big band jazz - brass solos

[plus6vu]

I do a number of live big band jazz recordings a year. I've used a number of SDCs and LDCs to SM57's or whatever the house provides, but I'd like to know what other folks are using for brass solos. I'd like something fairly durable. I really like the sound of some of the more expensive LDCs, but I don't want to put a $1000+ mic on the stage. (Nor do I want to have to buy 3-4 of them.)

What say you?

Scott

[sonare]

Most microphones that folks consider SERIOUS are over $1k ea, so unless you are having jello fights on stage I do not understand your aversion to use good mics-- which are usually fairly durable-- whatever that means.

BTW the Jazz at Lincoln Center big band uses TLM170s for brass solos--as I recall.

Rich

[hbphotoav]

The SM57s of ribbon world are Cascade Fat Heads (which I own) and ShinyBox and their ilk (which I do not own). Less than $200 each. More durable than you might expect. They're not Coles or AEA or Royer or even BeyerDynamic (I do not own Coles, AEA or Royer, but do own Beyer, and have used Royer, which are noticeably better, IMO, but also 3x-10x the price), but, with the exception of choral work (not enough sibilant clarity at distance with a Blumlein pair), I've not yet been disappointed...

HB

[avebr]

One very inexpensive suggestion, but that can give great sound is using Oktava's LDCs. I can speak for myself, about both the original Oktava MK-219 and MJ's moded MK-219PE - they sound great for sections, 2 players or solo - brasses, saxes; even french horn, clarinets, bassoon, oboe.

Just be carefull that their cardioid figure is more open and 'generous'! The original ones' are more darker/vintage, while the moded ones are more open and clear.


all the best,
ave.

[plus6vu]

Originally Posted by sonare

Most microphones that folks consider SERIOUS are over $1k ea, so unless you are having jello fights on stage I do not understand your aversion to use good mics-- which are usually fairly durable-- whatever that means.

BTW the Jazz at Lincoln Center big band uses TLM170s for brass solos--as I recall.

Rich

Like everyone, my aversion is the price. I don't want to lay out another $3k-$4k on mics if I don't have to. I do everything from pro groups to college to high schools and you would be surprised at how disrespectful or just plain gear ignorant any of those people can be.

"Oops, I don't mean to knock over your mic, what's that cost two? Three hundred bucks?" "You know, that looks just like my (insert name of cheap Chinese knock-off here)."

Maybe that doesn't happen where you live, but it happens where I live. Not often, but often enough. Now, if I need something like that for a serious session, I'll rent or borrow it. But for everyday use, less has sufficed and it will again.

I have a couple of Beyer ribbons that I like a lot, but I on location usually have to share feeds with the PA guy and they'll whine about the low output going to their not-so-high-end mixer. I try to stay away from them except in sessions.

What is output of the Fatheads like? Say compared to an SM57? I've looked at those, especially the ones with the better t'formers, but I don't know anyone that's tried them.

I'm also curious about the Heil offerings. I've heard a few good rumblings in articles, but none first hand.

Thanks again, all.
S

[EV676]

I had a pair of the Cascade Fatheads with the Cinemag transformers and they are excellent. Just enough gain to drive a Mackie VLZ-3 (the better pre-amp kind) or even an old Yamaha O2R that I have to use regularly. They will work on brass. I sold my pair because I didn't have that much use for them.
(I do a fair amount of live TV and audio post).

I like the Heil microphones because they do have strong output. I sense they are also brighter (a PR 40 has more of an upper mid punch than the EV RE-20 which it's modeled after). If I need a dynamic for a voice-over, I'll use a PR-40. I want to get a couple of PR-22s and see how they stack up against a Beta 58A or an EV 767 Ndym.

In my experience the Beta and the EV would work if you were spot micing brass.

We're neighbors. You're in Ennis and I'm in Dallas.

[Remoteness]

There are many great sounding mics out there, but they usually cost more than a SM57 I'm afraid...

If you're really concern about spending another $3k-$4k on mics why not just buy a few SM57s or SM58s and be done with it?

I reached this concussion because many inexpensive 'good sounding' mics are just as fragile as the expensive ones, so you're still in a place you don't want to be in.

[audibell]

I hear you and with mosh pit recordings, you have to have a B-team set of gear. As Steve said, 57s and 58s are your friends here, along with robust but ultimately disposable mic cables. The good stuff goes out to churches, theaters & auditoriums but the bar/clubs with cigarette butts, cola syrup, beer and snot all over the stage is not the place for canare star quads and large ribbon motors. There's a reason those 1950s Shures were encased inside 10lbs of polished aircraft aluminum.

Mic placement and bleed/null control is more readily apparent in a live club setting than the difference between a fathead, a 57 or an r121. Back in the day maybe the Cotton Club crowd were more respectful of rca ribbons but not so today.

When I use ribbons on a big band in a theater, I don't split them to the foh; they go back to my pres direct and the house can have a line level Y out if it's important to them. I don't mind sharing anything else at mic level, just not ribbons. Same thing goes for opera-under-the-oaks; condensors don't tolerate much humidity or rain, so why sacrifice a ksm44 or a 414 when a rode or oktava in a fur hat will get you there. A 58, 12 inches off-axis from a finely played tpt can be a beautiful thing.

rgds
WalterT

[amanitas]

Agree on TLM170 - most excellent microphone for recording brass. But also expensive.

One thing that might be worth a shot is the Beyerdynamic M88 - sounds awesome on trumpet, not much more expensive than a 57, built like a tank.

This is the mic I bring with me when I go on tour to avoid getting stuck with a Sennheiser 609 =)

[plus6vu]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

There are many great sounding mics out there, but they usually cost more than a SM57 I'm afraid...

If you're really concern about spending another $3k-$4k on mics why not just buy a few SM57s or SM58s and be done with it?

I reached this concussion because many inexpensive 'good sounding' mics are just as fragile as the expensive ones, so you're still in a place you don't want to be in.

Like everyone, I'm looking for the magic elixer.

I don't particularly like the sound of the Shures, though I've gotten great sounds from them. For horn players, I think it's a good mic with good players (but then good players sound good with about any mic). In those situations, I don't mind putting up a more $$ mic. They usually are more respectful. But weaker players like college kids don't seem to fair well with the Shure.

Don't get me wrong, I have a few Shures and I'm not afraid to use them!

Scott

[plus6vu]

Originally Posted by audibell

I hear you and with mosh pit recordings, you have to have a B-team set of gear. As Steve said, 57s and 58s are your friends here, along with robust but ultimately disposable mic cables. The good stuff goes out to churches, theaters & auditoriums but the bar/clubs with cigarette butts, cola syrup, beer and snot all over the stage is not the place for canare star quads and large ribbon motors. There's a reason those 1950s Shures were encased inside 10lbs of polished aircraft aluminum.

Fortunately, I don't do club gigs. These are all in auditoriums and non-smoking/drinking environments. I've done the club gigs. No more if I can eat without them.

Originally Posted by audibell

... why sacrifice a ksm44 or a 414 when a rode or oktava in a fur hat will get you there. A 58, 12 inches off-axis from a finely played tpt can be a beautiful thing.

rgds
WalterT

Exactly, but I'm not familiar with the Rode or Octava offerings as much and don't have a way to audition them. I'm looking to hear more about them.

Scott

[Jungle Jazz]

What about some Neumann TLM102s? Not as cheap as a 57, but much less than $1K.

[Jungle Jazz]

...or if you are trying to stay within a very low budget, and you know you want an LDC, you could try the CAD M179.

[David Rick]

Originally Posted by plus6vu

I'm not familiar with the Rode or Octava offerings as much and don't have a way to audition them. I'm looking to hear more about them.

I bought several Rode NT2A's for a project once, and now they're sitting neglected in the bottom of the locker because my typical chamber music gigs use pricey small diaphragms. The Rode's are very colored off-axis, but so are many well-regarded LDC's. I'm thinking brass solos might be a good use for them, since they have a pad, are sturdy as sh^+, and not very costly. If one fell over, I'd be irritated, but not heart-broken. But how they sound in this application, I don't know. Would love to hear from someone who does.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[klaukholm]

A great budget option is the TLM193.
I use this along with 170s for all the brass when doing big band.
(although this last saturday I used a 44BX on the solo trombone)

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

A great budget option is the TLM193.
I use this along with 170s for all the brass when doing big band.
(although this last saturday I used a 44BX on the solo trombone)

RCA 44 is the best brass mic. The new AEA 44 is even better. A cheaper option is AEA r84, Coles 4038 or Royer 121.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by plus6vu

I'm also curious about the Heil offerings. I've heard a few good rumblings in articles, but none first hand.

Thanks again, all.
S

I have a PR22. I bought it for vocals but found it only usable as a vocal mic for accoustic, low stage volume type groups. I have used it on sax and trumpet a couple times and really liked it. I think I like the Heil better than a 57 on sax but the other way around on trumpet. I run FOH sometimes for a group whose trombone player has a PR35. It sounds great. I did a live show for a female singer-songwriter who used a PR35 too and I really loved the way she sounded on it.

[Scott Whigham]

I just saw this thread and I'm surprised no one mentioned the MD421! Lots of brass folks in the jazz world use it.

[12ax7]

Originally Posted by Scott Whigham

I just saw this thread and I'm surprised no one mentioned the MD421! Lots of brass folks in the jazz world use it.

Yep.

The 421 is a good "workhorse" brass mic for stage.

The RE20 is also good for sax and low-brass. (Don't like it much on trumpet, though.)

.

[newyorkbrass]

I have had great experience with NADY - a cheap Chinese ribbon mic - sounds awesome - although I did mod the electronics, however you will still get a beautiful sound out of one. and placed properly (at an angle where the back is towards the sky, and front is only pointing to the soloist) you can get almost an perfect isolation. Very sturdy mic - and you can get 2-3 just in case.

[Mats H]

Originally Posted by David Rick

I bought several Rode NT2A's for a project once, and now they're sitting neglected in the bottom of the locker because my typical chamber music gigs use pricey small diaphragms. The Rode's are very colored off-axis, but so are many well-regarded LDC's. I'm thinking brass solos might be a good use for them, since they have a pad, are sturdy as sh^+, and not very costly. If one fell over, I'd be irritated, but not heart-broken. But how they sound in this application, I don't know. Would love to hear from someone who does.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

I've used the NT2000 on alto sax a couple of times and I really think it sounds good in that application. Having a variable pattern selector, pad and hi pass filter also helps.

Mats Helgesson
LIVING SOUND

[plus6vu]

Originally Posted by Scott Whigham

I just saw this thread and I'm surprised no one mentioned the MD421! Lots of brass folks in the jazz world use it.

I've got a couple of 421s that I wouldn't mind using, but in the past I've had to tape the clips because people grab the mic to move it, slide it off of the clip and can't figure out how to put it back on. So, for the rest of the show it hangs from the stand from the tape or winds up on the floor, then I miss the rest of the solos because no one fixes it.

I might revisit those and see what happens.

Scott

[roonsbane]

Beyer M160's! Great on Bones and can be had for around $450. KSM32's are also very nice on horns and can be picked up on ebay for $250-350 on ebay. I don't get too upset when I run out of 87's, 89's and TLM-170 if I have a bunch of KSM-32's. I know I can capture some nice horn tones. I recently tried a bunch of mics on my trumpet, AEA R84's were my absolute favorite trumpet mics as well. Then my next favorite to least favorite of mics I tested was roughly U89's, Royer 122, KSM 32, MXL69, Old U87 (We have 6 old ones some of which sound different, I only grabbed one but it sounded a bit pinched compared to 89's), Beyer 160, and MD441 all recorded on a Neve 88RS.

Cameron

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by sonare

BTW the Jazz at Lincoln Center big band uses TLM170s for brass solos--as I recall.

Rich

I played with J@LC last week. They are now doing this:
Reeds-TLM170
Trombones-KM184
Trumpets-Royer 122
Drums-Royer 122 as OH
Bass-Royer 122 & 47fet
Piano-I forgot to look, but it was not AKG 414 as it used to be.