Capturing Harp in a big Philharmonic Orchestra

Gaston69 · 25th January 2011

I find it hard to capture the Harp (in this case two) in the Philharmonic orchestra so I decided to put inside each harp a DPA4060.

Here is a link to the recording, would like to get your comments

2 - C.Debussy - Rapsodie for Clarinet and Orchestra by Acoustic Music Recordings on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

The player is in MP3 Quality, the downloaded version is in 16 Bit 44.1kHz

Richard Black · 25th January 2011

That seems instinctively like an idea that 'shouldn't' work, but it seems very effective to me. Perhaps there's a slightly quicker decay to the harp than I'd expect, a bit less bloom on it - but I'm not sure I'd have spotted anything like that if I hadn't been listening with a view to criticising! Nice.

Plush · 25th January 2011

Hello Gaston,

I would be afraid to do what you did. Results are OK and useable.

From the point of view of French music and especially this piece it is nice to have a wash of sound. You are not meant to hear the harps with pinpoint distinction. The orchestration prevents you from getting a clear capture. That is intended.

I do like that you have captured the percussion instrument quality of the harps which is often missed.

I always mic both harps not too close, avoiding picking up pedal noises.

Whereas the Pet Shop Boys go crazy with a very loud harp part ( I luv it!) in their music, here it is part of a gossamer texture.

mathieujm · 26th January 2011

Very nice Gaston.
About the harp, I think there should be more distance and a little less presence, something like the triangle (is it the english word ?).
Also the violins lack a little "mist".

All the winds are perfect.

JMM

JEGG · 26th January 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plush

From the point of view of French music and especially this piece it is nice to have a wash of sound. You are not meant to hear the harps with pinpoint distinction. The orchestration prevents you from getting a clear capture. That is intended.

From a musician's POV: Perfectly said, rarely said, often not considered.

roonsbane · 27th January 2011

I did this 4060 trick once while recording a Heiner Goebbels piece with the Orchestra of the age of enlightenment (Man that's a huge name). Every instrument was close miked along with prerecorded material and everyone in the orchestra had to at some point speak dialog lines while playing their instrument. There were a lot of mics. The FOH guy recommended this and I was sceptacle, but then pleasently surprised. It was nicely percussive as Plush said. I almost liked the 4060's woodyness more than its acoustic sound. I always feel that sonically harp could stand to sound more like a nice classical guitar with more body and punch, but I try not to follow that instinct and hopefully just make it sound like itself. Same with piano forte. It is not a sound that for me comes close to a nice modern piano.
Cameron

studer58 · 28th January 2011

Another method that can work well with 2 harps is to put a fig.8 mic between them, with the plane of rejection facing the orchestra. You'll gain some of the attack that's lost when there's no spotter, and let your main pair or outriggers catch the 'bloom' or sustain of the harps, as intended by the composer/conductor. Fig.8 also helps with rejecting foot shuffles and pedal noises of the harpists, esp. if it's on a low stand 2.5 to 3 ft off the ground. Beware of the mic casting shadows on the sheet music that's inevitably located right where you'd like your mic stand to be !

Mats H · 29th January 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by studer58

Another method that can work well with 2 harps is to put a fig.8 mic between them, with the plane of rejection facing the orchestra. You'll gain some of the attack that's lost when there's no spotter, and let your main pair or outriggers catch the 'bloom' or sustain of the harps, as intended by the composer/conductor. Fig.8 also helps with rejecting foot shuffles and pedal noises of the harpists, esp. if it's on a low stand 2.5 to 3 ft off the ground. Beware of the mic casting shadows on the sheet music that's inevitably located right where you'd like your mic stand to be !

I usually do this when recording two harps, MKH30 is good for this.

Plush · 29th January 2011

Believe it or not the #1 harp mic contender is the BLUE Baby Bottle.

I have tested many mics in this harp position and this always offered the most beautiful pickup.

Also a minor drama story----a harp playa was called before an orchestra discipline committee because the person repeatedly moved the harp accent mic closer to themselves and away from their partner.

Every day it was placed by the engineer and every day it was moved out of the proper position to pick up the two harps. Then when the playbacks were had, the playa was heard to muff a lot of notes. The ploy backfired.

25th January 2011	#3
Plush Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2003 Location: EARS/Chicago Posts: 4,274 2 Reviews written	Hello Gaston, I would be afraid to do what you did. Results are OK and useable. From the point of view of French music and especially this piece it is nice to have a wash of sound. You are not meant to hear the harps with pinpoint distinction. The orchestration prevents you from getting a clear capture. That is intended. I do like that you have captured the percussion instrument quality of the harps which is often missed. I always mic both harps not too close, avoiding picking up pedal noises. Whereas the Pet Shop Boys go crazy with a very loud harp part ( I luv it!) in their music, here it is part of a gossamer texture. __________________ Atelier HudSonic, Chicago EARS-Chicago (Engineering And Recording Society) visit me at https://public.me.com/hudsonic1 to hear recordings and ephemera

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25th January 2011	#1
Gaston69 Lives for gear Joined: Aug 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 664 Thread Starter	Capturing Harp in a big Philharmonic Orchestra I find it hard to capture the Harp (in this case two) in the Philharmonic orchestra so I decided to put inside each harp a DPA4060. Here is a link to the recording, would like to get your comments 2 - C.Debussy - Rapsodie for Clarinet and Orchestra by Acoustic Music Recordings on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free The player is in MP3 Quality, the downloaded version is in 16 Bit 44.1kHz __________________ Sir George Martin . . . a remarkable insight into the most important piece of equipment in the recording studio - the human brain. www.acoustic-music-recordings.com WTB: MY16MADI64 MADI Board for Yamaha Mixer WTB: 1-off B&K4006

25th January 2011	#2
Richard Black Gear maniac Joined: Dec 2010 Location: London Posts: 265	That seems instinctively like an idea that 'shouldn't' work, but it seems very effective to me. Perhaps there's a slightly quicker decay to the harp than I'd expect, a bit less bloom on it - but I'm not sure I'd have spotted anything like that if I hadn't been listening with a view to criticising! Nice.

26th January 2011	#4
mathieujm Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2008 Location: France - Toulouse Posts: 554	Very nice Gaston. About the harp, I think there should be more distance and a little less presence, something like the triangle (is it the english word ?). Also the violins lack a little "mist". All the winds are perfect. JMM

27th January 2011	#6
roonsbane Gear addict Joined: Mar 2006 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 371	I did this 4060 trick once while recording a Heiner Goebbels piece with the Orchestra of the age of enlightenment (Man that's a huge name). Every instrument was close miked along with prerecorded material and everyone in the orchestra had to at some point speak dialog lines while playing their instrument. There were a lot of mics. The FOH guy recommended this and I was sceptacle, but then pleasently surprised. It was nicely percussive as Plush said. I almost liked the 4060's woodyness more than its acoustic sound. I always feel that sonically harp could stand to sound more like a nice classical guitar with more body and punch, but I try not to follow that instinct and hopefully just make it sound like itself. Same with piano forte. It is not a sound that for me comes close to a nice modern piano. Cameron

28th January 2011	#7
studer58 Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 512	Another method that can work well with 2 harps is to put a fig.8 mic between them, with the plane of rejection facing the orchestra. You'll gain some of the attack that's lost when there's no spotter, and let your main pair or outriggers catch the 'bloom' or sustain of the harps, as intended by the composer/conductor. Fig.8 also helps with rejecting foot shuffles and pedal noises of the harpists, esp. if it's on a low stand 2.5 to 3 ft off the ground. Beware of the mic casting shadows on the sheet music that's inevitably located right where you'd like your mic stand to be !

29th January 2011	#9
Plush Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2003 Location: EARS/Chicago Posts: 4,274 2 Reviews written	Believe it or not the #1 harp mic contender is the BLUE Baby Bottle. I have tested many mics in this harp position and this always offered the most beautiful pickup. Also a minor drama story----a harp playa was called before an orchestra discipline committee because the person repeatedly moved the harp accent mic closer to themselves and away from their partner. Every day it was placed by the engineer and every day it was moved out of the proper position to pick up the two harps. Then when the playbacks were had, the playa was heard to muff a lot of notes. The ploy backfired.