Recording an Orchestra.

[fifthcircle]

Haven't seen the X-Y pair, but I have seen an M-S pair as the center mic. It can work well, actually and can help solidify the center image a bit. The downside is that because it is over the orchestra, you can get some strange phasing issues from the sides if you aren't careful.

--Ben

[Corda]

Hi guys.

Thanks very much for all your comments, suggestions and ideas. As it happens, I actually managed to find a mobile recording engineer who was within my budget. I've listened to samples of previous recordings and discussed the sessions with them, and now they're booked to record over the two dates. It's a load off my mind, since now I have a far more experienced and knowledgeable group of people managing the sound aspect of things, but nevertheless thanks all the same for your thoughts on orchestral recording. If nothing else, it was fun to familiarise myself with the process.

[sonare]

If he turns out to be good you should thank him for saving your sanity and possibly your reputation as well!

Rich

[FunkFaker]

Sorry for the ignorance, but what are outriggers? How are they placed in reference to the decca tree?

Thanks,

Tommy

[klaukholm]

Outriggers are flanking mics 3-12 feet to each side of the decca, main pair or whatever you are using. They aim straigt forward and sometimes down into the group. they can be on a boom over the outside string stands or quite far back.
Omnis and wide cardioids are the norm.

kjetil

[Marbarbaar]

Originally Posted by Corda

Hi guys,

.........................
.......
'm going to try and make a useful documentary on the more technical aspects of making a film score/recording an orchestra, so that I can post it online and hopefully help people to make decisions about recording large ensembles of their own for the future............

So how's that documentary....? :-D :-D
I'm looking forward to it.

[masterfader]

My method of recording an orchestra is to use a large console with many aux sends for tracking. I physically separate the orchestra as far as I can (With a 12-aux mixer I once borrowed, I was able to separate all the instruments but I had to keep the high strings together). With each instrument individually close-mic'd, I then ran each mic to the mixer. The orchestra hears each other via the auxes and the conductor is in the control room with me over the talkback mic

[sonare]

Originally Posted by masterfader

My method of recording an orchestra is to use a large console with many aux sends for tracking. I physically separate the orchestra as far as I can (With a 12-aux mixer I once borrowed, I was able to separate all the instruments but I had to keep the high strings together). With each instrument individually close-mic'd, I then ran each mic to the mixer. The orchestra hears each other via the auxes and the conductor is in the control room with me over the talkback mic

For scoring I can see this working. For standard orchestral repertoire it would be disaster.

Rich

[MBishopSFX]

Originally Posted by tenor39

I was thinking of the "Glory" soundtrack. It was much more minimalist than his usual style, at least according to Stereophile. He may record 48 tracks, but how many actually are used in the final mix? I hear the 'tree in the "Glory" tracks, mostly because the soundstage is great and the phasing effects are minimal.

Well, even Michael Bishop has gone off the deep end in his latest recordings. Telarc is no longer a "purist" label. He has used the most bizzare combinations of mic's that I've yet heard of. How about Senheiser's and shotguns as an M/S pair? Or the Neuman dummy head x2 as the main mic's for surround cannon shots in the 1812 overture? Sorry, I usually believe the KISS priciple is the best way to go.

Where on earth have you gotten such bad information??? Sennheisers and shotguns in M/S? I don't think I've EVER used a shotgun mic, much less own one. The KU-100 was NOT the main mic for cannon shots either! Sennheiser MKH-20s were.

FYI, Telarc was never a "purist" label. Rather, the Less Is More rule always applied as it does still with Five/Four. To me, there is a big difference between Less Is More and a so-called "purist" approach. The latter comes across as a documentary recording (IMO) and not always very musical.

The list of mics used on any of my orchestral recordings has always been there in the CD/SACD booklet for all to see. It's typically a pretty short list, even with a separate direct-to-stereo and direct-to-6 ch surround setup going simultaneously.

.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by sonare

For scoring I can see this working. For standard orchestral repertoire it would be disaster.

Rich

Umm... For scoring it wouldn't work particularly well either... Perhaps the poster was talking about monitoring needs in a scoring session.

Scoring may have a lot of mics, but the basic techniques aren't that far off from more "traditional" forms of orchestral recording.

--Ben

[masterfader]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Umm... For scoring it wouldn't work particularly well either... Perhaps the poster was talking about monitoring needs in a scoring session.

Scoring may have a lot of mics, but the basic techniques aren't that far off from more "traditional" forms of orchestral recording.

--Ben

No, I was recording to the MTR (2 HD24s in a Master/Slave pair) from the mixer's Insert Send jack and then I ran the monitors through the aux sends. Now that I think about it, because the mixer had Group outs and Matrix sends, I could have run more monitor mixes! I just set up EQ and then ran the recorder. When I mixed, the orchestra was playing for a choir, so I had one subgroup as my Grandmaster Orchestra (with the 12 VCA's as masters for each instrument) and then the other subgroups as my masters for each voice type. It turned out alright. I got no complaints from any of the musicians about the monitors. I just panned the instruments so they appeared on the sound field as they would when the orchestra is on stage. In the control room, I had the conductor, the seating chart that I marked with channel numbers, and a metronome that I ran through the talkback system.

[joelpatterson]

That's right, I remember assisting on this session. For a cue, we had a ballerina fall from the ceiling, and land on a trampoline, and she was actually able to bounce in time to the metronome that was linked to a clock at the Naval Observatory, and then three French hens flew over to the French horns and, with their cellphones, called up the cellos to let them know their part was coming up. At the crescendo, a pizza truck crashed through a wall and Evil Knievel flew on his motorcyle over the timpanis and right into a gong, which was the final note of the piece. What label finally put that out? I forget, exactly...

[Plush]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Umm... For scoring it wouldn't work particularly well either... Perhaps the poster was talking about monitoring needs in a scoring session.

Scoring may have a lot of mics, but the basic techniques aren't that far off from more "traditional" forms of orchestral recording.

--Ben

Yeah but in Hollywood you have to have the gold plated and hardly obtainable "package enhancer" mic amp. Coupled with the prototype large diaphragm tube mic blessed by a talking llama and you might get an iota of respect from others watching the session. ---"Yeah, that session LOOKED impressive!"

It's all about respect for your package. Without respect for your package you are a nobody. Actually in 15 years the person will be a nobody, cause nobody done asked for them no more.

Yeah, in Hollywood, it's all about the package.

Are you in pursuit of the package? (clue--it is disguised as "art.")

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by MBishopSFX

Where on earth have you gotten such bad information??? Sennheisers and shotguns in M/S? I don't think I've EVER used a shotgun mic, much less own one. The KU-100 was NOT the main mic for cannon shots either! Sennheiser MKH-20s were.

FYI, Telarc was never a "purist" label. Rather, the Less Is More rule always applied as it does still with Five/Four. To me, there is a big difference between Less Is More and a so-called "purist" approach. The latter comes across as a documentary recording (IMO) and not always very musical.

The list of mics used on any of my orchestral recordings has always been there in the CD/SACD booklet for all to see. It's typically a pretty short list, even with a separate direct-to-stereo and direct-to-6 ch surround setup going simultaneously.

.

Michael, taking one of your tips from another post, I recently used three SF-1s on a choir behind an orchestra, and positioned the null to minimize bleed from the orchestra's back row. Wow. It mixed very nicely. I was able to get the choir to soar instead of getting lost in the back. Thanks!

[7rojo7]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

That's right, I remember assisting on this session. For a cue, we had a ballerina fall from the ceiling, and land on a trampoline, and she was actually able to bounce in time to the metronome that was linked to a clock at the Naval Observatory, and then three French hens flew over to the French horns and, with their cellphones, called up the cellos to let them know their part was coming up. At the crescendo, a pizza truck crashed through a wall and Evil Knievel flew on his motorcyle over the timpanis and right into a gong, which was the final note of the piece. What label finally put that out? I forget, exactly...

just had to read that again
I wonder how the OP's gig went.
and the dish ran away with Walters
I always like a little more less and a little less more in my soup
But I'll put up a coincident xy plus omni as my C pickup as far in front of the conductor as I can (less gain more orchestra) and half-omnis as LR a little wider than the norm, it all gets measured and in the end this and all spots get 'pinged' for later alignment nudgement. The C array alone gives me 90% of what I need for image and gives me great lows, 'pinging' give me mono compatibility. If I can fly, I'll use Brauner PhantomV for C, if not, Schoeps CCM5lg (want to demo the Josephson stereo mic for a one shot mic placement, then I would have to get 2 of the mono versions for LR) and usually CCM21 as LR, spots can be anything from LDC tube mics to ribbons (great for harpsichord) dynamics, I have a figure8 contact mic for gtr that's pretty nifty for Harp, if need be, I mount on foam and put it inside, I only need to reinforce the bottom anyway, pedal noise can be a problem, that's as close as I'll get to something.
Operettas get the same look but C goes in front of the podium and LR change as I always use LCR at the lip of the stage with the CCM21, Phantoms as center and CCM5 in omni as LR. I have one left over for a spot on the cello for recetitivo, but I almost never use these and if I do, they're ridiculously low.
192 inputs gives you 4 mics on every instrument +32 for your main array and ambience. How did that work out?

[KyleForte]

Originally Posted by Corda

Also, just to let people know, I'm based in the not-exactly-musical haven that is South Wales, in the UK. This has been another factor in my having limited success in finding a suitable and accessible recording engineer. If anybody knows of anybody who might be located within this region, let me know, but I've done some searching on the internet and found nobody within my price range (which is admittedly poor, but it's all I have to work with, give or take). There are a few people within a 40 mile radius, but they are professional mobile studios complete with mobile trucks and trailers. While this would be great, it's simply not an option. If anybody knows of anyone with a small but competent rig who is either based in Wales or could travel there relatively easy, let me know.


Thanks for everything.

I run a small recording company based in Manchester and travel all around the UK. We do classical/acoustic recordings at very reasonable rates. If you need any more recordings, check *Forte Sound & Media. Cheers, K.

[mata_haze]

Hello everybody,
I am in the situation of recording a 58 piece orchestra in medium (really good sounding) hall.
my mic list is as follows:
3x brauner classic phantom (cardioid)
2x earthworks QTC40 (omni)
2x coles 4038 (fig8)
1x neumann U87 (variable)
4x sennheiser MKH20
4x Lomo (no idea what model they are, but large diaphram)

I was thinking of using the 3 brauners on the decca and the 2x earthworks as outrigger, plus use the 4 sennheiser, 4 lomos for spot micing, coles on percussions. the neumann as "jolly" not sure what to use it for as yet.
any thoughts about using cardioids on DECCA and omni as outriggers?

Best,
Mata.

[klaukholm]

I would use the sennheisers as one main pair and one pair of outriggers.

[mata_haze]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I would use the sennheisers as one main pair and one pair of outriggers.

no DECCA at all?

Mattia.

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by mata_haze

no DECCA at all?

Mattia.

I'm with Kjetil on this one. Unless you have used a Decca tree before and are well acquainted with its idiosyncrasies, I'd stick with a main pair and outriggers.
As always, YMMV.

All the best,
-mark

[rumleymusic]

That is what I probably would do as well. Sennheiser's as mains and outriggers, maybe Brauner on Winds, Coles on Brass, Earthworks on percussion. Maybe U87 on harp if there is one.

Just remember to get your balance from the mains, and use spots sparingly.

You really need the right kind of mics and the right preparation for Decca.

[mata_haze]

Got it!
what would be the height of the main stereo pair and the outriggers (as guideline)?
shall I aim for an ORTF @ 10 feet?same for outriggers?

Best,
mata.

[klaukholm]

ORTF is a cardioid technique (just as decca is for omnis)
Do a spaced pair
read this document for some good explanations
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/da/~/m...oad/stereo.pdf

[mata_haze]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

ORTF is a cardioid technique (just as decca is for omnis)
Do a spaced pair
read this document for some good explanations
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/da/~/m...oad/stereo.pdf

VERY interesting document!
so you suggest an AB plus outriggers, and no spot mics at all.

I have timpani, harp ,woodwinds as well..
Thank you for the tips, are really appreciated.

Mata.

[klaukholm]

No, I would use spots for sure, but there are a lot of ways you can go there.

[mata_haze]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

No, I would use spots for sure, but there are a lot of ways you can go there.

Ok I understand,
I suppose considering the amount of mics I have I should mic all sections instead of trying to prefer certain instruments to others?
is my assumption correct?

BTW nobody said anything about the LOMOs I have in the list. are they not good? I actually like them very much in the studio...

Mata.

[klaukholm]

You will know if your assumption were correct during the soundcheck.
It all depends on the room, the players, the size of the strings, the reportoire and the style they play the rep in (i.e. are they playing a Karajan or Hogwood Beethoven)

Being inexperienced, keep it simple.
Maybe start with a spaced pair of cardioids on the winds (if they are 8), a card on the harp, one mic for the horns (coles) other spots depending on the context as outlined above

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by tenor39

This reminds me of a "producer" that thought he could record sections of an orchestra by themselves and then mix them together later. The resulting flat, 2 dimensional CD was the worst I ever heard. I refused the project because I knew this would happen.

I'm amazed at the requirements they want for this record. The resulting recording will be incredibly flat, with no soundstage or depth, phasing and comb filtering problems out the ying-yang, and almost impossible to edit until mixed down. I know you'd like to "educate" this guy, but probably can't. Have him listen to a Shawn Murphy soundtrack, done with a Decca Tree and just a few spot mic's.

Here's an article I wrote for a TV concert event. It's on the DPA website and was in Surround Sound Pro magazine. Too bad your producer can't be swayed.

We got a call to master just such a production. It was recorded in a small space with three to five instruments playing at a time and the producer wanted it to sound like a full orchestra playing under a good conductor. Oh well.