Taking client to small claims court

[Adlen]

Originally Posted by Roland

too a large extent IMHO it's slightly pretentious for most producers to be on percentages. There are exceptions, but they don't apply to the majority of cases.

The other case is the free recording/production

I don't take a percentage for production unless I put as much or more work into the music than the artist, it doesn't often happen but when it does, I want my fair share. Sometimes I'll just bill them for the extra time it took me to work on all that stuff and be done with it because I can't be bothered with the hassle. The other end of that is that I do a fair amount of work for free or very little money, in these cases the artist would rather 'pay as you go' with a percentage of their profits than in one lump sum and sometimes I'm happy to do that. Heh

What I mentioned in my above post about 'my percentage' was just part of my scare tactics. Once paid I won't take a cut, but until then I want every penny that comes in, not discounting the cost to make each disc or anything, they make a loss? I don't care, that's what they were trying to do to me. Owning a studio ain't free

I forgot to mention this earlier, try the HMRC MoneyClaim. It costs a little money but it may work out cheaper than court. Not sure how effective it is but I THINK a friend had good results with his AV hire business.

[Whitecat]

One thing I forgot to mention is that if you want, you CAN pay a solicitor just to send a letter on your behalf. You're basically paying for a form letter on a solicitor's letterhead, and it looks scary to the debtor because they DO think that solicitors are involved so it sometimes encourages payment quicker.

A quick googling brought this up: Letter Before Action | The Thomas Higgins Partnership | Business Debt Collection Solicitors

and there are probably others as well.

I've personally never had to do it, although I've most certainly had to chase debts down hard I have managed to avoid court (and in one case, successfully claim a lot of interest too!) You just have to be persistent, but it's damn annoying - when I got into this business I had no idea what a large chunk of it would end up being debt collection, and it takes away from productivity during busy times.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by NEWTON IN ORBIT

So Roland, how do you handle this then, do you only engineer and not produce any longer? Just take your fee/rates for engineering?

That's about it. Of course the sort of production I do doesn't involve too much to do with the arrangement, that's where I think the line blur's, but I think it has to be decided and contracted before you start, trying to negotiate points part way in is messy and probably not going to work.

If you do produce, what do you do to ensure you get paid?

Depending on the customer, I've been at it so long I can usually tell from the initial contact as to whether I need to get money up front or if I can trust them for the lot at the end, it's not any kind of 6th sense, but if you listen to people carefully their language and demeanor normally will tell you if you are likely to get problems. If in doubt, cash up front.

Points/percentage in writing...and still getting screwed?
That sucks.

Not me, but a very well know engineer with some really formidable albums to his name, offered points on an album, didn't get them, made a stand about it, wasn't asked to do the next album. He kept it amiable, is back in with the act, however, never did get the points and decided to not push it. I've heard of this sort of thing on many occasions and the scenario is always similar.

My personal view is that the personal skills needed to be an engineer/producer at the level we are talking about above, also gives them the sense not to push it too much. As one engineer/producer I know expressed it, he had been offered points on several albums he had worked on over the years, some he got paid, others he did not, his attitude was philosophical in so much that he always looked to be happy with what he was paid as a regular fee, anything else was a bonus.

What do you suggest as a game plan then?

I mean what's the point anymore...

Just curious.
Thanks,
John

As above! Get a fee for the job that you are happy with, look on points as a tip if they happen, contracted or not. There are many reasons why points may not happen from people making hefty promises that they can't keep, to there not being any percentage left to give the points from or even just plain ars*h*** who have no intention of paying. If you get stiffed for your fee (read wages) no one is going to hold it against you taking action. With points, if you push for it, you always have the attitude, "well, did they really deserve them?". Deserved or not you fall into the same sort of category as someone illegally downloading a song as against someone going into a shop and stealing an item and we all know how people perceive this, rightly or wrongly.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I am not in the UK so my experience is only valid for the place where I live.

We had a client that we did a lot of work for. It was a restoration job and the fees kept piling up. We notified him of the expenses and asked if we should proceed. He verbally said to go ahead (our first mistake because it should have been in writing) We finished up the job and he owed us about $1800. He says he cannot pay us for the total amount but that he will pay us for 1/3 rd and he wants to come over and pick up some of the tapes and CDs. (our second mistake) we agree and he pays us $600 and we give him some of the tapes and the CDs equal to 1/3rd of the total. he says he will be back later that month for the rest. We don't hear from him again. We send a letter to him registered mail and it is refused. We have our lawyer send him a registered letter and it is refused. We finally decide to take him to small claims court. We go to the local court and pay our fees. He is sent a letter by registered mail which he refuses. The trial date is set and he is sent a letter by the court and it too is refused. We go to court and the judge finds in our favor and the defendant is ordered to pay us. He is sent a registered letter notifying him that he owes us $1200 plus court costs and fees. It too is refused. I contact the police in the city in which he lives and they invite me to come over and discuss the matter with them. It is about an hour's drive and when I get there the police, with the court order in hand, drive me over to his house. There is a big for sale sign on this lawn and the house is vacant. He had moved to Arizona a week before we arrived. Se right now I have a court ordered payment and this guy is gone.

Even if he was served with the court documents and ordered to pay it is basically up to him how he repays us. One of my friends got a court ordered injunction against a person that owed him over $1000.00 and the defendant agreed to pay him at the rate of 1 penny a month. The laws in the state of Ohio are seriously flawed in favor of the person who owes you money.

I wish you only the best and hope it comes out in your favor.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

I am not in the UK so my experience is only valid for the place where I live.

We had a client that we did a lot of work for. It was a restoration job and the fees kept piling up. We notified him of the expenses and asked if we should proceed. He verbally said to go ahead (our first mistake because it should have been in writing) We finished up the job and he owed us about $1800. He says he cannot pay us for the total amount but that he will pay us for 1/3 rd and he wants to come over and pick up some of the tapes and CDs. (our second mistake) we agree and he pays us $600 and we give him some of the tapes and the CDs equal to 1/3rd of the total. he says he will be back later that month for the rest. We don't hear from him again. We send a letter to him registered mail and it is refused. We have our lawyer send him a registered letter and it is refused. We finally decide to take him to small claims court. We go to the local court and pay our fees. He is sent a letter by registered mail which he refuses. The trial date is set and he is sent a letter by the court and it too is refused. We go to court and the judge finds in our favor and the defendant is ordered to pay us. He is sent a registered letter notifying him that he owes us $1200 plus court costs and fees. It too is refused. I contact the police in the city in which he lives and they invite me to come over and discuss the matter with them. It is about an hour's drive and when I get there the police, with the court order in hand, drive me over to his house. There is a big for sale sign on this lawn and the house is vacant. He had moved to Arizona a week before we arrived. Se right now I have a court ordered payment and this guy is gone.

Even if he was served with the court documents and ordered to pay it is basically up to him how he repays us. One of my friends got a court ordered injunction against a person that owed him over $1000.00 and the defendant agreed to pay him at the rate of 1 penny a month. The laws in the state of Ohio are seriously flawed in favor of the person who owes you money.

I wish you only the best and hope it comes out in your favor.

Any way of getting it from the sale of his house?

[Boschen]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Any way of getting it from the sale of his house?

In my neck of the woods, we file a tradesman's lien on the home. Costs fifteen bucks, and takes about an hour to file.

In the states, the bank can't sell a home until all liens are paid off, or else the liens are paid from the sale. I'm fuzzy on exact details; I only know that I've had to threaten their use once or twice, and the clients paid immediately. In both cases, they were the owners of newly built homes where we'd installed the AV systems. Not the same situation, but use whatever means you can to recover your assets!

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Adlen

I forgot to mention this earlier, try the HMRC MoneyClaim. It costs a little money but it may work out cheaper than court. Not sure how effective it is but I THINK a friend had good results with his AV hire business.

I've done this twice - once for a bad debt of my own - made a site visit, invoice in the post for my day fee plus costs, no response, etc etc after a final demand I did the claim, no response, after 30 days ruling automatically went in my favour, sent the baliffs in, the guy paid up (probably double what he owed me).

The second case was a little more of a grey area - my wife invoiced for some promotions work, invoice was never received - she sent a second invoice, and then forgot about it for over a year! when we realised she was never paid, the client started claiming that she "must have been paid" but couldn't prove it because she'd moved accountants, blah blah...then sent a rude letter back stating her terms (that we had to invoice within 2 weeks - which we had) and that it was "unfair to chase this after so long" (what, because you didn't pay up the first time?).

Anyway, after a final demand we again went through small claims, and a week later a cheque arrived in the mail. Evidently her lack of accounts organisation didn't extend to losing her chequebook.

Paul, my bet is that if you give them a written warning that in 7 days you'll be starting a claim against them, they'll either pay up then or within the small claims time after they receive the writ. For this amount I wouldn't go to solicitors etc - you'll lose cash in the long run. For a business of any size, a day at court is worth less than the £500 or whatever that they owe you - it makes sense for them to just pay up, and no business really wants legal proceedings hanging over them.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

For a business of any size, a day at court is worth less than the £500 or whatever that they owe you - it makes sense for them to just pay up, and no business really wants legal proceedings hanging over them.

Final demand letter sent, so we shall see. I hear everything you're saying. However, I'm not confident that this client is going to be so rational. It definitely wasn't a rational phone conversation that we had the other day.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by LX3

Final demand letter sent, so we shall see. I hear everything you're saying. However, I'm not confident that this client is going to be so rational. It definitely wasn't a rational phone conversation that we had the other day.

I know what you mean! hopefully in the cool light of day, they'll realise that since their bluster has come to nothing and you're not going to be dissuaded, they've got to make a decision - do they seriously try to get away with not paying for something they know they should (and let's face it - they are clearly in the wrong here!) or will they just call it quits before they waste more time and cash on it.

Best of luck with it - let us know how it turns out!

[Tomas Miller]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I know what you mean! hopefully in the cool light of day, they'll realise that since their bluster has come to nothing and you're not going to be dissuaded, they've got to make a decision - do they seriously try to get away with not paying for something they know they should (and let's face it - they are clearly in the wrong here!) or will they just call it quits before they waste more time and cash on it.

Best of luck with it - let us know how it turns out!

This is exactly what occurred for me and in the end I got my $1000... Sometimes it does work out you see... Sadly sometimes it does not, we wish you the former!