Recording a Bigband in school

[Christof]

We're gonna be recording our Big-Band soon. The pieces we're gonna be recording are most of all popular songs (Mambo No. 5, Don't stop believin', Peter Fox "Haus am See"...).

We will be recording the rhythm section first, all other instruments will be recorded later (using headphones with the playback).
As the sound I'm after is quite bright and direct, i should probably close mic the instruments and try to keep the spill between the instruments low. (EDIT: I like this one: Himlaväsen)

The lineup
Differing from a usual big-band we have clarinets and flutes too. Being a school-big-band the size of the sections is also different. We got:

• 7 trumpets (playing max. 3 different voices)
• 3 trombones
• 3 alto sax
• 4 tenor sax (1 playing bariton sometimes)
• 6 flutes
• 3 clarinets

Our junior-bigband will be recorded too. It's quite similar - but we got no clarinets there, only 3 tenor sax and 4 flutes.


The setup
A) Placing the sections in a kind of circle (trumpets in the mid, trombones left and sax right, clarinet far left and flutes far right)
B) Placing the sections facing each other (like trumpets facing flutes / clarinets, sax and trombones sitting on both sides)

I didn't consider placing them similar to their position on stage, as this would probably raise the spill.

What would be your preference?

(EDITED - focusing on important things)


Choosing the mics
The collection of mics I could choose from:
LD condenser: 1x AKG C-414, 1x Gefell UM-57, 1x Gefell UM-92S, 2x Rode NT-1, 2x CAD M177, 1x AT 4033, 1x T-Bone SCT-800

SD condenser: 2x Gefell M-582/M-62 (tube, cardioid, nickel capsule), 5x Sennheiser MKH-405T (cardioid, 2dB rise around 5k), 3x Schoeps CM-060 Cardioid (solid state, capsule similar to MK-4), 1x Schoeps MK-4, 3x Rode NT-5, 4x Oktava MK-012 (hypercardioid), 5x Beyer SHM-20 (electret, smooth freq-resp., very good cardioid), 4x Beyer MCE-80/81 (electret, cardioid)

Dynamic: 4x MD-441, 2x MD-421, 3x BF-531, 2x BF-509, 1x EV PL-20, 2x Peavey PVM-520 (5db rise between 2k and 7k), 1x Beyer M-88, 2x ATM-25

I'd really like to know your recommendations!

(EDITED - focusing on important things)

[ghellquist]

Hmm. The combination is bound to be difficult:
- high-school band not used to be recording (nervousness)
- recording rythm section separately ( playing with headphones takes some training, the rythm will not follow the song )
- lots and lot of mics ( takes time to set up and a lot of time to mix )
- not the best of acoustics

I suggest a totally different route.
1) record the full ensemble, recording drums separately is bound to be too risky.
2) use the best sounding room you can find. Add gobos and stuff to make it as good as you can get it, but stop there.
3) aim for a stereo pair of mics, placed exactly right giving almost all of the sound. Move sections to get the right sound. Only add other mics if really needed
4) schedule several shorter sessions rather than one long. Rehearse in the recording room. Record everything, making people happy with the feeling of beeing recorded.

In effect, an old school approax: make it sound good, then record it.

// Gunnar

[Corran]

Yeah, you'd save yourself a whole lot of headache by recording everything at once. You are probably better off using your time to tighten up the ensemble rather than separately tracking everything.

A main stereo pair and spots would be the best idea. Close-mic the rhythm section.

[Christof]

I know what you mean. But recording it altogether in the recording room would have other problems:

• The drums would dominate and not sound as tight as we want to (remember: we're not doing swing, but pop/rock...-stuff). We have placed absorbers surrounding the drums already (about 8 inch rockwool) but the high frequency from the OHs still don't sound very good.

• The nervousness could be even greater, when an error from the rhythm or brass section would mean that we'll have to do another take again. Dividing this means, that we can work on the rhythm until it's fine. Of course we need to focus on a tight rhythm and timekeeping.

We actually will have short sessions. The rhythm section will do one song a session and the rest of the band will do two songs every session (the juniors will do only one song each).

Time to setup is a problem though, if I'd be recording on stage (as we will do multiple sessions). Because of that I'd prefer to do it in the recording room. I could leave nearly everything setup 'til the next session then. Maybe it would be best trying to get rid of some of the high-end-reverbation within the room (we need to do that anyways).

Some details regarding that room. I attached the floor-layout of the room to this post:

• long wall about 12m, a couple of absorbers on that wall
• width about 5-9m
• The roof comes down from about 3.5m from the long wall to 2.4m on the curved one
• The room on the right ("Regie") is our control-room.

I'm used to be working with quite a lot of mics. I know how to set them up (there are some pupils who know how to help) and I will take time for mixing. Of course it will take longer than just setting up a stereo-mic in front of the band, but I've been working live with quite complex setups and recording for several years already, so that doesn't seem to be a problem. So far I've recorded a Bigband just once though (with Barbara Thompson as a guest-soloist).

[leddy]

I recently recorded a big band gig that went great. Near-coincident cards for the horns (90 deg. about 10" apart), spot mics on the rhythm intruments (one per instrument), and a spot mic in each section for whoever was soloing.

If the bass player is playing upright, that adds some challenge. You'll want to gobo it some.

Have the whole band to multiple takes of each tune and pick the best ones.

If you overdub anything, overdub the solos. That's the biggest challenge for younger players.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by Christof

[*]The drums would dominate and not sound as tight as we want to (remember: we're not doing swing, but pop/rock...-stuff).

You could gobo the drums and use Steve Remote's knee mic trick. A single omni near the drummer's right knee between the rack tom, floor tom and bass drum. That will give a balanced kit sound that sounds close-mic'd enough for what you are doing.

(The drummer might need to learn to groove without bashing the crap out of the drums. A good drummer can groove with sticks on the snare and ride underneath a bass solo, let alone a big band).

[Christof]

I'm not sure, we'd be getting the sound we want to.
However - I'll be thinking about it.

But I'd really like some recommendations regarding my question about choosing the mics based on my proposal to close mic the instruments.

[Corran]

Is there any reason you want a bright, direct sound? Younger players usually do not benefit from that kinda sound, in my opinion.

[Christof]

Of course there are different tastes. When I'm thinking about swing, I'm mostly thinking about warm, smooth and silky. When I'm thinking about Jazzrock it's a different sound I'm after.
The sound I want is not overly bright (not like those synth-like sounds you may hear sometimes) and with a good bottom too, but not too round and smooth either. Difficult to describe. One more difference to classic bigband recordings: the balance between rhythm section and winds will be on par with each other, because that's what the pieces demand.

So it's for artistic reasons. I'm chasing that sound, because I think it suits the pieces and the style of the band.

Examples of some pieces (original versions - not Bigband arrangement).
Sometimes listening will tell more than thousand words...
Jan Delay - Feuer
Nils Landgren - SampleRayT
Journey - Don't stop believin'
Peter Fox - Haus am See
Lou Bega - Mambo No. 5
Other pieces will be "Watermelon Man", "Pick up the pieces".
The Juniors will play "Monster Rock", "Alright, o.k. you win", "Boom Boom", "Here comes the sun" (in a latin version) and a simple Blues in Bb. The (Double-) CD will also contain 8-10 songs played by rockbands.

[Christof]

I would still like to get some recommendations regarding my question about choosing the mics based on my proposal to close mic the instruments.

See the list of available mics and my proposal in my initial post.

[Hornblower64]

It takes years, or even decades, of experience for session players and engineers to produce good, coherent recordings using the techniques you describe. I think you should consider a more minimalist approach. Perhaps you could put up both setups simultaneously, and decide after listening. A secret: the best mixers do not necessarily use all the microphones that are put up. Even in rock mixes you could have 70-80% of the final sound be the main/ambient pair.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by Christof

I would still like to get some recommendations regarding my question about choosing the mics based on my proposal to close mic the instruments.

See the list of available mics and my proposal in my initial post.

Mic choices when close-mic'ing are going to depend a lot on the sound of the instrument/player/room/set-up/the sound you want/etc. It's going to be really hard for anyone to advise you on that.

[Christof]

Is there something in between using the main pair or close miking?
If I'd be using a spot mic for each section, this would be just mono. So 2 mics for each section sounds nicer.

O.K. - thinking about that (Main pair + 2 spot-mics for each section)
I wanted to pan the winds like they sit on stage (trp, trb, sax... spread).
If I setup the musicians like they sit on stage, the spill of trp / trb and sax would probably make it very difficult to use mics on the flutes / clarinets in front (if not very close miced).

Hm - what if I setup the sections facing each other: Trp and Trb sitting on one side and saxes, clarinets and flutes sitting on the other side? Using cardioids, a good seperation between the spot-mics should be possible. I could even place a main mic in between (using two figure-eights).

I probably would have to raise the trombones quite a bit in any case, as they are not playing very loud and 3 trombones vs. 7 trumpets is kind of an unfair game.

[chris319]

How are you going to record this? Live mix or multi-track? Do you have a mixer/sufficient number of preamps to handle your contemplated multi-mic setup?

The coincident pair + spot mic plan sounds like a winner.

[Christof]

We're gonna multitrack. Maximum simultaneous recording tracks: 24 (even 32 if I'm adding one optical connection)

The equipment:

• DAW: Reaper on i7 920 with RME RayDAT

• Preamps/Converters: 2x Presonus D-8 Preamp A/D, 1x Behringer ADA-8000
  + 2x M-Audio Octane (we will be using the Octanes and one Presonus, so we do not have to plug everything in and out between sessions

• ADAT Multicore Extender (24+8)
  
  
• 2x Oz-Audio Q-Mix (feeding 24 Outputs for headphones)

Mixing will be done in another room with a lot of very good plugins (like SSL Duende, UAD, Waves Gold, Lexicon PCM native, Relab LX-480...) and professional monitors 2x Klein & Hummel O198, 2x EMES Blue HR, Blue-Sky Sub

[Christof]

Three different concepts.

When using spot-mics I'm thinking about adding one in the middle sometimes as it seems difficult to deal with 7 (trumpets, sax) or 9 (clarinets + flutes) instruments in one row just using two mics. I may use MD-441 instead of the PVM-520/PL-20 on trombones.

Comparing the "spot-mic-solution" and the "close-miced-solution" the main difference is how to pick up the woodwinds.

The main mic would be the C414 (mid) and the UM92 (side).

[Christof]

You've given me good guidelines. After recording and mixing is done it's time for feedback:

We chose the setup shown in the third picture on the right of the last post. The only difference is, that we chose to put the trombones opposite of the rest of the band.

We mostly used the mics shown in this picture, and used gobos (10" rockwool + MDF-board in the middle) between trumpets, saxes and flutes to reduce spill between the mics.

The rhythm-section has been recorded first using techniques as if it was just a band-recording - including overdubs if necessary. We had some sessions for the winds, playing two pieces each time and doing several takes,so we could choose the best one.

Multiple mics have been such a blessing, because I could easily balance some parts or could even use a different take if there had been a problem. Using the 3-to-1-rule has been working quite good, though it has been difficult with the flutes and putting the trombones some distance away of course introduced some delay (I compensated that in one piece where I wanted to have a very compact sound).

Of course all this has been much more work than setting up two mics in the front of the bigband - but as the players are very young (starting at an age of 13 years) the goal to deliver a nearly flawless performance in one take would have been futile. It's a very different thing live - if there's been a mistake - who cares? It will be forgotten a few seconds later. But on a CD the same mistake will be heard over and over again. Therefore I have used all my mixing-skills to deliver a great performance - even if that kind of performance would not have been possible playing live. I'm really excited about the result!

I really would like to put some examples online - but as all the songs are copyrighted by their original composers I can't do that, sorry.

To make it clear: if I wouldn't have had a lot of experience with recording, mixing and live-sound beforehand - I wouldn't have done it. If I could not get hold on some decent mics (of course there are better ones..) I wouldn't have done it. If the acoustics wouldn't have been appropriate - I wouldn't have done it. Using very good monitors for mixing (Klein&Hummel) and having access to good plugins (UAD, Waves, SSL, Lex PCM native...) helped a lot. All mixing has been done with Reaper - and it has been a pleasure to work with!

[hbphotoav]

Not sure of the copyright laws in your country (I'm assuming you're in EU somewhere) but under US law, these is a provision for "fair use" of copyrighted material in situations like editorial, criticism, education, etc. Posting a short sample clip should be exempted for this forum, as you would not be seeking commercial gain or wide distribution, and the use would be for our (and your) education, critique and criticism. Then there's You Tube...

Your decision... but I'd be interested in hearing how young teenagers do in a tracking situation...

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Corran

Is there any reason you want a bright, direct sound? Younger players usually do not benefit from that kinda sound, in my opinion.

Yup! You're better off with a decent main pair (for a good ensemble sound) and spot the individual sections.

[rprecording]

Interesting...lot's of recent posts on recording high school jazz bands.

I just posted on exactly the same thing. Did a location recording for high school jazz band and an 11 voice singing group. Left a writeup on the setup I used.

I was very fortunate in that both the band and the singers I was working with are seriously talented. made for a really fun session.

Jazz big band and a darn good singing group

Hope you'll post your's when it's done. I'd enjoy listening.

[Christof]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Not sure of the copyright laws in your country (I'm assuming you're in EU somewhere) but under US law, these is a provision for "fair use" of copyrighted material in situations like editorial, criticism, education, etc. Posting a short sample clip should be exempted for this forum, as you would not be seeking commercial gain or wide distribution, and the use would be for our (and your) education, critique and criticism. Then there's You Tube...

Your decision... but I'd be interested in hearing how young teenagers do in a tracking situation...

We are trying to get some audio-examples licensed to use them on our webpage. When this has been successful I will post samples from different productions with our big-band, a gospel choir, bands and others there.

Stay tuned...!