Need 4 more inputs for High End Classical FW Rig

[jglamar]

I need 4 more channels for my classical FW rig. I have an upcoming series of string 8tet recordings and woud like to buy something small instead of shipping a bunch of heavy expensive gear that could get damaged.
Here's what I use so far:
dpa 4003s main pair
Millennia HV-3B (the 4003s need +130v, you know!)
Benchmark ADC-1 (actually on its way)
These go in thru my old MOTU 828 (mkI) - but notice I'm not using its pre's or converters.
Benchmark DAC-1

Other gear I often use, so you can see the standard I'm looking for:
All-Millennia mic pre's
Apogee Rosetta 800

Other mics I plan on using for my upcoming session are dpa 4003s, Neumann TLM-193, older B&K 4006s. The ultra-pure main pair (4003-Millennia-Benchmark) will be 75% of the mix.

NOW: is there something out there that's between $0 and the Crane Song Spider ($7000-ish) that will provide a comparable quality to the main pair?

I've looked at:
-MH ULN-2 and 2882. Some people say the pres on the 2882 are bad, but everyone likes their a/d conversion. ULN-2 is 2 channels short of my dreams.
-RME Fireface800. People say the conversion is good but not the best, and I'm frankly skeptical of the pre's
-Mackie Onyx400F. Read raves about the pre's and the a/d, but people hate the d/as.. which I woulnd't need anyway. Can these pre's really be that good? Or good enough not to ruin my pristine main pair? If these pres sound like my old 1604 I'm not interested.

Would any of these do the trick? Or is there something wonderful out there I've missed?
It would also be nice if the unit is small, light, and durable (like the ULN-2, for instance). Rack mount is actually kind of a PITA, if I'm trying to travel without my rack!
Thanks, o wise ones.

[just.sounds]

You could take a look at the new apogee ensemble(4 mic pre's) fw card (mac only)

but i don't know if it has equal sound as a rosetta has

Greetings

[ghellquist]

Difficult question to answer really. It all depends.

First question - how bad is the 828mkII AD to your ears? In this case you will use it for the less important channels. Check it out against the ADC1 and listen. Just maybe setup two 4003-s real close, run them through the Millenium and one of them through the ADC and one through the 828. The result may be less difference than you expected, or enough to never think about again, you never really know before trying.

As a first short step, you need to add some more preamps. Personally I happen to like the DAV BG2, 4 top channels at a decent price. Of course 8 channels of Millenia is even nicer, but also a bit heavier to carry (literally, that is one heavy box) and much more expensive.

Then comes the AD question. Difficult area really. To my ears there is not much mid-ground equipment, ie less expensive than the Benchmark / Lavry / and so on, and better sounding than the Motu. One idea might be to sell the 828 towards an RME fireface (not sure about the pres though, but the AD is supposedly a step above the 828). Scanning the used market is always a good thing as well, you never know what turns up.

Regardless what you do, you would need to listen first. The AD-s in the 828 are to my ears well into the middle segment and can as such be used to create good recordings. Next step into top quality will cost you real money.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

Ooh, I love the 4003-s. Run them myselves through a Millenia followed by Lavry Blue. Super-clear! Backup channels do run through an 828 at times.

Gunnar

[jglamar]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

One idea might be to sell the 828 towards an RME fireface (not sure about the pres though, but the AD is supposedly a step above the 828). Scanning the used market is always a good thing as well, you never know what turns up.

Regardless what you do, you would need to listen first. The AD-s in the 828 are to my ears well into the middle segment and can as such be used to create good recordings. Next step into top quality will cost you real money.
Gunnar

Thanks gunnar. In my original post, I mentioned that I don't use the a/d in the 828 - I use Apogee Rosetta 800. The DAV BG2 sounds interesting though, perhaps in combi. w/4 ch. Lavry? But then I'm spending almost as I would on the Spider... Hmmm..

[klaukholm]

I am in danger of repeating myself a little here, but here goes:
BIS is often using the RME Octamic D for their portable system these days.
It is one rackunit per 8 ch, not very deep and includes converters.
I was a little surprised the first time I saw this. While not sonically optimal it may be just what you are looking for; small light and reasonably priced (list $1480 for the digital version)

In the higher pricerange there is the Benchmark chassis which gets you 16 ch of pre's in one rack unit. The nifty thing is that you can buy it with just a couple of cards giving you 4 channels and then later add 2 channels at a time at $230 per pair.

I cant vouch for the sond on either, but I would look into them if I were you.

Please let us know what you learn in your search.

kjetil

[jglamar]

Refreshing this thread since it's been a few days...

Here's my thinking now:
4 channels of DAV BG2 pre's and 4 channels of Lavry Blue a/d.
This represents something like $1000 per channel, and a pretty good bang for the buck, I'm guessing. All that in 2 rack units.

Now the question is how to get the gear to the gig - ship, check, try to carry on?

Also - can anyone tell me what the output section of the Lavry is like? There's no diagram on their website that I can see.

[klaukholm]

The lavry blue AD has AES XLR outputs (single wire), one per MAD module.

It is an exellent converter.
good luck

kjetil

[jglamar]

Hmmm... So I'll need 4 AES inputs to get these signals into my DAW? Bummer! No chance of ADAT Optical out, I wonder? Should I be looking at another converter?

[ghellquist]

Originally Posted by jglamar

Hmmm... So I'll need 4 AES inputs to get these signals into my DAW? Bummer! No chance of ADAT Optical out, I wonder? Should I be looking at another converter?

AES it is. I run my Lavry into a RME ADI4 and then a RME Digiface - cable - card in my laptop. The two RME-s accept various digital formats and takes together one unit in the rack. Very stable solution! These would then replace the 828mkII.

Gunnar

[jglamar]

Originally Posted by ghellquist

AES it is. I run my Lavry into a RME ADI4 and then a RME Digiface - cable - card in my laptop. The two RME-s accept various digital formats and takes together one unit in the rack. Very stable solution! These would then replace the 828mkII.

Gunnar

Stable solution, yes. But between the ADI 4 and the new flight case I'm going to need, there goes another $1000. Not to mention the extra bulk and the cabling...

Is there a more elegant solution? I.e., a great 4-ch. a/d with ADAT Optical output?

[sonare]

I jsut got rid of the Onyx because of the sound of the pres and A/D. Bought a 2882 and it is in a different class altogether.

I have even tried the pres as "mains" and was not disappointed (and this with CMC62H). It also does AES. I would not put it in the same class as my "big rig" pres and Myteks, but it does not miss it by much.

Why not send your good pres into the aux inputs and use the inboard for spots that are 20dB down in the mix? You will never notice that they aren't Millennias!

Rich

[jslevin]

Surprised nobody is stating the obvious here. You can ditch your HV-3B and trade up to an eight-channel HV-3D. That's going to cost about the same as adding a comparable four-channel unit ... and you get eight channels.

For conversion and interface, there are plenty of options. Rosetta 800 (with FireWire card) will be the most costly. MH 2882 and Fireface are both very good options. I tend towards Apogee stuff but would probably go with the Fireface in your situation. It gives you two extra preamps and converters just for the hell of it, and the ability to add up to 18 additional digital inputs down the road.

The Apogee Ensemble sure looks like a nice solution, but it's hard to recommend something that nobody's heard yet.

Another fairly simple/economical solution would be a Focusrite ISA-428 with the digital output option. Not quite in a class with the Millennia, but four very nice pres and lots of flexilibity with the digital side.

[Midlandmorgan]

We use a Fireface with ADesigns P1 (Pacifica) cards and/or OSA MP1Cs...not a big fan of the Fireface preamps, but they can work well for certain things (audience mics, spot micing an announcer, etc...)

We also use the Presonus Firepod for some gigs - the Firepod's AD ain't too bad at all, the pres much better than one would expect...but throw in the P1s, and the game is over...the improvement is startling....

[dizziness]

Too bad the Mytek 8x192 isn't really shipping and the Firewire interface is non-existent at the moment...

I've got a Fireface800, DAV BG2 myself and I like the combo. You can't run the BG2 up to its higher gain as the FF clips too early on the input. Not a big probelm though, I just monitor in the DAW.

I'm considering adding a Lavry 2ch set of Blues with AES>SPDIF conversion for the main pair. Trouble is I typically do two main pairs, near and ambient. The Mytek or Apogee seems the solution (although not the Lavry) but both are vaporware at the moment.

I'm curious of any other firewire solutions. My laptop does not have Cardbus so that's not an option (using the RME combo).

Chris

[jglamar]

I got 2 Lavry boxes, each with 2 channels of mic pre and 2 channels of a/d. This required me also to get a RME ADI-400 and a custom AES snake. I'll report back after trial runs in the next few weeks. Am very much looking forward to it.

Thanks for all the replies!

[Greg Heimbecker]

Let us know how your choices work out for you.

For others looking to assemble a similar rig I'll toss in another for vote for the Mytek converters for those who are patient enough to wait for the firewire interface and the backorders to thin out.

A couple other pres to think about would be the Earthworks and Forsell pres. I have 10 chs of Earthworks and 14 of Millenia HV-3. The Earthworks is in the same extremely transparent league as the Millenia and to my ear ever so slightly warmer (and I do mean by the tiniest margin). They also sport a second set of outputs which could feed different converters for a backup. I haven't used the Forsell but have heard nothing but raves from those that have.

The Broadhurst Gardens pres aren't easy to find here in the middle of the states so I haven't heard them. There are occasions when I'll drag out my Fearn VT-2. Earthworks QTC-1s through the Fearn can be amazing in the right setting!

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Greg Heimbecker

The Broadhurst Gardens pres aren't easy to find here in the middle of the states so I haven't heard them.

At $660 for the 2ch BG#1 you cannot go wrong in order to hear them in person. I bought them without hearing them based on comments from friends, and I think they are every bit as good (but different) as my Millenias.

And they do come up on eBay from time to time and also show that they hold their value.

Rich

[jglamar]

Yes, I got very close to buysing the BG2, and may yet, eventually... probably need more mics first, and new monitors, and some RPG diffusors...:-)