788t at 96k or Zaxcom Fusion 12 at 48K

[EarlG]

@apple-q, I openly admitted that what I was proposing was hearsay - but it's not entirely baseless, either. The purpose of this thread was to get some answers. Instead and for no reason, you mostly used it to vent your underbred insults and remarks. It really hasn't done you or the rest of us any good, mate.

Certainly, I have not directly compared the 788 to the Fusion. Apparently, neither have you. That leaves my "questionable" theory, which you are welcome to *disprove* if you so strongly object. FWIW, it was partly humor (no, I would not buy the Fusion based on a theory) and partly founded on certain credible individuals who, as unbelievable as it sounds, actually had something to contribute elsewhere:

"...the Sound Devices and Zaxcom aren't really in the same league.... I have used both and the Zaxcom's D/A design is far superior... the SD is capable of recording at 24 bit, 96.096 kHz sample rate, the Zaxcom can do 24 bit 192kHz... I'm currently comparing the Zaxcom to the Cantar and Nagra VI... The main issue for us is the D/A quality. According to our sound engineer the SD couldn't compete in that arena. Listening to stuff recorded on the Deva 5.8 vs. the SD I have to agree... I'm not saying that the SD recorders aren't good, they are, very good. But the Zaxcom Devas are just in another category altogether... Any of the Zaxcom Deva recorders will do. They are the Rolls Royce of the industry. We used to use Nagra, we now use these... If you do sound in mission critical environments that require lots of moving parts and flexibility, there is nothing that touches the capabilities of a Zaxcom."

All I was alluding to in my theory as evidenced by the recent comparison between the Nagra and the SD, is that varying sampling rates are not contributing factors to the overall sound quality of these high-end recorders. With that in mind and the information posted elsewhere by people who have indeed used both, one could choose a Fusion over a SD and gain other features that are indeed cost effective.

Incidentally, the Deva has fractionally higher specs than the Fusion. Anyone care to comment? I didn't think so

[AB3]

And that is GOOD advice! Thank you very much.

And thanks to Roundbadge as well.

(I could not help but revisit this thread).

Looks like 788t is going to be it for me - at least it is returnable, etc.

And at least I can record at 96K and use my current batteries with charger IN the unit.

And I can always hook up another one.

And I am sort of a knob guy rather than touch screen guy.

I am also not so concerned about the DA as the AD, as I will be taking tracks into a DAW and playing them back that way.

THANKS.

Originally Posted by apple-q

The advice I was offering was that you should not make this decision based on info from people who say "theoretically the deva should sound better at 48k". . . . .

have a nice day.

[EarlG]

The advice I was offering was that you should not make this decision based on info from people who say "theoretically the deva should sound better at 48k"

Neither should one settle for a 788 with the notion that it won't

If it were just a matter of sound quality and the Nagra was limited to 44.1 kHz while the SD could do 96, I'd probably choose the Nagra. I can still get 8 channels @96 kHz with the Fusion, depending on whether or not I use some as mix channels (which normally I would not). That kind of levels the playing field. Besides, I know I will be satisfied with 12 Fusion tracks @48 kHz, and I'd have the option of 192 kHz. The thing is, I need the type of quality that Nagra offers. From what I hear, that is likely to be expected from or even surpassed by the Fusion. I know this is all up for debate without a direct shootout, but already it's conclusive* that Nagra has the edge over the 788. Of course, an outboard preamp could all but mitigate my concerns. But that would make my rig much weightier in both pound and pocket.

* That is, in my professional opinion

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by EarlG

From what I hear, that is likely to be expected from or even surpassed by the Fusion. I know this is all up for debate without a direct shootout, but already it's conclusive that Nagra has the edge over the 788.

funny. So it's up for debate and a direct shootout but already conclusive at the same time?! What has the Nagra to do with this?

you are not making sense.

[apple-q]

Also to clear up some other info so far:

The 788 offers 12 tracks regardless of samplerate. They chose to compromise the use of limiters at high samplerates instead of reducing track count. Due to limitations of the DSP.

The same is true for the deva. The difference is that they reduce track count at high rates.

Which method is better or worse really depends on your application.

[EarlG]

So it's up for debate and a direct shootout but already conclusive at the same time?!

viz. SD vs. Fusion is up for debate without a shootout; Nagra vs. SD is conclusive.*

What has the Nagra to do with this?

As previously mentioned.

The same is true for the deva.

Actually the Deva and Fusion are two separate models that differ somewhat from each other.

Just to add that I really do like the 788. But all things considered, the Fusion appeals to me more. Even so, I think it's time that both SD and Zaxcom offered full functionality for all tracks at 96 kHz at the very least. But it's still no train smash.

Cheers!

* That is, in my professional opinion

[9sbean]

Originally Posted by EarlG

I think its time that both SD and Zaxcom offered full functionality for all tracks at 96 kHz at the very least.

Agreed, I'm still looking at these models plus Sonosax SX-R6, Nagra VI(VII?)... Their efforts (+competition) bring excellent tools to us.

Wish there will be XLR-5F stereo mic input option on any or all of them.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by 9sbean

Agreed, I'm still looking at these models plus Sonosax SX-R6, Nagra VI(VII?)... Their efforts (+competition) bring excellent tools to us.

Wish there will be XLR-5F stereo mic input option on any or all of them.

cantar has xlr 5F

[9sbean]

Originally Posted by apple-q

cantar has xlr 5F

Didn't notice that before. Tried to Google the pictures but did not find any input socket picture.

Download the manual and found Mic 3/4, Line in 1/2, 3/4, and output are all XLR-5 jacks! Great!

More than this, it got Schoeps double M/S surround decoder built-in. (Why not XLR-7 input jack for it?)

Bad thing about it: Price is very high and operation is very different from the other. I shall take a good look at this, my friend got 3 of them, he loves Cantar!

[AB3]

For someone who nitpicks everyone else's post, you can do a little better.

The 12 tracks of the 788 ARE NOT ISO TRACKS. They are not separate tracks. 4 of those tracks are made up of the original 8 inputs.

THe Fusion 12 makes 12 ISO tracks. That is a difference if you are recording a live band, for instance.

Now as to the other posts - I would seriously consider the Nagra if it offered 8mic inputs like the Zaxcom, but it does not. Only four mic pres (thought awesome ones) on board. I believe that one can achieve 8 iso tracks on the Nagra with four other inputs, but not through mic pres on the Nagra itself. And people in the U.S. pay a premium for the import charges. It is a better deal in Europe - and if I was in Europe, I could easily be pursuaded into that unit.

I agree with the mention in the above post that it would be great is SD and Zaxcom offered full funtionality at 96K on all tracks.

The day will likely arrive.

Best,
AB

Originally Posted by apple-q

Also to clear up some other info so far:

The 788 offers 12 tracks regardless of samplerate. They chose to compromise the use of limiters at high samplerates instead of reducing track count. Due to limitations of the DSP. . . .

.

[AB3]

Your word goes a long way here.

Have you ever linked the two 788t units together?

Best,
AB

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

lol
I'm an IASTE 695 sound mixer.. AND engineer/drummer[for even longer]
have recorded dialog and music on em.
I can safely say the 788 sounds great.[I own two and a 744t]

[RoundBadge]

Originally Posted by AB3

Your word goes a long way here.

Have you ever linked the two 788t units together?

Best,
AB

No.
haven't had the need.. ..yet.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by AB3

For someone who nitpicks everyone else's post, you can do a little better.

The 12 tracks of the 788 ARE NOT ISO TRACKS. They are not separate tracks. 4 of those tracks are made up of the original 8 inputs.

As far as the nit picking goes:

I never said the 788 had 12 inputs. Or did I? I said the 788 has 12 tracks.
The 12 tracks are all separate. You can route any of the 8 ins to any of the 12 tracks pre or post fader. Just a matter how you define "separate tracks".
You can also route ANY of the 12 tracks to 3 different recording media at the same time. At 96k to 2 different media.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by apple-q

As far as the nit picking goes:

The 12 tracks are all separate. You can route any of the 8 ins to any of the 12 tracks pre or post fader. Just a matter how you define "separate tracks".
You can also route ANY of the 12 tracks to 3 different recording media at the same time. At 96k to 2 different media.

How about 8 inputs, 12 tracks?

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by 9sbean

More than this, it got Schoeps double M/S surround decoder built-in. (Why not XLR-7 input jack for it?)

DMS wasn´t used when the first Cantar-X hit the market almost 10 years ago. It was way ahead of it´s time back then, when others were still using Deva 2 and it still is abolutely current while other MFG went throuh multiple generations of hardware.

The X2 even offers FTP connectivity via ethernet and record while playback, something Zaxcom kept announcing for years but never delivered.

It´s a very good machine. The pres are great and so are the limiters.

For what I do it doesn´t have enough mic-pres. Otherwise a great machine with great ergonomics.

[EarlG]

It´s a very good machine.

My future rig

[EarlG]

...with enormous potential for impressing the fairer sex

Cantar owners: 0.56% ladies; 99.44% gentlemen.

[EarlG]

The X2 even offers FTP connectivity via ethernet and record while playback

ZaxNet is also very useful, OTOH the X2 can be controlled remotely via Ethernet. Also, the X2 doesn't support punching in/ out, and Play&Rec only works at 48kHz.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by EarlG

...with enormous potential for impressing the fairer sex

Aaton Photo Gallery :: Location Sound Mixers at work :: Scott_H_0344

[AB3]

I must admit - I had no idea this thread would raise such emotions.

It is good that people on GS do not have nukes.

We are just talking about field recorders. We are not dividing the world here.

Maybe we can bring it down a notch or two.

By the way, it looks like to Tascam HS-P82s can be linked. Not sure that is true of the Zaxcom Fusion. (It is also true of course that the SD 788t can link sample perfect with another SD788t).

It all gives me a headache. No recorder is perfect. Some have really high prices without all the features I would want. Some are priced well but have some flaws. The Nagra looks great, has some flaws, but mostly is just really expensive in the U.S. Can't they come up with a way to make it an American product as well?

Best to everyone.
AB

[boojum]

Originally Posted by AB3

(It is also true of course that the SD 788t can link sample perfect with another SD788t).

The entire SD 7nn series can be linked to one another in this manner.

[AB3]

Actually the whole 7XXX series cannot be linked sample accurate. I discussed this with SD themselves. The 788t can be sample accurate with another 788t. The accuracy with another unit in the series (that is not an 788t) is not sample accurate but can be compensated for as indicated below from the Sound Devices website.

The non-788t units can be sample accurate with other non-788t units.

So it is a little complicated. But overall it is very good and my mentioning of this is not to denigrate Sound Devices in any fashion.

This is from Sound Devices website:

Sample Accuracy of Linked Units
There are three machine linking scenarios, each behaves slightly differently:

788T-to-788T Linking
When two or more 788T recorders are linked, all linked inputs are sample and phase-accurate. No compensation is required between units.
Linking multiple 702/702T/722/744T Recorders
When two or more of the 702, 702T, 722, or 744T recorders are linked, all linked inputs are sample and phase-accurate. No compensation is required between units.
788T Linked to a 702/702T/722/744T
Linking the 788T with 702, 702T, 722, or 744T recorders is time code frame accurate but not sample accurate. The 788T recorders analog and digital input circuitry is different than that of the two- and four-channel recorders. This results in a short, predictable, and constant digital delay between the inputs of linked machines. Since the delay is constant, tracks are easy to align in a DAW. The chart below indicates the amount of delay the 788T has relative to the two- and four-channel recorders..

Originally Posted by boojum

The entire SD 7nn series can be linked to one another in this manner.

[EarlG]

The pres are great

Most X1/2 users insist that their pres are superior to those of the Deva (and by implication the Fusion). It's said that by design Cantar's pres can't function as switchable mic/ line ins, and that those that do invariably compromise on sound quality. In response, AAton offers a small "8-to-8 Bridge" breakout-box - or instead one can attenuate the filter settings on each mic input. So far as the shortage of mic pres is concerned, there's always the option of running digital mics via AES.

The real question is How much better are the Cantar pres than their Deva/ Fusion/ Nagra counterparts? Zaxcom recorders have other features in their favor that some consider worthy compromises. But personally I wouldn't discard the X2 on those factors alone.

It all gives me a headache.

I'm sure Asprin was especially formulated for people like us

[boojum]

Originally Posted by AB3

Actually the whole 7XXX series cannot be linked sample accurate. I discussed this with SD themselves.

You are correct; my error. Sorry about that. I misunderstood the SD release. I have pasted in the SD summary:

Sample Accuracy of Linked Units
There are three machine linking scenarios, each behaves slightly differently:

788T-to-788T Linking
When two or more 788T recorders are linked, all linked inputs are sample and phase-accurate. No compensation is required between units.
Linking multiple 702/702T/722/744T Recorders
When two or more of the 702, 702T, 722, or 744T recorders are linked, all linked inputs are sample and phase-accurate. No compensation is required between units.
788T Linked to a 702/702T/722/744T
Linking the 788T with 702, 702T, 722, or 744T recorders is time code frame accurate but not sample accurate. The 788T recorders analog and digital input circuitry is different than that of the two- and four-channel recorders. This results in a short, predictable, and constant digital delay between the inputs of linked machines. Since the delay is constant, tracks are easy to align in a DAW. The chart below indicates the amount of delay the 788T has relative to the two- and four-channel recorders..
Chart of Delays
Input Type Sample Rate/kHz 788T Input Delay Relative to the
702, 702T, 722, 744T Recorders
All Analog 44.1 1.0 ms
48 0.9 ms
88.2 0.4 ms
96 0.3 ms
All Digital 44.1 3.5 ms
48 3.2 ms
88.2 1.6 ms
96 1.4 ms
An input delay can be set in the two- and four-channel recorders (in the input delay menus) to align the inputs of the machines. Use the table above to set the delay value.

Note: when daisy-chaining audio from the outputs of one recorder into the inputs of a linked recorder, there is no need to apply delay.

[AB3]

Thank you Boojum. I hope it is a beautiful day in Astoria. One of my favorite cities.

[marvin100]

Originally Posted by AB3

I hope it is a beautiful day in Astoria. One of my favorite cities.

Oh, man, yes. And one of Oregon's secretly weirdest.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by marvin100

Oh, man, yes. And one of Oregon's secretly weirdest.

I didn't know it was a secret. ;o) Yeah, it is weird. All the more to love about it. And this weekend: Fisher Poets! Tired of cowboy doggerel? Try Fisher Poets.


Cheers

[AB3]

To me, this thread was worth it for the post quoted below. Never heard about the Fisher Poets. I assume it must go along with a great beer.

Originally Posted by boojum

I didn't know it was a secret. ;o) Yeah, it is weird. All the more to love about it. And this weekend: Fisher Poets! Tired of cowboy doggerel? Try Fisher Poets.


Cheers

[boojum]

Originally Posted by AB3

To me, this thread was worth it for the post quoted below. Never heard about the Fisher Poets. I assume it must go along with a great beer.

Winner! Winner! Chicken dinner. As fate would have it, all the venues are in saloons. I am shocked. Actually it is kind of fun and the occasional poet does show up. There was a woman from WA state who was an enchanting poet. It is mostly salty doggerel but it is unique and who knows how much longer it will be around. Spike Walker will probably be there. A wonderful author who wrote about fishing for crab off Alaska and from which the TV series was spun. Read his books. I thought they were BS. They are not. Scare you into never going to sea, they will.

We have two micro breweries here in town which are reputed to be quite good. My drinking license was pulled years ago so I can only go by what I hear.


And now back to GS stuff.


Cheers to all.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by EarlG

viz. ... Nagra vs. SD is conclusive.

Not so fast. Opinions in that thread are not overwhelming nor are they conclusive. Your assertion sounds like a new "Gearslutz fact".

I conducted the shootout and I won't easily let anyone characterize it as "conclusive." It has comparative clips and a handful of opinions that go both ways, and a significant group that didn't think there were any notable differences.

I concluded from the shootout that Nagra still has it's legendary spot atop the portable recorder market, but that SD sonics come so close that most critical music recordists will be happy with either model. In my opinion a buyer's decision can be confidently made on features and price alone because they both sound that good.