Is it ok to take the mixing desk direct outs into Alesis HD24 at a live gig?

[ianpwilliams]

Would it be ok to take mixing desk direct outputs into the Alesis HD24 to record a live gig, without a separate mixer in between to control the levels? I notice that the HD24 doesn'thave any kind of input gain controls, so I'm worried that the mixing desk direct outs could cause peaking on the HD24.

[SynthLine09]

No need for a mixer in between - this is quite common

[madtheory]

Ys, it's commonly done. If the direct outs are post fader it will not be great, because eq, fader rides etc. will be designed for the venue and will work against you in the mix later. A split multi is the best way, or sniffers on the desk's inserts.

[ianpwilliams]

Ah that's great news.

But when you say a "split-multi" and "sniffers", what do you mean exactly? Sorry, haven't heard those terms.

[madtheory]

Split multi: stage box has every input split to two outputs using transformers or buffers.

Sniffers are cables to take an output from the insert without breaking the signal flow from mic pre onwards to eq section.

[ianpwilliams]

Ah ok, thanks. And yeah, we did consider the stage boxes option.

[madtheory]

Ah, OK. So if the direct outs are pre eq, that's the best option, you'll have a balanced line.

[jude]

unless you are the person mixing FOH, dont expect the engineer to let you have the inserts for recording

[ianpwilliams]

Yeah I think we would prefer to avoid having any EQ or anything applied, so we can do that ourselves in the mix. In fact what we really need is for the signal to not be changed at all, by the gains or anything. So we would need pre-everything direct outs from the desk, or split outputs from the stage box sounds even better. Like I say though, the main concern with either of these options is peaking. It surprises me that there is no input gain control on the HD24, not even a single gain to bring the input of all 24 channels down.

[ebulb]

you will be surpirsed how much level the HD24 can handle before its a problem.. And the gain being run on the desk is unlikely to be too loud to clip the HD24 cause chances are that would clip the live signal also.. so unless the engineer is a total novice you should be ok..

What you should hope for though is pre fader/EQ from the direct outs and then also hope the gain structure gets set on each input and doesnt change too much during the show.. Constant level and EQ changes can be nightmare and whats even worse is gates.. if the live guy gates the drums (which most at least will gate kick and maybe toms) and they set them badly or the drummers dynamics are all over the place, well suddenly you have a recording thats missing drum hits everywhere.. That is actually one of the worst things you can encounter..

Also some engineers like to ride gain heavily and others ride faders.. So even if you get pre fader you arent always in the clear for a decent recording.. the proper way of working (i think) is to set gain once during line check and run faders for everything else, because a pre amp will change your harmonic content and can affect feedback/EQ also.. but its not uncommon to find live sound guys who dont care or dont know of this and ride the gain pot like a rollercoaster which is a disaster when recording..

I just thought, a good quick and dirty way to setup like this would be to make a device which tapped the inserts output signal to a TRS for recording but also retained the insert point for the FOH guy.. i think you could build a small rack device that did something like that, its essentially just another splitter but depending on the gig it could be easier and more suitable in certain circumstances..

Ive been in situations where its hard to get help from a FOH guy when you want to split the lines before the stagebox.. or if you are working somewhere for a support band you dont have any influence in what goes on at the gig you need a quick and easy option. Direct outs usually work for that ok but its hit and miss.. If you could patch the inserts and leave the FOH guy to organise himself elsewhere it could make things easier.. It would be better than direct outs because inserts are always pre fader and most are pre EQ (i think), so youd avoid the hit and miss of direct outs and you could take the signal before gates, youd still have to hope the gain didnt change much but it might be a cool method..

does anyone know if it would be easy or hard to build a splitter unit which split a TRS insert signal to a mono 1/4 inch (output) and also to TRS (in and out) ? Would you still need isolating transformers like XLR splitters or could you just hardwire it direct ? Alternatively are there any patchbays which could achieve the same result ?

[jude]

am i the only FOH guy that gets very worried when people want to plug recording gear into the desk AND direct where it will be plugged and how it will be mixed?

[ianpwilliams]

Actually, our primary aim is to be able to record the gig without interfering with the FOH engineer. And also to not have to rely on the FOH engineer to do anything different than what he normally does, because some FOH engineers are more/less skilled and more/less helpful than others.

[madtheory]

Then the only way to do that is with splitters, your own multi and your own desk and monitor speakers/ cans in a room that is not the auditorium.

[ianpwilliams]

We should be ok with direct outs, otherwise we'll go for the stage box

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by jude

am i the only FOH guy that gets very worried when people want to plug recording gear into the desk AND direct where it will be plugged and how it will be mixed?

I presume you are worried about something not working when you are trying to mix the gig ? In the case of direct outs i think its over the top worrying about someone taking those sends, they have no impact on signal flow at all..

In the case of splitters before a stagebox, if you have adequate time during setup (which anyone recording with splitters should) its not hard to isolate splitters if they are causing a problem.. There's always the chance they could go down during the gig, but in reality anything could go down.. If the band headlining are hiring someone to record and you are an in house sound guy, well you are there to support the band.. If they rock up with a 6 piece brass section and you dont have enough mics you can get worried about that also but you are there to support them and make things work for them as best you can..

Problem at some venues is, the in house sound guys think they are the ones performing and everyone else should get out of the way, including the bands..

In the case of my split the insert idea, its only a concept and its actually very little difference with impact to direct out.. i could patch something like that in through all the insert lines not being used and then transfer the 6 or 8 that are being used last and have it done in 30 secs.

If im recording something and i am taking direct outs, i always find out if the desk is pre/post EQ and fader.. if its post fader i wont bother if its post EQ i still might, but either way i dont interfere with the FOH guys method of mixing i just deal with wahtever signal i get.. I ask if they like to ride gain to get an idea of what im in for but i wouldnt try and tell them what to do.. If thats what you mean by telling someone how it will be mixed..

Ian... i agree the goal is to not burden anyone, but in the case of splitters on stage ive found its basically impossible to run this setup without some impact on the FOH person.. Ive recorded upwards of 100 gigs and i find any FOH person who knows their shit doesnt have a problem if you give them notice, there is a certain brand of person in the middle who knows enough but maybe isnt confident in their ability and freaks out at everything.. thats the guy im praying i dont come across because you spend your entire time juggling his emotions on what should be relatively simple scenarios.

[madtheory]

Good points.

Another problem with not using splits at the stage box is that there will sometimes be some stuff that does not need to be miked for FOH, eg brass and loud guitar cabs. You'll also need a stereo pair facing away from the stage, and another pair at FOH facing the stage, if you want to capture atmosphere.

[RobAnderson]

Taking direct outputs off the FOH mixing desk is not an ideal thing to do, but it is possible. As already mentioned, if they are pre-fader, pre-EQ you will be happier. However, you are at the mercy of the FOH guy's gain structure.

Transformer-isolated mic splits are the best way to go since it allows recording and FOH to be completely independent of each other, but then you will need some sort of pre-amplification for the mic level signals that you are splitting - either stand-alone mic preamps, or the inserts or direct outs of your own console - unless you are using some really hard-core active splitters, but based on your posts, I will assume that this is not the case.

In fact what we really need is for the signal to not be changed at all, by the gains or anything. So we would need pre-everything direct outs from the desk, or split outputs from the stage box sounds even better. Like I say though, the main concern with either of these options is peaking. It surprises me that there is no input gain control on the HD24, not even a single gain to bring the input of all 24 channels down.

The HD24 is a multi-track line-level recorder - I can't think of any such device that has controls as you describe. Some may have calibration pots for each channel that you could adjust with a screwdriver, but these are not boxes with built-in preamplifiers.

Based on your posts, I am guessing that you might be a little new to the whole concept of line vs. mic level signals, impedance "matching," and proper gain structure, so forgive me if I am misunderstanding your level of experience or expertise here, but you can't just plug a mic directly into the HD-24 - you would need to at least have the channel input gain on the FOH mixer to boost a mic-level signal to something that the HD24 can actually use.

Generally, unless you have been really nice to the live sound crew and worked things out with them well in advance of the gig, they are not going to give you anything, and they will not be inclined to help you in any way - for good reason.

They generally have enough to deal with as it is, and adding a recordist to the gig adds more complexity and possibilities for problems, especially if your equipment is in their signal path.

[madtheory]

Very well put Rob!

The Klark Technik splitter is "hard core" it has gain, HPF and phantom, and sounds great, I used one last week.

[George Necola]

I clip my inputs on analog desks.. thats a lot of fun with the inserts..

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