Radar V or Tascam X48 ?

[TER]

If you're looking for a DAW, RADAR is not that. If you're looking for a replacement for a 24 track, RADAR is that. Great converters, too. That point should be abundantly clear from the posts above.

If you're looking for a DAW, why not just buy a computer and roll your own?

Tascam can tell you anything they want until the thing ships...then we'll see what it is, what it costs, and most importantly, how it sounds.

My RADAR cost under $10k when I got it...you don't need to buy the Ferrari version to get a solid machine.

-t

[drew]

Originally Posted by JOHN

Is Tascam that bad of a company?

yes.

[trident fan]

Originally Posted by Ziggy!!

It is an interesting statement considering the tascam isn't even shipping yet. In all aspects this makes it nothing short of a very valid question...

oh, the tascam isn't shipping yet. how about the beringer?

[Dr. Nutz]

Originally Posted by trident fan

oh, the tascam isn't shipping yet. how about the beringer?

the day that behringer starts making multitracks will be the death of us all.

[Mike O]

Originally Posted by JOHN

Thanks to all for your comments but Radar V does not have any virtual tracks and you cannot use a mouse for editing it also costs $21,000. I called tascam and they told me the X48 will only cost $5,000 and has Time-stamped Broadcast WAVE file format
Workstation/Mixing:Turn-key operation: no software conflicts to troubleshoot
Graphic user interface for editing, mixing, plug-ins and meters
48-channel mixing at 96kHz / 24 channels at 192kHz
32-bit floating point mixer resolution
6 stereo returns (60 inputs at mixdown)
24 busses, 6 aux sends, stereo master buss
Full dynamic automation
Dynamics, 4-band parametric EQ and 4 VST plug-in inserts per channel

X-48 is Tascam's first standalone 48-track Hybrid Hard Disk Workstation which integrates the best of both worlds: the stability and ease-of-use of a purpose-built hard disk recorder, with the GUI, editing features and plug-in compatibility of a computer-based digital audio workstation.
It boasts 96kHz/24-bit recording across all 48 tracks and 192kHz across 24 tracks. Yet the X-48 goes beyond mere standalone recorders – its built-in, automated 48-channel digital mixer, VGA display output, powerful editing functions and DVD+RW backup drive transform it into a complete integrated workstation.


I cannot see the point spending $21,000 on a Radar V which only has 24 tracks and does not even have virtual tracks and has no mouse editing. Is Tascam that bad of a company?why would they make the X48 unuseable. What do you think gearslutz people?

I don't believe the $5K price includes 24 A/D and D/A converters. Radar has time stamped BW files. I think Steve Remote posted the prices of additional cards earlier in his forum.

Although I own Radar, I do hope Tascam get's this one right. There really is no reason why the company can't change or that technology cannot advance. Due to my experience with Tascam it will be a couple of years (assuming it comes out in May) before reliabity, etc. is tested by the early adopters enough for me to consider it.

[audiovalley]

i've owned a radar 24 with nyquist converters for 3 years , use it every day , 7 days a week . every time i turn it on , it does what it is supposed to do . sounds great and works great . as many have stated, it is not a daw , but a stand alone 24 track recorder .
i have a kc24( the less expensive controller ) and use a mouse for mark in / outs and for jog / shuttle functions all the time . i actually love editing on the radar , i find it so easy to fix whatever needs fixing , clients are always stunned at how fast we work on the radar and how great it sounds .

as for price , you could get a radar v nyquist ( 96 khz converters ) with the kc24 ( not the session controller and the meterbridge ) , for $15k . the tascam at $5k will not have analog i/o and by the time you add those cards the radar will be twice the price not four times .

if you are worried about absolute track counts and virutal tracks , it is very easy with the radar to just make copies of the song you are working on ( without using anymore disk space ) and just do additional takes in the copies .
i.e. vocals on track 12 , if you had copied bed tracks five times and set five loc points ,
go to 1st loc point for take one , 2nd loc point for take 2 etc... then comp them later .

one thing to also keep in mind is that the radar is an upgradable solution . iz doesn't release a new model every year and drop the old ones , i started with a digital only version of the radar 24 and then added the nyquist converters , i can now upgrade my unit to the new " v" version by adding the new addrenalin2 card . their service is exceptional , their knowledge of and commitment to their product is astounding .

there are so many ways of working with audio these days , but for me , the radar is the best way , it always works , i love the way it sounds and it makes me look like a better engineer .

jon

[Revelation]

My feeling is the Tascam has a good product that has a lot of bells that Radar does not have. However like it was said above, people that want a tape recorder in digital with very high end converters will want to go the Radar route. If you don't want to rely on a PC to run a DAW and want a dedicate machine that includes Cubase, the Tascam could be what your looking for. Though I love Radar' sound, I prefer working with plug ins and automation. I would not want to work with Radar with only a analog console and hardware. Yeah I used to work that way (though with reel to reel machines) but I prefer the digital age with automation and high end plug ins to add during the mixing stage. I know others use PT with Radar but that is 50K right there for the two. But hey if you have the money, you could use PT or Nuendo with Radar and would have an amazing set up. However most of us can't afford all these toys.

[Stormkloud]

I agree with every good comment here about Radar. I am a Radar 24 Nyquist owner for a little over 3 years now and couldnt be happier ! There is no better customer support anywhere. The part someone said about them being passionate about their product is dead on. They love what they do there and, it shows.
As far as the sound , I havent used anything that sounds better. It is very true to its analog source. Every input monitors its own output so there is no latency problems at all. Its one of those tools you end up taking for granite because it always works. I have yet to have a crash in mid session with my Radar.

There is only one thing I truely HATE about the Radar. If you use it long enough, you will not want to ever use anything else !

[trident fan]

Originally Posted by Dr. Nutz

the day that behringer starts making multitracks will be the death of us all.

really i thought it was pro tools le?

[midnightsun]

Originally Posted by JOHN

Thanks to all for your comments but Radar V does not have any virtual tracks and you cannot use a mouse for editing it also costs $21,000. I called tascam and they told me the X48 will only cost $5,000 and has Time-stamped Broadcast WAVE file format

I don't think that the RADAR is quite that expensive; furthermore, you are comparing apples to oranges because with 5K cost off the TASCAM 48 does not include converters. Go price out converters that are in the same league: Apogee, Mytek, Lavry, etc and and you are looking at over 10 thousand dollars.

Workstation/Mixing:Turn-key operation: no software conflicts to troubleshoot
Graphic user interface for editing, mixing, plug-ins and meters
48-channel mixing at 96kHz / 24 channels at 192kHz
32-bit floating point mixer resolution
6 stereo returns (60 inputs at mixdown)
24 busses, 6 aux sends, stereo master buss
Full dynamic automation
Dynamics, 4-band parametric EQ and 4 VST plug-in inserts per channel

If I believed what you just wrote I would fist fight to be the first in line to buy the TASCAM 48.

X-48 is Tascam's first standalone 48-track Hybrid Hard Disk Workstation which integrates the best of both worlds: the stability and ease-of-use of a purpose-built hard disk recorder, with the GUI, editing features and plug-in compatibility of a computer-based digital audio workstation.
It boasts 96kHz/24-bit recording across all 48 tracks and 192kHz across 24 tracks. Yet the X-48 goes beyond mere standalone recorders – its built-in, automated 48-channel digital mixer, VGA display output, powerful editing functions and DVD+RW backup drive transform it into a complete integrated workstation.

You keep making mention of what the X-48 is. Will all of those who have logged in more than 24 hours on the X-48 promise please step forward and prove me wrong. I too would like to embrace the dream of the X-48 but I smell bullshit. Can you say "VAPOR-WARE?"

I cannot see the point spending $21,000 on a Radar V which only has 24 tracks and does not even have virtual tracks and has no mouse editing. Is Tascam that bad of a company?why would they make the X48 unuseable. What do you think gearslutz people?

I personally can't afford to spend 15 thousand dollars for a X-48 and good converters to be a beta tester for the X-48. I can for see a hopin x-48 forum on the horizon if the unit actually gets released. The RADAR forums aren't that exciting because there aren't many issues to discuss or argue about.

I don't think TASCAM is deliberately a bad company. They are what they are and I know how they do business. I just purchased a TASCAM DV RA1000 and knew what I was getting into based on discussions with users not TASCAM marketing.

Regarding converters-- they are like preamps and mics. There are many options to chose from and they are all not the same. Last night I did a shootout comparing my RADAR at 44.1K to the by TASCAM DV RA1000 at 96, 192, and DSD. In terms of quality of sound over a broad dynamic range the RADAR won! The RA1000 sounded great as long as the signal was good and saturated but didn't get near the top. This only tells me that the TASCAM converters are usless for me but I knew that before I bought it.

[skygod]

Originally Posted by midnightsun

I personally can't afford to spend 15 thousand dollars for a X-48 and good converters to be a beta tester for the X-48 ... Last night I did a shootout comparing my RADAR at 44.1K to the by TASCAM DV RA1000 at 96, 192, and DSD. In terms of quality of sound over a broad dynamic range the RADAR won!

Who won? The MFG brand name or the Nyquist converters? Some broad generalizations in this thread like TASCAM sucks and should not be in the high end forum shows a total lack of understanding of the issues at play.

IMO, and many of my peers out on the planet would agree with me that Nyquist converters remain at the top of the heap, notwithstanding, anything [Alesis HD24XR, Tascam 3200/4800, X48 etc digital storage/working devices] can sound that good with the right front end, like Lavry 24/96 blues or golds or whatever else out there. I think the issue here is NOT sound fidelity, and NOT musicality, and NOT all the other personal snobbish gearslut ancillary side issue side-track crap that can is always argued ad nausea ... IT is Reliability PERIOD!

Reliability = consistency over time

Validity = it actually does what it is designed to do /or measure + reliability index built into it

You cannot even approach validity with these products unless you are talking about Lavry or iZ RADAR Nyquist products, BECAUSE, they have worked out the bugs from an electrical engineering standpoint and have evolved their products to a technical point of excellence where VALIDITY actually exists and you have no need for external clocking devices like a Big Ben or other as a result.

Other manufacturers out there are out to make a clone and a fast dollar in a ripe market of differing economic classes might just want a piece of the pie. So they cut corners and rely on end-users/buyers to make the right connections with other gear to make their lower end purchases work. So instead of paying $15K-28K for a Yamaha 02R96V2 or DM2000V2 fully loaded, you pay one forth to a fifth of that and expect the same quality of engineering at 24/96? Not gonna happen! Yes it requires research, and yes it requires savvy and recommendations form other experienced users, but at the end of the day its all the same at the mix down and master if you've done it right. Snobs cannot understand this, especially those who grew up with all this technology and choices already at their feet since the late 90s. The rest of use growing up in the 60s 70s 80s had to experiment and be creative and work thru problems to make things work based on whatever audio problem was presented. We did NOT have forums to cry for everybody to solve our woes for us. Some very clever shit came out of these eras. Different generations and differing levels of experience and understanding … what can I say. Its all in the approach and attitude I guess.

Money in itself DOES NOT fix everything as you might have already surmised from the tone of this response, and even those with the money and the top shelf gear still cannot make it work right for themselves because they are just crappy audio engineers from A-Z and nobody can convince them of it otherwise because they already know everything based on everybody else’s experiences anyway.

I am constantly traveling to client sites all over the planet and I will be the first to tell you that up to eight HD24XRs are wonderful little units racked up in several SKBs in terms of ergonomics, but they are unreliable with all kinds of glitches. Subscribe to the Yahoo HD24XR forum and listen to the tales of woe, but even to these glitches, there are work-arounds if you avoid the pitfalls. Ergonomics is the tradeoff you pay for this. That of course IS NOT the primary issue of concern in a fixed facility with space, and racks, and elbow room, and cleanliness, and not constantly banging these around from one carrier to another in the worst climates and terrain etc. So the issue is NOT can an HD24XR or TASCAM 3200/4800/X48 sound as good on playback "from tape/disk storage" as a Nyquist 24/96 or 24/192 AES compatible converter, the short answer is that IT CAN with the right upgraded AD-DA/DA-AD front end (Lavry, Aurora, Apogee, RME whatever your flavor is insert here_____ etc]. Tradeoffs, tradeoffs, tradeoffs. So once again please who won again? Oh, I see ... that’s what I thought ... fuggouttahere … fuggedaboudit!

~skygod~

[foldback]

Originally Posted by skygod

Subscribe to the Yahoo HD24XR forum and listen to the tales of woe, but even to these glitches, there are work-arounds if you avoid the pitfalls.

I'm a member of the Yahoo HD24 forum and I have not read what you speak of but I'm not trying to argue with you about that or anything else. The majority of what I've seen in the Yahoo forum has been extremely favorable with very few faults or failures.

I have owned several HD24 and HD24XR. Have you owned and used these decks at all? Search the GS board. The majority of owner reports I've read have been positive but there are probably some folks out there with a hidden agenda spreading FUD.

My biggest fear is that Alesis will stop making this product, then I'll be forced to start laying them in deep because I love these recorders and depend on them and they work great.

I've only had one drive problem EVER and it was a drive that was given to me, I suspect it was problematic from the get go. One drive out of thousands of hours of use.

I run my decks on a quality pure sine UPS and they never give me problems, NEVER.

If you are doing remote recording you need some way to back yourself up. For me, that involves running two completely independent recorders. I do it on all critical jobs (jobs that pay $500 or more).

Each of my Alesis decks is installed in an SKB rack with two 48 point normalized patchbays. The first deck is either channel patched on whatever mixer I'm using or it's fed by a case of mic preamps. The second deck is driven directly off one of the patchbays so in case the first deck dies completely the second deck is independent and goes on recording. This also gives me a copy of my work to listen to after the client takes his drives.

This level of redundancy is critical and required. IMHO the person who uses lower priced equipment but makes sure they deliver the goods is much more professional than the person who uses a single expensive deck like the RADAR with no backup. If you want to be pro and use Radar for remote work you need two of them.

I just bought a brand new pair of HD24XR for under $3500 including sales tax. Both of these machines were flawless right out of the box. The converters in them are the same ones Lexicon uses for A-D on the $20K 960 reverb. If you do a search on the AKM converters used in the HD24XR you will find that a lot of manufacturers use them.

The converters are only part of the sound equation. There are many other components in the signal path. My tech bills me $225 for labor and $90 in parts to mod my Alesis decks. They sound better after he does his voodoo but it's not very extensive in the mod dept, the decks are damn good right out of the box IMHO. I drive the inputs with Grace m801 mic preamps and API preamps and the results are great.

I'm not speaking based on the experience of moe-rons or beginners in Yahoo forums, I'm talking about my experience. I just came off of a gig recording my own band using the HD24XR while I performed live. Space was more critical than whether the deck worked so I did not even have a UPS, it was an ultra small stage and I literally had gear stacked to the ceiling. Everything worked perfect and we recorded the whole four hour gig.

I use the Alesis Fireport to import the tracks off the HD24XR hard disk into my Protools system. The files never go through any more conversions before I hear them out of Protools HD. It works and sounds fantastic. I've done projects for extreme high profile clients and they keep hiring me. Perhaps a Radar would sound better but given all the variables I've experienced doing live recordings the HD24XR is an amazing value, a reliable performer, sounds very good and protects my clients best interest with redundant recording for an unprecedented low capital outlay.

Here endth the rant. Cheers and best of luck to all no matter what you use.

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by foldback

I have owned several HD24 and HD24XR. My biggest fear is that Alesis will stop making this product

I can't speak for Alesis, but it would appear that they have no good reason to stop making them. The Alesis group on Yahoo has grown to almost 1600 members now, and much of that growth has happened in the past two years. Considering that the HD24 has been on the market for over five years now, that suggests that they are still selling fairly well. I think Alesis is doing fine with this product.

With that said, though, every product has a lifespan. My biggest concern with the HD24 is that there may come a time when we can no longer easily acquire IDE drives. It seems that everything is making the switch to SATA now.

Originally Posted by foldback

The converters in them are the same ones Lexicon uses for A-D on the $20K 960 reverb. If you do a search on the AKM converters used in the HD24XR you will find that a lot of manufacturers use them.

Perhaps a Radar would sound better.....

Probably not. The Radar uses those same converters.

In any event, I'm with you on the HD24. It's probably the best gear purchase that I've ever made.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Gilliland

Probably not. The Radar uses those same converters.

Please don't imply that since they use one component that is the same, that they are the same converter. It doesn't work that way.

[zarembo]

Originally Posted by Gilliland

The Radar uses those same converters.

ah, that old myth. who keeps telling people that?

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by JOHN

Hi gearslutz People,
Which do you think is good for the money Radar V or Tascam X48 ?

RADAR

for so many reasons.

[jslstrat]

I have mine since 2002................Best sounding recorder as far as a hard disk!
Who cares about editing features!!! When will people start playing music togther>>>?Like bands use to do>>?????? And learn there intruments well enough to play>???
Uli Jon Roth ......

[cppi]

We use 48 tracks of RADAR in our mobile production truck and have gone through DA 98's, HR 78's, HD 24's as reduntant backup machines. The only thing these machine's have to do is be a redundant back up to the RADAR's, and NONE of them have done that without failing at some point! Hmmm the RADAR's are backing up the back up's!! The RADAR's have been rock solid for live (you only get it once) recordings. They have out lasted all their redundant back up machines. RADAR is in a class by it self and we would only consider buying the X48 only as a back up machine for our RADAR's or for budget down and dirty fly packs right now. Even if the X48 is reliable (time will tell) Tascam support still and will always suck and RADAR's suport will still be the gold standard. It's not apples to apples (apples to lemons maybe). Once time has tested the x48 we will probably will buy more RADAR's for the back up's, time will tell.

[foldback]

If I was going to switch hardware from what I'm using I would look very seriously at the Radar. The Tascam piece looks like a flawed design right from the start but the appeal of having 48 tracks in one box is very...... appealing.

WOW, an 80GB built-in hard disk. I guess that was big two years ago when this box was supposed to come out. The solution that Alesis used has worked very well for me, I love being able to rip out drives right now and stick in fresh ones without moving data around. Also the ability to make copies backup copies is huge.

Based on nine years of using Firewire drives for video projects I have a very difficult time imagining they will be reliable storage solutions for 48 channel multitrack digital audio files that are an hour or more long. Just like in the Alesis system, it's not the recorder that fails, its the cheap little consumer hard disks that are eaten alive from moving their actuators so far, so many times, so quickly, for long continuous time periods. The problem is not the MB/second of throughput, it's the way digital audio is broken up into small packets and distributed around the drive platters. Those tiny hard drive mechanisms are going bonkers trying to keep up with moving the actuator around.

I'm reminded of the old saying "if it looks too good to be true, it is".

I can't imagine Tascam support being any good. My SOP for buying Tascam gear is don't spend more than your willing to lose right away.

My last fear about the X-48 is embedded Microsoft anything. I don't want MS in my digital recorder. I don't trust them to be reliable or to care about my little application. On remote recording we only get one chance. IMHO, embedding MS in the machine is unnecessary these days unless you're trying to take a shortcut and use something that's just easily available. I have friends that do high level Unix programming. It's open source so there's no MS royalty fee, it's clean, reliable, and well documented. I suspect feature creep has caused Tascam to look at MS (if there is truth to this rumor).

One thing is certain, time will tell.

[heyman]

Another vote for the Radar....

You can pickup a Second hand Nyquist model for a fraction of the cost.. It will still be great and sound incredible at 44.1 /24 ..

Dont get caught up in the Hype about 192... Hear a Radar at 44.1 and it will beat most running at 192...

Rock solid and reliable for years to come..

Thank you IZ

[foldback]

I keep seeing all these referrals to inexpensive Radar systems, where are they?

Ebay?

Expiring minds want to know.

[Adebar]

Originally Posted by foldback

My last fear about the X-48 is embedded Microsoft anything. I don't want MS in my digital recorder. I don't trust them to be reliable or to care about my little application. On remote recording we only get one chance. IMHO, embedding MS in the machine is unnecessary these days unless you're trying to take a shortcut and use something that's just easily available. I have friends that do high level Unix programming. It's open source so there's no MS royalty fee, it's clean, reliable, and well documented. I suspect feature creep has caused Tascam to look at MS (if there is truth to this rumor).

This is a real important point and I wonder why Tascam decided for MS. Probably the reason for the big delay are problems with the OS. The X-48 was planed to be available last summer.

[skygod]

Originally Posted by Adebar

This is a real important point and I wonder why Tascam decided for MS. Probably the reason for the big delay are problems with the OS. The X-48 was planed to be available last summer.

I spoke to their head honcho at SANEWAVE -- (Vancouver, Canada?) circa Oct-Nov 2006 who assured me that they completed the hardware/software R&D and assured me it was 'up and running and fully functional as described,' and that they sent it back to TASCAM last year maybe as early as 2d QTR for MFG production/distro? Folks, the ball is allegedly in TASCAM's court. But who can believe anybody in this sheister business. Mackie 1200F? TASCAM X48? Sweetwater will gladly take you deposits though ... Hurry now, send in your credit card information. Hurry ... Your check's in the mail .... Hurry .... Of course I'll respect you in the morning ... Hurry .... No worries dear, I promise not to cum in your mouth ...



~skygod~

[skygod]

If you need 48 tracks, here's a good place to start:

http://www.soundbroker.com/RECORDING...istingid=31083

I rec'd this alert this morning in my mailbox and these will not last long at this price point. Hurry K-Mart Shoppers -- this is one helluva bluelight special




~skygod~