Could use some advice, recording acoustic trio

[bobby yarrow]

So, next week I start production on the trio portion of this acoustic act I've been working on. The trio is: ac gtr, double bass, snare/kick/HH with brushes.

In preproduction, it became clear that the singer/gtr player gives and takes a lot of time, and I think it'll be hard for them to follow if they're not all in the same room. This isn't a band, for what it's worth; the drums and bass are ringers brought in for the project.

My live room isn't huge, about 16x20. Without getting into mics & pres, I'm interested in your thoughts on general approach.

I'm thinking about setting them up in a sort of triangle, with the bass and guitar equidistant from the snare, and starting with an omni in middle. Given that the drummer's going to be stirring the soup more than smacking anything, I'm thinking about a condensor a foot or so above the snare to get the snare and hats, and another out in front of the kick. I'll mic the double bass & acoustic gtr too, maybe with an xy on the guitar.

Another option that has some appeal is an m/s array over and behind the drummer, sort of looking out into the room. The trick with that is that I'd need arrange them in a line (assuming, rightly, that I'm going to want the guitar and bass in the middle). And that seems kind of odd.

Also thinking a bit about baffles. I almost never use them, finding that the bleed around baffles sounds worse than just letting a full-spectrum bleed come thru. But this is much quieter than what I'm used to recording. Maybe I could get some satisfaction out of baffles.

Any thoughts most appreciated.

[warhead]

Get an idea of where the drummer should be, and then ask him to setup there when they arrive. Then see where the other guys naturally end up. If that's acceptable and the bleed is good I'd say leave them be and comfy.

War

[bobby yarrow]

You ever use gobos War?

The fancy ones I've seen in commercial studios, which are basically like interlocking sections of wall, obviously provide pretty good isolation. But I haven't been real pleased with the results of either minimal baffling -- stage curtain hung on a boom -- or DIY foam&sheetrock gobos. Great for making a little vocal booth in my live room, but not so useful when trying to control multiple sources.

[warhead]

I don't have gobos in my room, sure I've used them. But the odd shape of my place doesn't allow it. When I move into the "big room" which is a 2006 plan...then I'm going to build ceiling high gobos with windows in them.

Alan Parsons made a great point that stuck with me, in "Behind the Glass" he said he sees so many folks trying to minimize phase problems by moving things apart...whereas he moves things closer together many times to minimize phase issues. Makes sense, but isn't typically a first instinct.

War

[JonCraig]

i used to intern for a well-resepected bluegrass engineer (think several ibma's & grammys) who wouldn't think twice about putting three players in a room the size of yours, with only baffles between them. and the baffles were only 4ft. high, so the players could maintain eye contact while seated.

i'd say set them up however works best for them, and then use mic selection to your advantage, remembering that (for example) a fig 8 mic has a full null at 90 & 270 degrees, while a cardioid is only 20 or 25 dB down from behind. maybe you can put an r84 on the acoustic, with the null pointed at the drum kit?

i know you said you didn't want to get into gear choices, but you get what i mean.

let us know how it turns out!

--jon

[bobby yarrow]

So, Jon, you're liking baffles and some attempt at separation then? My omni-in-the-middle idea doesn't appeal to you?


I'm also curious about you'd mic the drumkit on those bluegrass sessions. While I've recorded some singer/songwriter stuff before, I've never mic'd a drumkit for anything except rock. (I'm actually a very bad choice for this act -- no experience, don't even listen to this kind of music -- but they like me and I'm cheap.)

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by bobby yarrow

So, Jon, you're liking baffles and some attempt at separation then? My omni-in-the-middle idea doesn't appeal to you?

if you've got the extra mic & i/o, then, sure... go for it. it may work very well come mix time. i'd first try mixing with it (basing the balances around what is & isn't in the omni) and see how it works. if it's not happening, try time-aligning it (assuming it's relatively equidistant from the other sources). then try a mix without it. see which one gives you what you're looking for.

Originally Posted by bobby yarrow

I'm also curious about you'd mic the drumkit on those bluegrass sessions.

i'd probably go with a nice pair of small diaphragm guys, either spaced or NOS over the kit. regular ol' 57 on snare, or whatever you prefer, and maybe a kick in & kick out. a d12 or re-20 would be good starting points. with this type of genre, you typically don't want a rock-sounding kick, more of a "woof"--not too much damping of the heads. if you're a "mic the hats" kind of guy, then do what you normally do there. i usually only mic the hats if i don't hear enough of 'em in the OH's.

Originally Posted by bobby yarrow

(I'm actually a very bad choice for this act -- no experience, don't even listen to this kind of music -- but they like me and I'm cheap.)

hey, man... don't sweat it. i've done lots of gigs where i was *far* from the ideal person for the deal. just be confident, yet still open to suggestion. chops are chops, no matter what the genre. and a *whole* lot of what i learned from the previously mentioned bluegrass engineer i've been able to apply to rock records.

don't be afraid to say, "you know guys... that doesn't sound quite right. give me 2 minutes to move those overheads around," or whatever. be sure to let us know how it turns out!

--jon

[Rick Sutton]

Well, I'd go for as much isolation as the situation allows. The approach that you first laid out, allowing the bleed to add to the recording is, in my opinion, a recipe for disaster. Most likely you'll end up with a washed out tangle that will not serve their or your purposes.
I sincerely wish you success with whatever approach you take, but 35 years and hundreds of sessions of the type you are describing gives me concerns with the "classical" approach you are proposing.

[bobby yarrow]

Thanks all.

To be clear, if it was up to me, I'd have them in separate rooms. (Probably playing on a click, if I was producing them.) I don't buy that bands need to see each other to find the mojo -- how often do you see a live act where the band's all facing each other? My own live experience doesn't involve a lot of looking around to make sure the drummer's having a nice time. I collapsed during a show once, very rockstar, and nobody in my band noticed. Hell, half the time I can't even hear anything very well . . .

I also find bleed stinks. Not because I want to put some delay on the vocal that I don't want on the snare, but because the bleed sneaks in and comb filters everything in unpredictable (to me) and unpleasant ways. Hard enough to mic a drumkit, let alone a drumkit + the rest of the band.

Note that this guy is using only a snare, kick and hats. Think cocktail drum. Can't think of what to with that except put 1 mic on the whole thing, or just spot all 3 pieces.

Final question: why not mix this in mono? Or, asked another way, what am I going to pan anywhere other than dead center? Vox, bass, kick, snare, HH, solo ac gtr. Weird.

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by bobby yarrow

I don't buy that bands need to see each other to find the mojo -- how often do you see a live act where the band's all facing each other?

to each his own, but i'd never think of putting a player in a situation where he couldn't see another player. through glass is fine.

Originally Posted by bobby yarrow

the bleed sneaks in and comb filters everything in unpredictable (to me) and unpleasant ways.

some of the greatest sounding records ever where a few mics in one room, no doubt picking up bleed from everything else (think motown). those guys just knew *how* to use the bleed. bob olhsson once said, "use positive bleed. bleed builds records."

that said, it's your record and you can do it however you want. but don't discount the fact that a single look between the drummer & bass player will instantly tell them both that they should push beat four coming out of the chorus, or between the guitar & the bass player that means they'll go to the flat 7 before resolving. i've seen it happen, and these little things are where the magic is on tracking day. anyone can play the chart, but letting great players communicate to each other while playing is absolutely essential.

Originally Posted by bobby yarrow

Note that this guy is using only a snare, kick and hats. Think cocktail drum. Can't think of what to with that except put 1 mic on the whole thing, or just spot all 3 pieces.

this is 2006... i'm of the mind that stereo drums are a good thing. even if they're only occupying the left side of the spectrum, i like the space and air you get. but it's not my session.

Originally Posted by bobby yarrow

what am I going to pan anywhere other than dead center? Vox, bass, kick, snare, HH, solo ac gtr. Weird.

i'd certainly go for vox up the middle. but why can't you put others elsewhere? envision how they'd play live. at a little hole in the wall club. the drummer is buried in a corner off to the right, the acoustic player is off to the left, the bass player is in the center, or slightly off to the left, and the vocalist stands in the center. do lots of experimenting with pans.

--jon

[bobby yarrow]

Thanks Jon.

There's a fundamental production decision that needs to be made, and it ain't going to be made by me. If she wants a live-stage kind of record, you're right, make the stage, let it bleed.

If I was producing this record, well, a lot of things would be different. For on thing, there'd be a lot of pedal bass and mellotron . . .

The singer is self-producing, and I don't think she fully apprehends how much she's giving up by going live. We did pre-production with 5 channels just to get her guitar and vocal. I mixed one song, and gave her just the vocal and the best gtr channel for the rest, and she was really worried about the 'thin' guitar sound on the unmixed tracks.

I dunno. The more I think about it, the more sure I am what I'd do.

[PRobb]

I'm with JonCraig here. Set up the band as they would be on stage. guitar/singer center, drums on one side bass on the other. The optimal situation would be if they didn't have to wear headphones. If the drummer is playing brushes on a small kit, this should work. If the players are good, they will mix themselves so they can hear each other.
Then mic the band with an x/y pair of SDCs. Mic all the individual instruments as usual, but start the mix with the pair, and see what needs (or doesn't) enhancement from the close mics. The small kit and the upright should just love the sound of the pair.
If the singer "gives and takes a lot of time", that is part of the performance. Don't try to smooth it out. Let it breathe.

[Rick Sutton]

No question that for this type of music that sightlines are critical. Acoustic isolation is also critical. Don't know how your studio is put together, but mine has iso areas with windows, the one for the singer/ guitar player is with "french" doors so sightlines are pretty much floor to ceiling.
I know we're not disagreeing here, but I really found the bleed approach to be the wrong direction given the info in the original post.
Is the singer dead set against headphones? Obviously the two "ringers" should have no problem with any method. I'm not against all people in the same room if the circumstances DEMAND it. Two days ago I recorded an eight person balalaika group all in my main room without headphones. That was the only way they could be recorded properly. So, sometimes it is the right method. But the scenario outlined here ( type of music, drums, two ringers, one amatuer) all screams for the ability to have as much control as possible.
As to mono. Is this in the vain of thirties hotel room recording? "O Brother where Art Thou?". Just have them sing into yonder can. If not, some stereo feel can easily be accomplished. Does the guitar have a decent sounding pickup on it? If so, pan the pickup slightly left and the mic to the right. Envelope the voice with the guitar. Drums are obvious stereo candidates even if it is only a snare. It never hurts to have a couple of cymbals up for this type of music. Brushes, blaststicks etc. are your friends here.
As mentioned earlier, 4 foot high baffles are very useful if you can't use isos. Because the music is quiter than R&R baffles can be very effective in controlling the spill.
By the way, in no way am I advocating that you make your client uncomfortable with improper recording methods, it's just that I haven't picked up anything that says your client is forcing you to use methods that are different than your normal. It seems that you are concerned that this music must be recorded in a different way than you normally do. I have found that most clients ( and I pretty music specialize in acoustic groups and the type of session you are facing. 35 years of just this type of scenario) want the very best sound possible (that's why their neighbor's son isn't doing it) and are willing to try it the way that the pro feels will give the best results. Use what you have learned with rock and bend it to accomodate this session, don't throw out all your experience because this type of music is a new experience. You'll do fine.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by PRobb

Set up the band as they would be on stage..

This isn't a band. And that makes all the difference. One amatuer, two ringers. Haven't spent time honing the songs on the road.
Don't treat them as a band. Big mistake.
Late December I mixed an acoustic trio plus drums that were recorded in another studio. They set them up "like a band". The only usable guitar tracks were the directs. These were pros that knew better. The studio talked them into the idea that the "vibe" would be better that way. They won't record at that studio again.

[bobby yarrow]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

No question that for this type of music that sightlines are critical. Acoustic isolation is also critical.

Well, in my situation, we pretty much have to pick one or the other. Even control room to live room is closed-circuit tv, not glass. I could baffle up my live room til it looked like the set from The Office, I guess.

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

Is the singer dead set against headphones?

Remarkably, she's dead set ON headphones. Wanted to use them even for the preproduction, when it was just her and her guitar.

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

As to mono. Is this in the vain of thirties hotel room recording? "O Brother where Art Thou?". Just have them sing into yonder can.

I was half joking, really. What I'd like to do is get a stereo array on the drums and probably a bit on the main gtr as well. I don't think it's going to be a drums-panned-to-the-corner kind of record. I actually think she's wants something a lot more polished than she thinks.

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

By the way, in no way am I advocating that you make your client uncomfortable with improper recording methods, it's just that I haven't picked up anything that says your client is forcing you to use methods that are different than your normal.

2 great points, both well taken. Thanks.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by bobby yarrow

If she wants a live-stage kind of record, you're right, make the stage, let it bleed.

I can hear it now. Your client after getting the final mixes: " Why does everything sound that way? I told you I wanted a live sound. You know what I mean, no strings and synthesizers and all that junk. Howcome everything is funny sounding? It doesn't sound like (fill in any great sounding CD that was obviously recorded with isolation in a great studio)?"
What the self produced singer songwriter says they want and what they really mean many times are quite different.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by bobby yarrow

I could baffle up my live room til it looked like the set from The Office, I guess.

Sounds like your best option. Get in close with your mics. Distant xy, Blumlein whatever, not your friends here. Not currently recording PC in the forums, but bleed is your mortal enemy here, including voice/ guitar spill. Stay tight, you can build the soundstage out in the mix.

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

bleed is your mortal enemy here, including voice/ guitar spill.

Originally Posted by JonCraig

bob olhsson once said, "use positive bleed. bleed builds records."

that's what makes recording fun! you can do it two completely different ways, with different gear/technique/production decisions, and get two completely different--but equally valid--results!

ain't it grand? best of luck, bobby yarrow, with whichever style you think best fits the situation!

--jon

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by JonCraig

that's what makes recording fun! you can do it two completely different ways, with different gear/technique/production decisions, and get two completely different--but equally valid--results!

ain't it grand? best of luck, bobby yarrow, with whichever style you think best fits the situation!

--jon

Absolutely! There are two radically different techniques being advocated here. And it is very important to note that there is no "right" answer, only the one that fits this particular session. I've used both successfully. The thing I would stress is that you consider the music and the comfort of the musicians first, and tailor your recording approach to the needs of the music.

[Rick Sutton]

JonCraig, PRobb and Bobby,
Thumbs up gentlemen. Bobby now has a couple of different approaches to evaluate. Here's to a great project.
Keep us informed Bobby, this is a very interesting thread and your experiences will be valuable to us all.
Cheers, Rick

[bobby yarrow]

Really appreciate the help in this thread.

End of the day, here's the plan (won't burden you with pres & outboard, but will list mics so you know what I'm thinking):

Drumkit: sm57 on the snare, probably a km184 on the HH, re-20 in the kick, UT70 maybe 5' in front of kit, 3' from ground. 8' wide, 4' high gobo behind the UT70.

Ac gtr: Maybe just a 414, maybe an xy pair, low. (I usually put a mic over the shoulder, but won't, since that'll be over the gobos.) 4x4 gobo angled to block bass and drums.

Double bass: Who knows what mic? Maybe an RE-20, maybe a 4047, going to have to play with this. The player is bringing some clamp thing he's rigged up that clamps into the f-hole and can take a pencil condensor, so I'll try that at least. Another 4x4 gobo angled in.

That's not a hideous number of gobos. I'm ready to find that I need to hang some stage curtain off booms or bring in another 4x4 if anything's out of hand.

I'm also considering putting a mic above the gobos, say 7' in the air and behind the drummer, to sort of cover the room.

I'll give up on pressing them to play in separate rooms. I guess.

Thanks again for the help.