Blumlein setup if you have 4 inputs and decide later what to keep. Ya never know
win-win

[Liquid Shadow]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Clarification: I only have one B3, so I can't do an ORTF pair.

I have a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 interface with 8 very clean preamps, so I'm not short on inputs.

I definitely want to use my jecklin disk setup as the main pair, maybe I can use the ribbons some other way beside Blumlein?

[amfortas2006]

Originally Posted by Liquid Shadow

I have a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 interface with 8 very clean preamps, so I'm not short on inputs.

I definitely want to use my jecklin disk setup as the main pair, maybe I can use the ribbons some other way beside Blumlein?

Can't think of a thing in classical music I would use them on except Blumlein. But there are people with more experience then me who can say more about it. Flute maybe, or something else that can be harsh at close distance (spots) - maybe a trumpet or a violinist with a harsher technique ?..?
Don't think that I would ever try them on a piano..

I always prefered SDC-s on classical music because of their precision in recreating the original sound.
If you ever listen to some side by side comparisons of ribbons and SDC-s, and there are a few on Gearslutz (classical guitar...), you can decide yourself.

[Liquid Shadow]

I think I'm going to set up my jecklin disk, AND the Blumlein pair of ribbon mics. I would like to try Blumlein because I never owned 2 figure-8 mics and it would be a valuable experience, even if I don't end up using the take.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by Liquid Shadow

Studio Projects C4 SDC pair
Studio Projects B3 LDC
Audix i5 x2
Audix D4

Originally Posted by Liquid Shadow

I definitely want to use my jecklin disk setup as the main pair, maybe I can use the ribbons some other way beside Blumlein?

You will probably need a piano spot (or pair). Ribbons can be nice as string spots, especially violas, keeping the brass in the nulls. Or they can be used as brass and woodwind spots keeping out the strings. However, I'd probably go for another pair of SDCs.
A church can have great acoustics, or it can be way too reverberant and muddy. Often churches tend to prefer the brass, and then it's time to use fig-8 mics for strings.

D4: I've used a dynamic as double bass spot once (was the only mic left...) and was surprised. Might be worth a try, a double bass spot doesn't need to be the most hi-fi sound, it's there just for a little bow noise and "definition".

[Liquid Shadow]

Mmmm definitely something to think about. The jecklin disk would be dead center, basically in front of the piano, so I don't think I would want a pair of spot mics for the piano. Maybe I can flank the jecklin with the 2 ribbons? So one will cover the violins and the other cellos/basses? I'm also worried about phase issues, I probably won't have a chance to even do a proper sound check.

Also since this is a public performance, I don't want to disturb the performance with a bunch of mic stands right in front of the orchestra.

Thanks for the ideas man.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by Liquid Shadow

The jecklin disk would be dead center, basically in front of the piano,

...but surely higher to get the musicians who sit behind the piano, and to not overemphasize first stands.
If you want to get the overall orchestra well-balanced, you need to go high. You want to place those mics somewhere near the critical distance. Unfortunately, the critical distance for a piano can be way smaller than for an orchestra. That's why you need to either spot the piano or section mike the orchestra.

so I don't think I would want a pair of spot mics for the piano. Maybe I can flank the jecklin with the 2 ribbons? So one will cover the violins and the other cellos/basses? I'm also worried about phase issues, I probably won't have a chance to even do a proper sound check.

You can do about everything that you think gets you the sound you want. Why not flanks. They will widen the overall image, and get you more of the strings if placed right. By angling down you can control the string/winds/brass balance.
But: if you start spotting the left and right, you'll start to miss the violas in the middle, then you spot them, then you think the outer winds and brass are too distant so you spot those too, and then the timpani will want a spot too. There you go, 10 inputs, 2 more than you have.
You WILL need some kind of sound check. Don't they have some kind of rehearsal in that space? Not necessarily a run-through. How would you estimate where to put that main pair? Without a chance to listen to, and if necessary reposition, the main pair or system, the only safe way would be multi-miking EVERYTHING (resulting in 20 to 40 tracks) - and still the outcome would be inferior to a well-placed main system except if that "alibi" pair hit the right place by chance.

Also since this is a public performance, I don't want to disturb the performance with a bunch of mic stands right in front of the orchestra.

A piano spot can be kept quite low (just peeping over the frame's edge can work quite well as a spot mic). String spots can't.

[Liquid Shadow]

Totally, the mics will definitely be set pretty high and angled down.

With the main jecklin pair, I don't have it too close to the piano as I don't want it to act as a piano spot. Although it's a piano concerto, I don't want the piano sticking out too much, I still want it to blend with the orchestra.

As far as the inputs are concerned, I won't run out because I don't have that many mics! haha. Although I did have this idea, instead of normal piano spot, why not use my SP B3 mic under the piano on the soundboard for some extra resonance and warmth? Or I can use it as a spot mic on the piano like 4 feet away from the lid.

I'm still worried about phase issues though with multi-mic setups like this.