Recording pipe organ and trumpet...tips?

[SynthLine09]

I am recording a very good friend of mines graduate trumpet recital next month, and am wanting some advice as I will not have a lot of attempts to test different mic placements or techniques.

There will be a concerto with a small chamber orchestra (which will be so fun to record!) along with some unaccompanied and piano stuff. But I really don't know how to approach the organ! Unfortunately the organ in the hall is locked (its one of those gigantic 4 story million dollar+organs...) and i have no idea how to approach recording it?

Should I just use the ORTF pair out in the hall that I was using for the onstage stuff and hope for the best?

[king2070lplaya]

Alot of the pipe organ sound comes from how the organ interacts with the room, so you may want to think about adding a second pair high up and further out in the hall. Spaced omnis work well for this sort of thing. Listen to Hakan Hardenberger's "Prieres Sans Paroles" cd with Simon Preston for an EXCELLENT example of what this ensemble should sound like.

One tip, from experience, if you have a chance make sure to find a place with good balance between the instruments. Make sure to sound check at low and high dynamic levels to check this.

Best of luck, this is my favorite ensemble to play in! What pieces are being performed on the recital?

[John Willett]

I would use a single pair of SDC omnis - possibly in a Jecklin or Schneider Disk.

Get the balance by placement in the room.

[SynthLine09]

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya

Alot of the pipe organ sound comes from how the organ interacts with the room, so you may want to think about adding a second pair high up and further out in the hall. Spaced omnis work well for this sort of thing. Listen to Hakan Hardenberger's "Prieres Sans Paroles" cd with Simon Preston for an EXCELLENT example of what this ensemble should sound like.

One tip, from experience, if you have a chance make sure to find a place with good balance between the instruments. Make sure to sound check at low and high dynamic levels to check this.

Best of luck, this is my favorite ensemble to play in! What pieces are being performed on the recital?

Thanks for the tip! I love Hakan, I'll give it a listen. I've got a pair of cardiods, and a single omni. Maybe I'll expiriment with it in the hall and try some M/S as well.

She'll be playing the Haydn concerto with chamber orchestra (amazed she was able to get that many people together!) an arrangment of Rhapsody in Blue for trumpet and piano, some unaccompanied pieces (by Turin, maybe?) and I'm not sure what the organ piece is. I am looking forward to it though, she is really a fantastic trumpet player so it should make my job easy

[CAT5]

To maybe make it easier for you; MS never really worked for me on organ. I made hundreds of organ recordings and a large AB almost always works. An organ is a strange instrument when it comes to stereo. Never mic it to close, work with the space. Take a high stand with you (think 5 to 7 metres high) and a nice pair of omnis.

[SynthLine09]

The problem is I don't have a high stand, or a pair of omni's! There is a high balcony I can put some mic's on, maybe I'll try a stereo pair there

I should mention before my credibility is questioned- I am doing this for free as she was going to do it with her zoom h2 otherwise. So I've got to work with what I've got.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by SynthLine09

The problem is I don't have a high stand, or a pair of omni's!

You don't necessarily need a high stand. The organ should be voiced for people listening, and that's a metre or two from the floor, so a normal stand should be OK.

But listen carefully with your ears as you place the mics and move as necessary.

If you don't use omnis, pure pressure microphones, you will lose the bottom end of the organ. A good omni will go down to around 10Hz, a directional mic. starts rolling off the bass at 50 or 60Hz. I think the lowest note of a pipe organ is 16Hz.

[heva]

A 16foot organ stop goes down to about 30Hz, if there's a 32foot stop, that will go down to 16Hz.

A good trick to placement comes from Scott Dorsey: walk in the room and listen with one ear closed to where the balance between direct and reverberant pleases you; put your mics there.

[SynthLine09]

Thank you all for the suggestions.

As mentioned I do have a single omni. I'll find a way to implement it in the setup somehow. I don't think the organ is going to be particularly loud as it is accompanying a trumpet. I imagine it will only be using a few softer stops

[Howie J]

As another trumpet player.....is it on Bb, C or picc?? I would find out what the piece is. I started a project to record some wedding type stuff with picc and organ (Joyous/Classic wedding) and even as a fairly experienced player I couldn't believe that a picc could come screaming out over an organ....even with some heavy stops. (The guy I was playing with loved his Bombarde style stops in the pedals) There is a mile of difference between Barque picc and Prayer of St. Gregory.

Howie J

[SynthLine09]

Thats a good question. There will be b-flat, and e-flat on others. I suspect the organ stuff might be picc, but I'll ask tomorrow. Those things can be monstrously bright

[SynthLine09]

Originally Posted by Howie J

As another trumpet player.....is it on Bb, C or picc?? I would find out what the piece is. I started a project to record some wedding type stuff with picc and organ (Joyous/Classic wedding) and even as a fairly experienced player I couldn't believe that a picc could come screaming out over an organ....even with some heavy stops. (The guy I was playing with loved his Bombarde style stops in the pedals) There is a mile of difference between Barque picc and Prayer of St. Gregory.

Howie J

Funny you should mention Prayer of St. Gregory, thats actually whats shes playing.

[SynthLine09]

Heres a sample of the run-through from the recital boards. Sounds great to me. I used a pair of NT5's in ortf, and used a single omni farther out in the hall where I thought the organ sounded nice. I'm very happy with this recording, but of course would love to hear your comments.

Starts with a louder organ passage, goes to a softer organ passage, and trumpet comes in at the end.

[mathieujm]

It's nice.

Just two points where it could have been better :
- It seems we lack some bass from the organ, but it could be the organ hitself, not the mics
- Too much direct sound from the trumpet. It seems the mics were too much in front of the trumpet. The organ is very distant and the trumpet very nearby. It's not very good to create the unity.

JMM

[Don S]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

It's nice.

Just two points where it could have been better :
- It seems we lack some bass from the organ, but it could be the organ hitself, not the mics
- Too much direct sound from the trumpet. It seems the mics were too much in front of the trumpet. The organ is very distant and the trumpet very nearby. It's not very good to create the unity.

JMM

Yes, I hear the same things. I suspect a pair of omnis (outriggers) will fill out the low end and diffuse the trumpet direct bell sound.

[SynthLine09]

Originally Posted by Don S

Yes, I hear the same things. I suspect a pair of omnis (outriggers) will fill out the low end and diffuse the trumpet direct bell sound.

Unfortunately I do not have a pair of omni's, only a single one. Again I am doing this project for one of my best friends for free, so I sadly don't have a huge budget.

I agree that the low end lacks a bit in the organ, mostly during the louder sections. Some of this might be the hall, and might have been the acoustic settings (low drapes) in the hall, I'm not sure.

Regarding the balance of the trumpet and organ, the trumpet was already about 15 feet off to one side. I think this captured the balance between the two accurately. I rather don't mind it though since the trumpet sounds so wonderful.

I'll see if I can find a way to cleverly mic the organ a little better