Another Kind of Blue - the Latin Side of Miles Davis / The Remotester's thread

[Dzoing]

Sorry for being late: I just download the files right now...

"All Blues Watermelon" is really great. So What too. That bass sound is very impressive and cut very nicely through my VERY small Mobile Computer speakers. Becomes a bit agressive when soloing though, as it is cuting like a knife... The piano sound also is excellent and clear. An upright if I understood correctly? What model/brand is it? How did you eq it during the mix?

[Remoteness]

If I understood you correctly, the piano was not an upright. The bass was an upright.

We mixed that record a long time ago. I cannot remember how I EQ'd the piano but, I can tell you this... I don't look at the frequencies or numbers when I EQ. I let my ears do the EQing. A mix is like a suit with a lot of pockets. I try to fit the instruments in different pockets without any one of them over lapping the next. EQ and compression are a big part of it.

[Dzoing]

I agree about EQing in the mix. My question was more something like: "How did you get that grand sound on an upright!?" And the answer was: "We played a grand insteed of an upright!"
Thx. And again: great job!

[blackwatch]

Steve,

Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to you!

Your posts are so very pleasing and mentally elevating; like: soaking-in years of incredible experience and knowledge described in the multi-dimesional way that you do so well. You define what is to be Professional

Peace & Love & Respect,
Michael Thomas
NewYork

[Remoteness]

Wow, Mr. Thomas,

That was a very thoughtful post. And, thank you for saying the things you said…

I’m not sure if I deserve all of that praise, but I surely appreciate it very much.

I trust you and yours are having a Merry Happy!

Have a Happy Merry too – It’s on me!

All the best in 2007!

Thanks again, Michael.

[pianoman]

Steve,

Now that this thread has been revived (and as a new member, I'm glad it has!), here's a really specific observation/question for you, if you don't mind. I'm going through a "teething phase" in miking my piano. In terms of specific comparison to "Another Kind of Blue" I find the piano sits perfectly in the mix for what you're trying to accomplish. As a solo piano or working with only a drummer, I'd want the sound more upfront (not just volume or mix) and almost "larger than life", just as you achieved in all your solo instruments in "Another Kind of Blue". I'm using AKG 414s (as were you) for my Steinway Model M. I only possess XLS, not your TLIIs. I've tried positioning the mics behind myself playing and positioning the mics in the room far from the piano and am most satisfied with the sound when the mics are positioned near the piano (around the rim). Removing the lid is not an option. I'm pointing one mic towards the far end of the bass strings and the other mic at the hammers (near the middle). I'm angling at (eyeballing) 110 degrees to avoid phase problems. I notice that from the rim the closer into the piano the mics get, the bigger the sound gets but towards the point of muddiness. And the farther away the mics get, the more subdued the sound gets to the point of distant and dullness. Trying to find "the right spot" is tough. Reproducing it in between sessions of students (my piano does double duty as the lid is closed when I teach) is even tougher (even given the stickies on the ground). Am I going about it the right way? Are there techniques for having the mic less sensitive to placement or any "golden rules"?

[Remoteness]

You know what? I'm glad you’re here! I love when new members find this forum.

Before I blow my own horn I just want to say that there are plenty of great ideas and accepted wisdom on this topic.

Since I do a lot more live recordings in front of audiences than in the studio my options are a bit restricted. I tend to place the mics much closer to the piano than if I was recording it in the studio. We usually close mic near the hammers via Rowi clamps or by cradling with Gaffer’s tape. We sometimes play with the positioning depending on what the producer or artist is looking for. Leakage also plays a big part on where we end up placing those mics.

You can get a more upfront, "larger than life" sound by the right combination of performer, instrument used, the right room tone, and of course perfect mic placement.

Tell me more about the room you’re using – Size, tonality and such. Where is the piano setup in the room? Or are you asking general questions? Once we address these things we can talk about mic placement.

Have you tried using one mic? I like the sound of the piano when you place a mic near the curve of the piano. You can certainly get a “big sound” placing a mic there.

Try finding that perfect place – Spend some time with an associate or two. Have one play the piano; have another move a mic around while you sit in the CRM evaluating the various positions. Spike the floor where you liked or disliked the sound. Maybe a green tape mark could mean “goodness” and a red tape “badness.” Once you found a few sweet spots add another mic to the equation. Always refer to mono when you’re assessing multiple mics.

I hope others will chime in – Don’t think it’s only about “Another Kind of Blue.” All thoughts and concepts are welcomed!

[pianoman]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

You know what? I'm glad you’re here! I love when new members find this forum.

...

Tell me more about the room you’re using – Size, tonality and such. Where is the piano setup in the room? Or are you asking general questions? Once we address these things we can talk about mic placement.

Thanks so much, Steve. Your other suggestions are already well taken. Here's specific detail about the room. The dimensions are 30' long by 11' wide by 9' high with the piano at one end of the room. The lid opens out so the piano sound travels the full 30'. There's an opening between that room and the front hall, which has a partially raised ceiling (roughly 20' high). Please forgive my "artistry" (true story -- I nearly flunked penmanship) in the attached pdf which attempts to diagram this.

The floors are hardwood in the piano area and ceramic in the hall. The tone sounds live, but not overly so. The piano has a big, rich, resonant sound in the room. That's what I'm trying to capture.

[mastermix]

Just had to bump an awesome thread! The two posted MP3's are phenomenal... and the technical info as well... gonna have to pick up that disc!

Thanks Steve!

[Remoteness]

No, thank you for noticing this thread...

Do you have any questions or thoughts about my process?

Did you find it by clicking on a tag? If so, which tag got you here?

[mastermix]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

No, thank you for noticing this thread...

Do you have any questions or thoughts about my process?

Did you find it by clicking on a tag? If so, which tag got you here?

Thoughts on your process? I think it's awesome that you captured what I'm hearing considering the conditions. Sounds killer on the Tannoy FSM-U's/NFM-8's/Auratones here at work... AND through the speakers on my PowerBook G4! Definitely something to strive for!

I found the "Hall Of Fame" tag that led me here...

I'm in Jersey, so if I'm ever in your area I'd like to visit!

[Remoteness]

Yes, the conditions at that venue are quite interesting -- Very tight quarters; Monitors blasting into the mics; Not a lot of time to change over to the next act.

If you like this recording, Half Note Records Just release part two from the same live date... It's called, "Sketches of Spain y Mas: The Latin Side of Miles Davis."

I recorded, engineered and mixed a totally "studio" sounding recording from the same club with Gil Goldstein called "Under Rousseau's Moon." Man, I cannot stop listening to ths recording. Randy Brecker and Mike Mike Mainieri were both very pleased with the "studio" quality of the recording. Our producer told us that Mike couldn't believe it was a live record even though he performed on it. Well, that's what happens when I remove the room mics from the mix. "Another Kind of Blue" had quite a bit of room tone in the mix. "Under Rousseau's Moon only had about 2 to 5% room tone in the mix.

I cannot say it enough -- It's all about the mics you pick and their placement.

With that said, there's no doubt in my mind that these mixes sound equally as good through laptop speakers as it does on your Tannoy FSM-U's/NFM-8's/Auratones at your place of work...

I also check my levels and blend in mono through a small speaker positioned about six feet behind my skull. I A/B my nearfields and that single rear speaker thoughout the mix session. If I'm not mixing on board one of my mobile units (or in a studio that doesn't have a similar setup -- usually not!) I make sure we wheel in a Studer two-track, place it behind my mix position and feed the two mix through it. I've also have setup a laptop or TV monitor when appliable.

FYI, I've added "Hall Of Fame" and the "best of RPIAM&LR" tags to may of threads on this forum.

What part of Jersey are you from? You should drop by one of these days or come to one of our gigs.
PM me if you find the time.

[mastermix]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Yes, the conditions at that venue are quite interesting -- Very tight quarters; Monitors blasting into the mics; Not a lot of time to change over to the next act.

If you like this recording, Half Note Records Just release part two from the same live date... It's called, "Sketches of Spain y Mas: The Latin Side of Miles Davis."

I'll have to get both. Under Rousseau's Moon too.

I cannot say it enough -- It's all about the mics you pick and their placement.

True! What were the EQ mag articles that you describe the Virtual Gobo techniques? I know I kept all those back issues for a reason...

With that said, there's no doubt in my mind that these mixes sound equally as good through laptop speakers as it does on your Tannoy FSM-U's/NFM-8's/Auratones at your place of work...

I also check my levels and blend in mono through a small speaker positioned about six feet behind my skull. I A/B my nearfields and that single rear speaker thoughout the mix session. If I'm not mixing on board one of my mobile units (or in a studio that doesn't have a similar setup -- usually not!) I make sure we wheel in a Studer two-track, place it behind my mix position and feed the two mix through it. I've also have setup a laptop or TV monitor when appliable.

All good tips/techniques...

What part of Jersey are you from? You should drop by one of these days or come to one of our gigs. PM me if you find the time.

Jersey Shore, Asbury Park. I live about six blocks from the Stone Pony and can see the Paramount/Convention Hall from my bedroom window. Definitely would like to stop through... I've seen info about a few gigs on here that looked like a blast. Thanks for the offer!

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by mastermix

...True! What were the EQ mag articles that you describe the Virtual Gobo techniques? I know I kept all those back issues for a reason...

I talked about the April 2001 article and posted pictures of the diagram corrections (that I'm sure no one connected to the original article) in a thread called "Overhead mics. .... need to upgrade..HELP!"

They printed the correction (June 2001) two months after the article ran. I begged them to run the fix the following month, but they could not comply.

[mastermix]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I talked about the April 2001 article and posted pictures of the diagram corrections (that I'm sure no one connected to the original article) in a thread called "Overhead mics. .... need to upgrade..HELP!"

They printed the correction (June 2001) two months after the article ran. I begged them to run the fix the following month, but they could not comply.

I'll look back through the old collection.

I've already gone through about five of the tagged threads today... Gearslutz threads can be an audio education in and of themselves!

Too many people are looking for the quick fix, the recipe... sit down, shaddup, and read some threads!

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by mastermix

I'll look back through the old collection.

I've already gone through about five of the tagged threads today... Gearslutz threads can be an audio education in and of themselves!

Too many people are looking for the quick fix, the recipe... sit down, shaddup, and read some threads!

I hear you loud and clear...

Man, Most of us never had the mentors to follow or prove different. Gearslutz.com gives everyone an chance to learn sometime special or improve on what has been stated.

It's simply awesome!

[Remoteness]

It looks like we shall be doing another live Conrad Herwig record in March 2007 and part two from the 2004 session called "Sketches of Spain y Mas: The Latin Side of Miles Davis"is already out in the stores...

I haven't heard the "Skectches" record yet -- I cannot wait to hear how it came out since I mixed it over two and a half years ago.

If anyone wants to come by the March date, please PM or email me when we get closer to March.

[Remoteness]

Bumpage...

What I stated still stands -- If anyone wants to come by the March date, please PM or email me ASAP. I cannot have too many folks hanging around unless we create a schedule, but I need to know sooner than later.

The show is called, "THE LATIN SIDE OF WAYNE SHORTER" featuring EDDIE PALMIERI, CONRAD HERWIG, BRIAN LYNCH & OTHERS.

[drumdunn]

Hey there remoteness,
As I said in a myspace email, really great work on Conrad's latin side of Miles stuff! I would love to take you up on the opportunity to see you at work in the upcoming latin side of wayne shorter concert at the blue note this month! Can I come by on the 16th? What time would be good to check out the setup and such? Thanks again for all of the insight into your techniques.
Joey

[Remoteness]

It's very cool to see you became a GS member and that this is your first post.

You can come by anytime after 12 noon. That's when we start running our cables and set up the truck and stage. Sound check should be around 4PM. It would be wise to show up way ahead of sound check. Doors are at 7PM and the first set is around 8;30pm, but check the club's schedule to make sure.

[Remoteness]

We worked on the Latin Side of Herbie Hancock about a month back.

Duke Markos (Thursday) and Jon D'Uva (Friday) handled the recording engineer duties for the two day four set live performance recording with "The Bread Mobile" and ASL crew.

I was on location with "Jethro" and crew doing a two day five band (live to tape) video shoot for the Sundance Channel...

More about that awesome show will be posted in another thread once I come up for air.

[boojum]

Marvelous recording of a great session. I hope it is not a disincentive to me.

Years ago I watched a fellow do the Sunday NYT crossword puzzle in ink on a blank piece of graph paper! Puzzled I asked what he was doing. He said the daily puzzle got too easy, the Sunday puzzle got too easy, the double crostic got too easy and the cryptogram got too easy, so he started doing the Sunday puzzle in ink on blank graph paper, in 15 minutes. I did not touch a crossword puzzle again for thirty years.

Tell us when the Eddie Palimieri CD is coming out. El Rey de los Blancos y los Negros! I do not buy a lot of CD's but I am buying that one, for sure.

Just a wonderful recording. It captures the feel of the music, the audience and has great, great audio.

[Remoteness]

Thank you very much.

I trust you were just kidding and this isn't a disincentive to you, but more of an incentive for growth.

Man, I hear you on the crossword puzzle front. I too had a client that sat in his chair in the CRM doing the NYT crossword puzzle in ink (with no mistakes) while we were setting up his show. He usually got the puzzle done way before we were ready for him.

Thanks again for the kind words about this recording.

[Fuzzy Logic]

i just happened to be listening and playing around with a 31 band eq with this cd today and i had to bring this thread back to life. i hope its cool.

i was trying to figure out how this record was constructed and noticed something very interesting. when i pushed the upper frequencies it doesn't sound shrill it just sounded more open. i found that pretty amazing.

ive pushed other records and found them way too harsh. what gives? is it the equipment used or some sort of process?

this has become one of my test cds which i bring around alot.

[Remoteness]

I don't know, Fuzzy.

I thinks it's about picking the right mics and gear; positioning them in the best possible way; making sure you capture the tone of the instruments as natural as possible.

When we mixed this record we ran everything through analog gear and tweaked it until it sounded like a record.

I'm sorry I could not be more descriptive.



Oh, on more thing...

Thanks for the positive vibe!