Classical piano recording - levels between tracks

[The Fold Studios]

We've just brached out into location recording and recently recorded 7 pieces for a classical pianist in a lovely room in the National Opera Studios. The recordings are fantastic and we couldn't be more happy with them, but as we're not that experienced with classical recordings I thought I'd ask for a bit of advice with post production.

We've used only very light compression (low threshold but very low ratio) for a constant subtle squeeze, and a very subtle eq just to help with the tame the low mids slightly.

We're happy with all this but the main thing I wanted to know is:

Should I treat all 7 tracks as 1 performance dynamically (as in should I normalise the audio with referance to the loudest peak in the entire performance)? Or should I normalise each individual piece?

I would like to think the former as the latter would produce unnatural jumps in dynamics between tracks but I really don't know what the "done thing" is in classical recordings.

[JazzSax_UT]

The way I deal with classical recordings is to treat the whole project as one performance. So, basically I would set my overall level, leaving the dynamic contrast between pieces.

How did you record the piano?

[theblue1]

I haven't done a lot of classical -- but I listen to a lot of it.

I think the whole-performance idea should be the guiding concept. But I would probably moderate that to suggest that I would go with the subjective impression of a whole, unmodified performance. That is, if a sensitive little miniature played with great delicacy followed some Rachmaninoff barn burner, I would at least consider adjusting the dynamics slightly to make it feel a lttle less like one had to strain to hear the quiet piece.

Of course, in the concert hall, we have to do just that, leaning forward for the quiet parts. But that's the concert hall where, hopefully, the loudest sound is people sucking on cough lozenges. (Yeah, right. I love the folks who have to go service their cigarette coughs with a few quickly sucked down coffin nails during intermission. )

Anyhow, if the listener gets the sense that the audience/ambient noise level has changed, it will probably be a sign that you've adjusted too much. (One reason why a lot of folks like to use an audience mic, so they can adjust the balance between the foreground performance and the audience noise if they are moved to tinker the performance level.)

[Jazzdall]

I have work with a few Classical pianists. All have them have wanted their full dynamic range. I simply set the levels to the loudest piece and the rest fell into place. Most people who listen to classical music seriously have the appropriate sound system to appreciate the dynamic contrast- even between works. Most, not all classical music listeners don't use their iPods and car stereos to listen to the material. So, in my opinion- leave it alone and let the music do its thing.

[The Fold Studios]

Thanks for all the advice. This is re-assuring. It's what I wanted to hear.

[The Fold Studios]

Originally Posted by JazzSax_UT

The way I deal with classical recordings is to treat the whole project as one performance. So, basically I would set my overall level, leaving the dynamic contrast between pieces.

How did you record the piano?

I used a spaced pair of 414s on omni about 10 inches above the strings a few inches behind the hammers. And a further pair of spaced omnis (KM183s) in the room (after a bit of experimenting and listening back we plumped for about 15 feet behind the pianist and and about 8 feet either side.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by The Fold Studios

We've just brached out into location recording and recently recorded 7 pieces for a classical pianist in a lovely room in the National Opera Studios. The recordings are fantastic and we couldn't be more happy with them, but as we're not that experienced with classical recordings I thought I'd ask for a bit of advice with post production.

We've used only very light compression (low threshold but very low ratio) for a constant subtle squeeze, and a very subtle eq just to help with the tame the low mids slightly.

We're happy with all this but the main thing I wanted to know is:

Should I treat all 7 tracks as 1 performance dynamically (as in should I normalise the audio with referance to the loudest peak in the entire performance)? Or should I normalise each individual piece?

I would like to think the former as the latter would produce unnatural jumps in dynamics between tracks but I really don't know what the "done thing" is in classical recordings.

I record piano recitals all the time - and I know the room you mean, I have recorded there.

I don't compress and I have never used any EQ - I do that by the choice of mic. and where I put them.

I never normalise either.

I treat all the tracks as a single performance, I would then raise the overall level, if necessary, so that the loudest peak is within -3dBFS (Red Book says that the highest peak has to be higher than -4dBFS I think). I don't normalise to 0dBFS to allow for inter-sample peaks.

I hope this helps.

Originally Posted by The Fold Studios

I used a spaced pair of 414s on omni about 10 inches above the strings a few inches behind the hammers. And a further pair of spaced omnis (KM183s) in the room (after a bit of experimenting and listening back we plumped for about 15 feet behind the pianist and and about 8 feet either side.

I normally don't like miking so close for classical.

My starting position is a 20cm spaced pair of omnis at around ear height at around 2-metres from the piano.

Normally this is all that is required - actual height and distance will depend on the piano, the repertoire and the room - adjust to suit.

My mics of choice are MKH 8020, MKH 20, KM 131-D or KM 183-D (sometimes having the 183s vertical to adjust treble response).

I did recently do a recording where I used a Soundfield SPS200 as a room ambient mic. in addition to the KM 131-Ds; but I don't know if it was used in the final mix as it was for a record company and edited by someone else.

I don't like close mic'ing a classical piano recital - too many piano noises and unnatural. I only closed mic'd once and that was for an intimate feel of Satie piano music; and the mics were positioned near the edge (must have got it right as the CD had excellent reviews at the time and was later re-released by Classic FM).

[The Fold Studios]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I record piano recitals all the time - and I know the room you mean, I have recorded there.

I don't compress and I have never used any EQ - I do that by the choice of mic. and where I put them.

I never normalise either.

I treat all the tracks as a single performance, I would then raise the overall level, if necessary, so that the loudest peak is within -3dBFS (Red Book says that the highest peak has to be higher than -4dBFS I think). I don't normalise to 0dBFS to allow for inter-sample peaks.

I hope this helps.





I normally don't like miking so close for classical.

My starting position is a 20cm spaced pair of omnis at around ear height at around 2-metres from the piano.

Normally this is all that is required - actual height and distance will depend on the piano, the repertoire and the room - adjust to suit.

My mics of choice are MKH 8020, MKH 20, KM 131-D or KM 183-D (sometimes having the 183s vertical to adjust treble response).

I did recently do a recording where I used a Soundfield SPS200 as a room ambient mic. in addition to the KM 131-Ds; but I don't know if it was used in the final mix as it was for a record company and edited by someone else.

I don't like close mic'ing a classical piano recital - too many piano noises and unnatural. I only closed mic'd once and that was for an intimate feel of Satie piano music; and the mics were positioned near the edge (must have got it right as the CD had excellent reviews at the time and was later re-released by Classic FM).

Thanks again for your advice John. Really good stuff. Would your mic position normally be at the side of the piano (as in audience perspective?). The recording in question was for the artist's personal enjoyment, not for anything commercial, so went for a closer sound (although with a good deal of the ambient mics blended in) and tried to achieve a stereo image roughly comparable to the playing position.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by The Fold Studios

Thanks again for your advice John. Really good stuff. Would your mic position normally be at the side of the piano (as in audience perspective?).

Yes, I try and think of how an audience would normally listen to an instrument when I put out mics.

The picture below is a session I did in The Menuhin Hall with Neumann KM 183-D digital microphones - the MKH 20s shown were the back-up (the KM-Ds were used in the final release).

I actually wrote up this session as a User Report on the Sound On Sound forum (it's near the top as I posted an update a day or two ago).

[rumleymusic]

Would your mic position normally be at the side of the piano (as in audience perspective?).

Definitely the way to go for classical. I like the mics a little closer than John, because I like some imagry from the instrument rather than just the room. That is sometimes chastized as a non-classical approach, but I like it and so do clients. But sometimes use a combination of distant miking (3+ meters) and close miking (within the curve), with the majority of the sound captured from the distant pair.

As far as levels. If you are working with similar material, within the same CD, album, whatever, the most approapriate thing to do is apply gain to the whole recording and not individual tracks. If the material is vastly different then use your ears and find appropriate levels that work.

Compression is kind of a taboo subject. 90% of the time, I tend not to use it, but I know engineers who use a very low ratio ~1.3:1 in place of a limiter or other means to tame peaks. Nothing wrong with that.

[Richard Black]

To answer the specific question: DEFINITELY level the overall album, not each track individually.

I almost never compress classical piano, though with the mics that close there's a case for it. Ditto EQ. I've been known to use reverb, though the Blackburn Hall (which I assume is the space you were using) certainly doesn't need any.

I prefer to put the mics down by the tail end of the piano, usually 1-2m away depending on instrument, repertoire, acoustics, background noise levels etc. Most pianos give a slightly nicer balance down there, I find.

[DCtoDaylight]

This is a super-helpful thread! Here's a followup question:

Let's say you record a whole evening's concert, and it has pieces with different instrumentation (small orchestra, orchestra with soloist, solo piano, piano + violin, etc.). Does the same principle of treating the dynamics of the whole evening as one still apply?

The reason I ask is that I've found that maintaining the original relationship of peaks can end up with quiet pieces sounding REALLY quiet on the final CD. I know we're supposed to allow people to use their volume controls and all, but when the peak is 10 or 12 dB lower, it seems kind of extreme. (I don't use any compression; if a piece is very peak-y in one or two spots I'll use a little touch of limiting.)

I don't have a single solution, as the program material has to dictate how levels get handled, but I do tend to boost the quiet pieces more than I do the loud ones....no one's complained to date, but I'd definitely be interested in others' takes on the question.

[NorseHorse]

Using compression in chamber/classical music

Related threads:

Uber clean limiter for live remote mixdowns

Mastering in live chamber and choral music

[panatrope]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Yes, I try and think of how an audience would normally listen to an instrument when I put out mics.

The picture below is a session I did in The Menuhin Hall with Neumann KM 183-D digital microphones - the MKH 20s shown were the back-up (the KM-Ds were used in the final release).

I actually wrote up this session as a User Report on the Sound On Sound forum (it's near the top as I posted an update a day or two ago).

OK, so the 183s are pointed at the ceiling to overcome the 9dB treble boost on axis, and hf wavefronts smear themselves as they travel across the diaphragms. But why not use a pair of flatter-response omnis pointed conventionally? I suspect that the answer is, if you say it is a nice room, that the room character is basically what you are after, and that any softening of the top octave from the piano may be a good thing. Must be a good stable floor because there appear to be no isolation mounts on the 183s. Or did you roll off the bass a bit?

[rumleymusic]

Let's say you record a whole evening's concert, and it has pieces with different instrumentation (small orchestra, orchestra with soloist, solo piano, piano + violin, etc.). Does the same principle of treating the dynamics of the whole evening as one still apply?

In those cases with vastly different instrumentation's and levels I would treat each ensemble differently and go complete piece by complete piece to find and appropriate volume. You still have to be careful that a quiet movement of a piano/violin duo is not at the same level as a loud orchestral work right after. Just use common sense.

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Just use common sense.

Very wise advice!

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Just use common sense.

Who makes this plug-in?



Cheers,
--
Don

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by panatrope

OK, so the 183s are pointed at the ceiling to overcome the 9dB treble boost on axis, and hf wavefronts smear themselves as they travel across the diaphragms. But why not use a pair of flatter-response omnis pointed conventionally? I suspect that the answer is, if you say it is a nice room, that the room character is basically what you are after, and that any softening of the top octave from the piano may be a good thing. Must be a good stable floor because there appear to be no isolation mounts on the 183s. Or did you roll off the bass a bit?

I was using the Neumann KM-D digital mics and the 131 heads were not available when I did the recording - I do now have the 131 heads as well and the last one was done with the 131 heads.

The stands were the K&M 200 with the shock-absorbing feet.

Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[The Fold Studios]

Thanks everyone for making this a really helpful thread!

Being relatively experienced in rock and pop but much less so in classical I've found it interesting and educational.

By the way, the outcome is: I kept the compression (1.2:1 at a fairly low thresh), just to slightly bring up the quiter passages very subtly and also the EQ (about 1dB cut at 300Hz) just because it sounded better to my ears. I didn't use a limiter in the end but just pushed up the level until the loudest peak of the whole performance was around -0.5dBFS.

The client loved it and in end I'm glad we used a combination of close mics and ambient as it was for the client's own personal enjoyment, so an image based on the playing position suited her. Having said that, I think we've got some more piano recording coming up next month and we'll certainly be trying out some of the more conventional classical methods.

PS. Yes it was the Blackburn Hall