About to Zero my bank balance, need some advice

[machineintel]

Well, not quite zeroing it, but I'm planning on spending about $3000 and I'm an undergrad student so it's not exactly pocket change!

I'd like to build a bit of a part time business for myself recording some of the school of music events on my campus and possibly other ventures as well. The main type of music being recorded will be solo or small group classical and the vast majority of it will be performed in a fairly small hall, about 100' from stage front to the rear of the hall, and maybe 70' or so in width.

My recording experience so far has been strictly pop/rock/hip hop/acoustic and has for the most part been in the studio, so this will be a learning experience for me. I've been devouring all the print and web information I could get my hands on for a couple solid months now.

The "Big List" of things to buy for me to get this kicked off is currently:

1. Pair of Beyer MC930. I think this would be a good pair for the music type listed, but should I be concerned about anything with them at all?
2. DAV BG-1
3. Sabra Som stereo bar
4. A small UPS, whatever works? Would you say one is really necessary?
5. A pair of K&M 20800 stands. Will 10' be high enough?
6. A two track backup recorder, along the likes of the Fostex FR-2 LE or the Marantz PMD661

My main converters (at least for now) will be in my RME Multiface and I plan on using the RME Global Record feature which I've read to be super stable (as with all RME designs).

The main item I'm having trouble deciding upon is the backup recorder. Currently I'm planning on using a balanced 'Y' cable between the DAV and my two recording devices, although the thought of buying mic splitters and using the preamps in whatever backup recorder I choose would give me the extra guarantee of being in record should my main preamp fail. This just seems way overboard to me, however.

The idea I'm more seriously toying with is ditching everything and just getting a Sound Devices 702. But even though it's sound devices, I still slightly cringe at the thought that a critical recording would be in the hands of a single piece of gear... Someone please talk me into or out of this.

I'm planning to charge $90 for a stereo recording of a two hour performance, which would include editing and 'mastering'. Does this seem reasonable?

[boojum]

SD - FWIW: I have three of them: 2 772's and a 788T. I was running a four track recording with the two 722's C-linked when I accidentally pulled them off their table. They fell three to four feet. They did not miss a beat. The recording was completely intact. I have had issues with the 788T with kernel exceptions but have identified the cause and notified the manufacturer.

In short, it is not the best thing in the world to bank on one machine without backup, but if you must, SD is a very good bet.

The Beyers are good mics. Many have had good results with them. You will not need a UPS with the SD. Just a mic stand, the SABRA-SOM bar, cables and mics. Go get 'em!

[Baithak]

Hi Machineintel:
You will need a backup recorder. If after getting the 702 you have no money left for a cheapie backup then here is an alternate solution.

If you like the conversion and pre quality of the SD recorders but can't or don't want to buy their recorder, you can always get the newly released USBPre2 as your front end. The SD box will also make a nice monitor controller back at home.

With this box as the front end you would have two choices:

Option 1.
Main recorder Korg MR 1000 is to my ears the best sounding two track recorder if fed with external pres. It can do most PCM frequencies plus the 5.88 MHz DSD which is just really a nice sounding format. You can then use the USB output to a computer of your choice for the backup. Or get a cheapie like Sony PCMD50 as your backup recorder and feed it from the SPDIF output of the USB Pre2.

Option 2.
Get two of any combination of the following :
Marantz 661/ Tascam HSPD2 / Sony PCM D50. All seem to have SPDIF i/o so you will be using them primarily as bit buckets from the SD output.

FYI: I have used the SD 744 and 788 as my primary machines for about six years now and except for one hang on the 788 never been let down. I have also used the Korg MR 1000 as the two track backup for four plus years and it too has never stopped in the middle of a session.

Good luck with your new avocation,
Baithak

PS: Another two year old thread for your reference :

Question SD702 vs Grace and macbook optical questions
SD702 vs Grace and macbook optical questions

[machineintel]

Ahh, now my backup recorder choices even more complex!

Where do the majority of you remoters make the split between your main and your backup recorder? Perhaps if I start on that it will make my overall decision quicker. Pre-preamplifier, Post-preamplifier, Post A/D? If you're taking the split post A/D, which A/D converters are you relying upon?

Thanks to both of you for the sound advice.

[SynthLine09]

What I'm planning on doing soon is purchasing a mixer with direct outs, sending the direct outs of my external pre's to a hard disk recorder, then sending the master bus out of the mixer into a small 2 channel portable recorder. Though this rig seems like it might be out of your budget just slightly at the moment.

You seem to have a well thought out rig though.

[machineintel]

It's not really out of my budget, but I think that wouldn't really be necessary for me as I'm only planning on recording two tracks.

[SynthLine09]

Originally Posted by machineintel

It's not really out of my budget, but I think that wouldn't really be necessary for me as I'm only planning on recording two tracks.

Ah, I should read the thread more thoroughly

[machineintel]

No worries! It was almost a sleep-inducing post length

[John Willett]

For the back-up recorder I would certainly seriously consider the Edirol R-44 or the Tascam DR-680.

I know the Edirol is a 4-track and the Tascam an 8-track, but they are within budget I think and the extra tracks can certainly come in useful (EG: ORTF pair with omni outriggers).

My own rig is the Nagra VI, but the back-up I am considering is the Tascam 680.

For mics. I would certainly also look at the MBHO range. I would put the quality in the top range with Schoeps and Neumann, but their distribution chain is much shorter and they sell for a much lower price. Certainly for classical - high quality but not too expensive - they would be high on my list.

I hope this helps.


Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[ghellquist]

My two cents.

Get the 702. Get two of the largest capacity batteries ( get the Sony ones, copies are so-so ), one extra power supply ( the cable and contact from the power supply is the weakest link in the whole chain ) and extra memory cards.
Skip the backup recorder, the 702 on its own will be more reliable than the contraption of several recorders and Y-cables and stuff.

As for mics, get the best you can afford. I have never ever regretted getting the ORTF pair of Schoeps mics I run ( the mic is called MSTC64 ).

[joelpatterson]

Yeah... back-up, schmack-up... but in the case you do decide to use some kind of handheld stereo thing for backing up, here's some advice that comes from bitter experience: don't prop it on an empty beer glass, on a table in a raucous club, and shuffle a bunch of sugar caddies around it and hope it will be okay... this kind of thing just does not end well, believe me.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Yeah... back-up, schmack-up... but in the case you do decide to use some kind of handheld stereo thing for backing up, here's some advice that comes from bitter experience: don't prop it on an empty beer glass, on a table in a raucous club, and shuffle a bunch of sugar caddies around it and hope it will be okay... this kind of thing just does not end well, believe me.

Spoken like a true pro!

[Richard Black]

Just 2 cents here, but as it happens my recording ventures tend to be similar to those of the OP, and my rig came to a similar budget or a little less: it consists of

Royer SF-12
Home-built dedicated mic amp for same (completely flat, non-adjustable, gain of about 200 as far as I remember)
Edirol R-09
Drop-dead mic stand which I was very lucky to pick up second hand for the price of a budget CD, plus cheap and cheerful mic isolation mount.
Various headphones/earphones in the $100-$500 range.

I've actually got both R-09 and R-09HR, so I take both to the gig as backup. I don't record to both, but at least if one fails to power up or something I can plug the other in. I run them off batteries: the mic amp is currently mains-powered but that's only cos I'm too idle to put together a simple battery pack for it to provide ±15V.

Funnily enough, though the R-09HR is an improvement over the earlier model in every other way, the pre-HR's performance via line in is slightly better, the only drawback being that overload headroom is only 2V.

[hughesmr]

Beyers are a good choice in this price bracket. Might also look at the Shure KSMs. I won't disagree with those that say to drop as much good coin on good mics as you can ... I certainly did and have never regretted it..

DAV is a winner. Sure, run balanced Ys to two recorders.

I use the Korg MR1000 regularly ... has been really solid for 3-4 years now, expect once when it hanged when reformatting the HD. Luckily that wasn't minutes before the performance! But anyway, get a good sounding reliable main recorder (e.g. Korg DSD or SD box) ... as for backup, view it as a backup, so something less pricey that will capture 24-bit 2-ch PCM with reasonable quality is what your budget suggests .... a la the Edirol, Microtrack, etc.

And BTW, your fee is too low. If you're going to spend the $$ and the time to produce a good product, charge for it. The folks who want cheap recordings already own sh*tty handhelds, and you're not gonna convince them to come over to you. However, the market that wants GOOD recordings recognize that you get what you pay for.

Best of luck!

[machineintel]

Thanks again to everyone for the knowledge!

I have checked out the KSMs and while the option of mechanically switchable omni/card sounds awesome, as silly as it sounds i chose not to go with them due to the color since i'll be sticking to the classical world for the most part and the dull black of the beyers works in that regard. (Note - this isn't the main reason i chose them though before people start butting about nothing mattering except the sound!!)

And John - thanks for the tip for MBHO mics. Haven't heard of them before. I'm going to stick with the beyers as they seem like a safer first pair but hopefully i'll be able to browse shops for a pair of the MBHOs once i start making some cash back in the initial investment.

I'm leaning much more heavily towards the SD 702 coupled with a cheap SPDIF backup now. Maybe Edirol, maybe a multitrack for the backup...I don't think it really matters as long as it works since it'll be a dig input.

From what I've been reading the pres on the SD 7 series are awesome, but is there anyone out there that's compared them directly to the DAV pres?

Also, regarding the pricing, I know that $90 a night is super low but the thing is a lot of the gigs i'll be doing will be recording students for senior recitals and whatnot so like me, their budgets will be on the down low as well. There's also another engineer who's been doing quality classical recordings in town and his price is not much higher than mine. I'm not trying to undercut him but since I'm the 'new guy in town' i figure I should start low and work my way up. So I'm pretty limited by the market unfortunately...


Does anyone have any non-gear related advice for starting off in the classical remote world? Advertising, dealing with clients, common mistakes, what brand of gaff tape to buy...

[SynthLine09]

Originally Posted by machineintel

Also, regarding the pricing, I know that $90 a night is super low but the thing is a lot of the gigs i'll be doing will be recording students for senior recitals and whatnot so like me, their budgets will be on the down low as well. There's also another engineer who's been doing quality classical recordings in town and his price is not much higher than mine. I'm not trying to undercut him but since I'm the 'new guy in town' i figure I should start low and work my way up. So I'm pretty limited by the market unfortunately...

This is not super low- especially for this market. My school charges $80 for the students to have "audio services" at my school to record the recital. I charge 40 for recitals, and 50 with video. It might be "cheap" by "professional" standards, but you better believe I have a ton of clients due to word of mouth.

[chris319]

Beyers are a good choice in this price bracket.

Their S/N ratio of 71 dB doesn't look good to me.

Might also look at the Shure KSMs.

Now you're talking (S/N 80 dB).

as silly as it sounds i chose not to go with them due to the color

It doesn't sound silly. It sounds ridiculous! You're passing up a good mic for the money. Lordy, get some black nylon net and make some mic cozies for them.

[chris319]

For $688 you can get an MBHO 648 body ($359) and the capsule of your choice ($329). And they are BLACK. Deep, dark, sexy BLACK

For $519 you can get the 603 transformerless body. Total: $848.

MBHO Microphones Handmade in Germany, Specializing in small diaphram mics - - US Toll Free @ 1.866.235.0953, Ph. 813.746.4058

There is also the Oktava MK012, available in BLACK. It is customary to have the internal electronics rebuilt in these mics by any number of shops:

http://oktava.com/oktava?b=1

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by John Willett

For mics. I would certainly also look at the MBHO range. I would put the quality in the top range with Schoeps and Neumann, but their distribution chain is much shorter and they sell for a much lower price. Certainly for classical - high quality but not too expensive - they would be high on my list.

I hope this helps.


Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

And this advice might also lead American-based members to the Audix SCX-1, them having the same capsules?

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by John Willett

For the back-up recorder I would certainly seriously consider the Edirol R-44 or the Tascam DR-680.

I know the Edirol is a 4-track and the Tascam an 8-track, but they are within budget I think and the extra tracks can certainly come in useful (EG: ORTF pair with omni outriggers).

My own rig is the Nagra VI, but the back-up I am considering is the Tascam 680.

Why don't people ever seem to use a second laptop? Seems cheaper and more flexible, particularly if you already have the second laptop? Do firewire cable splitters / junctions not exist?

[JonesH]

Don't think so in any practical applications. You could split adat though. I know that BIS works with two laptops for recordings.

[machineintel]

Originally Posted by richgilb

Why don't people ever seem to use a second laptop? Seems cheaper and more flexible, particularly if you already have the second laptop? Do firewire cable splitters / junctions not exist?

I don't get what you're referring to. Do you mean splitting the firewire cable from an interface to go to two separate laptops? Or splitting the firewire cable from the sound devices output to two separate hard drives? Neither of these would make sense or work as FW communication is a two way street...

[machineintel]

Originally Posted by chris319

Their S/N ratio of 71 dB doesn't look good to me.

Thanks for pointing this out. I was comparing the self noise specs of the MC930 vs the KSM141 since both manufacturers explicitly state these measurements as A weighted equivalent SPL. Both are excellent in this regard with the beyer at 16dBA and the shure only slightly lower at 14dBA.

The SNR specs of the beyer are a bit ambiguous. They're not using the common calculation of SNR = 94 - self noise even though they specify their ref at 1Pa. Maybe they chose to use a different weighting (CCIR?)for this measurement? Who knows...

[chris319]

I don't think that's a self noise spec you're looking at with the MC930.

[machineintel]

http://north-america.beyerdynamic.co...30_DB_E_01.pdf


Signal-to-noise ratio rel. to 1 Pa . . . . . . . 71 dB
A-weighted equivalent SPL . . . . . . . . . . . 16 dB

I assumed it was the self noise spec since it's given as "A weighted equivalent SPL" and it's directly below the SNR spec. I can phone Beyer to be certain but I'm not sure what else the spec would possibly be referring to.

[chris319]

Originally Posted by machineintel

http://north-america.beyerdynamic.co...30_DB_E_01.pdf


Signal-to-noise ratio rel. to 1 Pa . . . . . . . 71 dB
A-weighted equivalent SPL . . . . . . . . . . . 16 dB

I assumed it was the self noise spec since it's given as "A weighted equivalent SPL" and it's directly below the SNR spec. I can phone Beyer to be certain but I'm not sure what else the spec would possibly be referring to.

That second spec has me confused as well. You would expect it to be 94 dB. I know of one other mic manufacturer that uses a reference other than 94 dB, but most use 94. Those numbers add up to 87. If their reference were 6 dB under 94 then it would be 88 dB, which makes a little more sense but why not use 94? Still, the S/N ratio as stated is not the best in the world.

[machineintel]

Like I said, I think it's probable that they used a different weighting for the SNR spec. I have no idea why though. If you check out spec sheets for mic manufacturers that list both CCIR and A weightings (gefell for one), the CCIR weightings are generally about 10dB less than the A weightings which would make the beyer SNR spec more understandable.

Also, I think you'd be hard pressed to find many SDCs with noise floors lower than the beyers actually. 16dBA is really good. For instance, even the Schoeps CCM4 has a noise floor of 15dBA: Compact Microphone CCM*4 - Specifications - SCHOEPS.de

Only 1dB lower than the beyers!

[chris319]

Originally Posted by machineintel

Like I said, I think it's probable that they used a different weighting for the SNR spec. I have no idea why though. If you check out spec sheets for mic manufacturers that list both CCIR and A weightings (gefell for one), the CCIR weightings are generally about 10dB less than the A weightings which would make the beyer SNR spec more understandable.

Also, I think you'd be hard pressed to find many SDCs with noise floors lower than the beyers actually. 16dBA is really good. For instance, even the Schoeps CCM4 has a noise floor of 15dBA: Compact Microphone CCM*4 - Specifications - SCHOEPS.de

Only 1dB lower than the beyers!

Again, I don't think you're looking at a self-noise spec there. If you make an apples-to-apples comparison of the S/N ratio (where the reference is explicitly given as 1 Pa, or 94 dB SPL) it comes out behind other quieter mics.

[machineintel]

Really didn't want this to turn into a pissing contest but for the Schoeps CCM4 it clearly says:

Equivalent noise level (A-weighted) 15 dB-A
Signal-to-noise ratio (A-weighted) 79 dB-A

And 94dB - 15dBA is (after a quick visit to my HP 35S and a drumroll...)

79dBA!

Which "other quieter mics" are you referring to?