Choral recording feedback

[lyrictenor1]

Hi y'all...
Last night I recorded another concert of a choral group and want to get your feedback on the recording of one of the pieces from the concert.

The concert took place in a fairly live, medium sized church. The choir stood in the choir stalls in sanctuary in double choir formation (most of the music on the concert was antiphonal...however, the clip attached here isn't antiphonal). The choir being in the stalls of the sanctuary and not in the nave seemed to flatter the sound of the choir, but the some of the length of reverberation from the nave was lost.

Chain was Blue Bluebirds in ORTF, Studio Projects C4s in omni for the outriggers, all going through Studio Projects SP-828 pres----->Mbox 2 pro------> PT 8 LE on a Macbook pro.

No processing performed on the audio with the exception of rolling off the low end. This was a live performance.

[mathieujm]

I can't listen now, but looking to the photos, I can't imagine why you used outriggers ?
JMM

[richgilb]

I enjoyed listening to that. Quite direct sounding and smooth enough with plenty of noise from the stalls!

Can I ask how much of the C4 mics vs the Blue mics you dialled into that? I think I would have been happy with just a pair in the middle but I look forward to hearing how you came to make your decisions at mixdown. And why you decided to point them to the back, as opposed to down on the choir?

Interesting to note you used Blue mics, I sold a pair of Bottle Rockets with B4 caps and got a Soundfield because I could not bear to see such heavy mics so high in the air!

[lyrictenor1]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

Mathieujm: I used the outriggers to warm up the sound a little and to try to capture a little more of the room. To me the ortf pair alone sounded just a little too direct and bright to me (the Bluebirds are a little bright).

richgilb: Since the sopranos were in the front of the choir and b/c the men were farther in the back w/ not much in the way of the risers, I tried to reduce the distance delta to the capsules between the sopranos and the mens' sections. I've attached a snapshot of my mix window to give you an idea of how much C4 I dialed in... I've also attached a clip of just the ORTF mics.

[richgilb]

Yep, I'd have been happy with just the pair! Thanks for sharing that.

I'm getting some electrical clicking in the file, I think. What is it?

[mathieujm]

Great music and singers.

I understand why you addes the C4 when comparing your two samples.
For me the first problem is the lack of the low end. Why did you cut it ? Too much noise ?

The stereo image is not surprising because of the disposition of the choir. For a domestic listening the hole in the middle is not excellent. And there is a little too much level on the right.

Then to have a better harmonic representation of the sound (less sterile) in the far field I think you must choose better mics. The bluebird is more a mic for proximity vocals.

I would like to listen the C4 alone because I think they could do a great work in a small AB disposition.

Myself I had good results in similar situations with a pair of MC930. They can give you what is missing there in the low.

JMM

[lyrictenor1]

richgilb: I'm not hearing the clicks to which you are referring...

JMM: I cut the low end b/c it was pretty noisy at that church. The church is right on the corner of two major streets, so there is a lot of noise from cars that gets into the hall.

I'll post a clip of the C4s later when I get a chance. The group is repeating the same concert at another venue this coming weekend, which I will be recording. It's a fairly live acoustic, and I'll be using the C4s in AB omni for that concert.

I would like to pick up some better mics at some point, but right now I really don't have a budget to do so...

keep the comments coming, folks!

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by lyrictenor1

richgilb: I'm not hearing the clicks to which you are referring...

Probably my Dell laptop then that I usually use for the net, I was not listening via my Mac.

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

And there is a little too much level on the right.

JMM

I must admit I noticed this.

But I was so surprised you got a rich enough sound with low end mics (to my ears anyway!). As I said, I had the Blue Bottle Rockets with omni caps but sold them, partly due to a brittle sound. And the Rockets and B4 caps were more expensive, designed for hall recordings etc. When I saw the Blue mics in your picture before listening, I was expecting something less pleasant than that. So when you posted your second clip with the Blue mics only, I was definitely expecting something harsh, but it did not seem to be so. Yes, let's just hear the C4s now! I hope they are not spaced too far apart to sound good by themselves.

[amfortas2006]

I like ORTF alone much better.

But find the female part of the choir to be forcing their voices in the upper registers. In combination with their non vibrato up there it"s a bad combo.

Softer and more relaxed with a bit more of natural vibrato woud be my preference.

But I guess that"s a problem for the conductor to solve..

Thanks for the effort!

[lyrictenor1]

Per your guys' requests, the clip of theC4 outriggers in omni is attached. I forgot to mention that I used the 75hz Hi-pass switch on the C4s during the concert. For the purposes of listening here on gearslutz, I cranked up the volume quite a bit obviously.

Rich: Yeah, even though the Bluebirds are a bit bright, they didn't sound harsh to me. Was the top end of the Blue Rocket w/ the B4s just to "ping"-y for your needs? I haven't heard that mic before. I know the bluebirds use the B8 capsule...

Why do you guys prefer the ORTF mics alone in this instance?

[richgilb]

Pingy.....hmmm. I would say more crashy, but only just enough to consider getting rid. I also had the B6 for vocals, which was also a bit raw / toppy. Loved it on smooth male vocals, though. Razor sharp with low noise and high gain. I wonder if this is a Blue characteristic across the range.

I just replaced my Blue mics with some Elation KM201 mics. I hope to get some super smoothness from them. Looking forward to listening to this clip!

[mathieujm]

On speakers, I prefer the C4 alone. On headphones I prefer the bluebird alone to the C4 alone because of the better stereo image.
The C4 are great but with just a little too much air on the female voices.

JMM

[richgilb]

I'd have been happy with any combination here, C4 alone for me on earphones just beats the Blues alone, less swaying from left to right. Nice.

[lyrictenor1]

Hi again...I recorded the same concert in a different venue, but this time only using the C4s in omni, spaced at 40cm. This room is quite different that other room...

[lyrictenor1]

Any feedback, guys? I'm interested in your comments, as I'm always trying to improve! Thanks in advance...

[MichaelPatrick]

Love that last clip. Nice room, nice placement, nice singing.

[NorseHorse]

Very nice. thumbsup I agree with Michael.

While we're posting Beatis, here's another...

[mathieujm]

Very nice clip lyrictenor1. Great choir.
Just a little too much air in the voices because of the C4 diffuse field curve ?

Norsehorse, you want us to compare the two ? It will not be in favour of yours, musically and for the sound.

JMM

[NorseHorse]

Having worked with the director for several years, he would refuse a mix like LyricTenor's (which is also good). I can do either on request, and it pays to know your client.

The recordings are different, and I posted it because I find comparison/contrast interesting, and it was what I was working on yesterday. I'm hoping someone else might like to post a sample as well.

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by mathieujm

Norsehorse, you want us to compare the two ? It will not be in favour of yours, musically and for the sound.

JMM

Any elaboration on that, monsieur?

[amfortas2006]

Originally Posted by lyrictenor1

Hi again...I recorded the same concert in a different venue, but this time only using the C4s in omni, spaced at 40cm. This room is quite different that other room...

I like this clip and the church thumbsup
Acoustic much better, recording more pleasing to my ears!
And it doesn"t lean to the right side!

Still have a feeling that the singers are sitting on their notes a bit, instead of letting them vibrate by themselves. More noticable in the upper registers. Like strings who force the bow a bit while playing..

Maybe the ladies should try to relax their abdominal walls while singing?

But it is less of a problem in this acoustic and with this recording technique then it was in the first clip.

Well done!!

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by richgilb

Any elaboration on that, monsieur?

Ok
I really have a feeling of lack of liberty of the high voices. I think it was miced with ribbons ? the highs seems to be compressed and limited.

I just have the impression that this sound is to mask some defaults of the voices. Don't see any artistic justification.

And I just like better the live and the accuracy of lyrictenor sample, even if better sdc would have produce less sibilance and nicer highs

[jon_nes]

Hey LyricTenor1. Good to see you on here.
I definitely prefer the one with the Omni's only! Can't wait to hear your latest recordings!