Overhead mics for jazz drums

[OmSvaha]

I'm upgrading my recording set-up to the 003 Rack + Factory (with the 8 mic pres) so I can record my band live. It's an acoustic jazz group. I'm looking for recommendations for overhead drum mics. (I may also use a snare drum mic and/or a bass drum mic.)

Since I'll be using the overheads to capture the sound of the whole drum set (not just mainly the cymbals), I was told that using large diaphragm condensers is the way to go. In my price range I've looked at the Sure SM27, the AKG Perception 420, and the Audio Technica Artist Elite AE3000.

Any recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[My Tiny Circus]

I use two Audio Technica 4050s in a Glyn Johns setup and am happy with the result. Here's a sample (not jazz but you'll get the idea)...

drums

I also record a D112 on bass drum, an SM57 on snare and a Pearlman TM1 as a room mic just in case I need them but I'm usually happy with just the overheads.

Any decent clean LDC pair would do. If you're short of cash the MXL2003a is not bad and about $160. Make sure it's the "a". There's lots about them on GearSlutz.

[leddy]

Beyer M160.

A pair of them, or one plus the M130 in mid-side.

If these blow your budget, I like the sound of the Oktava MC012. The high end gets a euphonic smeary sound that sounds good for jazz.

I would not use large condensers for recording isolated instruments in a live setting. But that's just my own opinion.

[freestyle tromb]

I second the 160s. It's an old Steve Remote trick- two of them, pointing straight down, at the same height (high as you like, without getting too close to the ceiling). Center each one around each "group of drums"- e.g., stage left mic is centered between snare, high hat, cymbal, rack tom. Stage right is centered on floor tom, other cymbal, maybe another rack tom.

Sounds like a drum set in a room! The trick is to make sure that the drum set and the room sound good...

[PlugHead]

IMO, don't believe the hype WRT large diaphragm condensers: it's NOT true that they are better, merely SOME people's preference. SDC's are most often more 'accurate' throughout their freq. response, and have better off-axis colouration. That said, 'reality' is rarely what rock folks want to hear in their recordings - not quite the same aesthetic for jazz/acoustic players...

I'd not overlook trying out a few options before buying: see if you can rent a few mics to determine what YOU like best.

On the cheap, I'd suggest ATM450's or 4041's, Oktava MC/MK-012's, or something similar for OH's, and a bit of a sleeper (IMO) is the Chameleon Labs TS-1's. They are not shrill and bright like many current mics, BUT - the omni caps are better for kit as the cardioids are more bass-shy (IMO) and unless your room is good, they might not be the best solution. If those sounds don't appeal to you, then possibly try some LDC's like the AT 4050's, AKG 414's, or others in your price range. The recommendation for ribbons (i.e. Beyer M160's) is a good one too. I've used everything from (at the low end) CL's TS-1's to AKG 451E's to Neumann KM184's, SM69's, U67's to DPA 4011's to Beyer M160's to AEA R88's on jazz kit with varying degrees of success. It all depends on the mic locker, the room, and the player(s) and aesthetic you seek.

Add a Sennheiser 421 (or better a 441) or RE20 or on the low end a D112 or even an Audix i5 for kick, and an SM57/snare and you're done. You can also try different mics on snare, but - if your overheads are the right match for your intent, most likely you'll not often use the snare mic in the mix.

Obviously, if you have cash to throw at it, the sky is the limit for your drum mics. Suffice to say, try out a few options and come back with your findings.

Enjoy,

[sonare]

I agree with Plughead about the LD stuff-- and you do get what you pay for. Interestingly-- the room can have a lot to do with it. Probably the best results I have had is a Royer SF12 but it was in a rather dead space which is no longer available to the festival I record. I have tried Mojave M200 tubes close ORTF (OK) DPA 4003 A-B (very good) and some Schoeps. None have done as well as the SF12 but the room is gone for good. Live performances leave no time for experimentation so this year I am not sure what I will try!

Rich

[Red 7]

Originally Posted by leddy

Beyer M160.

A pair of them, or one plus the M130 in mid-side.

If these blow your budget, I like the sound of the Oktava MC012. The high end gets a euphonic smeary sound that sounds good for jazz.

I would not use large condensers for recording isolated instruments in a live setting. But that's just my own opinion.

+1

[GZsound]

If budget is a consideration a couple CAD M179 mics is pretty hard to beat for overheads, toms..heck, just about everything. They get very good reviews and I use one or more of my three CAD mics for drum overheads at every live gig I do.

I have better luck with them then my AT4041's or Oktava MC012's.

[DannyL]

I actually disagree concerning the CAD mics.

On a budget you may want to hear the AT 4021's (cardioid) or 4022's (omni) Lots of good things said about these: decently smooth response, very low self noise, switchable 10db pad and 80hz filter.

Nice.

Regards;
Danny

[Tomas Miller]

Originally Posted by GZsound

If budget is a consideration a couple CAD M179 mics is pretty hard to beat for overheads, toms..heck, just about everything. They get very good reviews and I use one or more of my three CAD mics for drum overheads at every live gig I do.

I have better luck with them then my AT4041's or Oktava MC012's.

I just used my pair of m179s as OH for John Oates last weekend, D6 on bd and a 57 on snare.. That's it and it sounded great! Wonderful mic for the money.

I've used them on many things in the studio as well... sax, vocal, guitar, etc. Not always the best choice but for many things I've been impressed.

With that being said, I would not use them for jazz OH, my beyer m160s are my choice, and best option with the mics I have in my locker, for that.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by OmSvaha

I'm upgrading my recording set-up to the 003 Rack + Factory (with the 8 mic pres) so I can record my band live. It's an acoustic jazz group. I'm looking for recommendations for overhead drum mics. (I may also use a snare drum mic and/or a bass drum mic.)

Since I'll be using the overheads to capture the sound of the whole drum set (not just mainly the cymbals), I was told that using large diaphragm condensers is the way to go. In my price range I've looked at the Sure SM27, the AKG Perception 420, and the Audio Technica Artist Elite AE3000.

Any recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Arun, gimme a shout anytime. I've got this down to a science. If you don't have my ph#, I'm in the union book.

[jozef]

Originally Posted by OmSvaha

In my price range I've looked at the Sure SM27, the AKG Perception 420, and the Audio Technica Artist Elite AE3000.

Thanks!

I've used a pair of ae3000's as drumoh's a few weeks ago (it was at a studio which I wasn't familiar with), with the glyn johns set-up, and they worked great. They were almost flat in the upper register so the cymbals sounded very natural. Since that session I've been thinking about buying a pair myself.

[scottwilson]

Mono Peluso 2247LE overhead into a Great River and a Manley Baby at the drummer's left hand into I believe an SCA N72. Completely untreated room.

I liked it, but will do another session with them in a couple of weeks and bring my acoustic panels for some isolation and to get just a little attenuation on the reflection points. I think I'll try a little cleaner overhead with a mono AKG 460 and use the 2247 as a center-of-kit in omni.

http://soundcloud.com/scottwilson/bob-meyer-quartet-demo-cut-08

[Corran]

I have used the Oktava 012's a lot on jazz drums, they always please.

However, a pair of Earthworks QTC-1's (in a good acoustic) were just fantastic. They are my go-to pair, provided you've got the room to use them. I've had them inside a drum shell and they still sounded great. I didn't even need any other mics pretty much, not even a BD mic hardly.

[henryrobinett]

Arun!!! What's going on man?

I'm not really familiar with the mics you listed. The Oktava MK-012 is nice. I prefer the Peluso CEMC-6. I think that's in your price range.

I agree generally with the LCD consensus here. However I have been using the Peluso P-12 for OHs in the studio here and I think it really kicks over everything else I use. You know, I only do jazz, more or less. A lot of Gilman, Capital Jazz Project, The Brubeck Institute and my groups of course. As always YMMV!

Good to see you here. Let's play sometime when you get to town.

Edited- I corrected the LDC Peluso to P-12 instead of P-28 as I had originally stated.

[panatrope]

A drummer friend of mine suggested putting the mics beside his head (mono or stereo) because that way very broadly they are hearing what the drummer is hearing. The traditional SM57 on snare , plus kick mic-de-jour if you feel so inclined. I'm happy with AKG C460B/CK61, but I have heard recommendations for the KSM141 in cardioid mode (fast and accurate). For stage/live work wouldn't go for omnis. If anything I would go for fig-8 pointing down for greatest sep side to side (Faulkner array for drums?? What would Tony say?).

I have the AT3032s, the precursor of the 4022s. Despite great promise, they have been supplanted by a pair of Schoeps MK2S for my AB/flanker/hall atmos. I am inclined to save the AT3032s for use inside a piano, but not for PA (run a separate SM57 down a hole for this purpose).

[Washington]

AEA R88, either M/S or Blumlein. For Jazz drums ? Can't beat it. Seriously.

[davidvaldes]

I´ve used a pair of Violet "The Finger" in an ORTF set up with great results (I REALLY like these microphones). Audio Technica AE3000 was used on snare drum, and AKG D20 on bass.

Violet Design USA

[biggs1249]

I have heard good things about the Cascade Fat head ribbon mics. They are affordable and some people have been raving about them.

Hears a video of a group playing with just this mic in the center.

Sounds pretty good
YouTube - Wesley Jensen and The Wildcats "Of Life, Of Love, Of Tears"

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Washington

AEA R88, either M/S or Blumlein. For Jazz drums ? Can't beat it. Seriously.

+1

The imaging on this mic is spectacular. Just find the sweet spot for the kit and bang - instant magic (that is, if the drummer is a pro)...

[JohnRodd]

I'd suggest a pair of KSM 32 (used if need be)

could your budget stretch to that?

they are really natural, flat sounding mics with good detail.

[bcgood]

A pair of M160s hanging down above the drum kit sounds great. Try with a mic bar in ORTF configuration.

Find a nice big room with lots of wood and from there it's all about positioning. I prefer a nice clean pre and a tube/optical compressor.
A nice combination would be a clean pre such as GML paired with an OCL2 tracked to high end tape such as a Stephens.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by tomgadd

try line-audio cm3
lineaudio

they are pretty amazing mics. they have a natural, detailed and balanced response. to me they sound much better than oktava mk012, RODE NT5,
OKTAVA MK 012, kel hm1, BEYERDYNAMIC MC-930......

i can't believe how good these cm3 are. they sound very expensive
but a pair is only 275€ (373,56 US$).

a small clip using 2 x cm3 only. little reverb.
beginning only with cymbals to see how they translate them, then adding some other stuff... toms are slightly out of tune...but hey...
in the background you hear me singing..

recorded with rme babyface using babyface preamps.

and cm3 oh, sm7b-bd, beyerdynamicM201 sn top-sm57sn bottom

I was quite impressed with the cymbal sound quality etc. on the cm3 only clip, nothing is sticking out it's a whole, full sound!

::
Mads

[GYMusic]

I've been using a Rode NT-4 for some time. I love it. I recently borrowed a Royer SF-12 for a session and I loved that too. Single-point stereo mics aren't wide enough for some people for overheads, but I find that they sit in my mixes better than wider.

[thedelugemusic]

Damn Scott, that sounds GREAT...awesome job. Flattering, but not in an unnatural way. What polar pattern did you have the 2247 set to? Did you have it set directly over the snare? Where exactly was the Baby at? Did you use any reverb processing, or is that all the room?

Kudos once again

[scottwilson]

Originally Posted by thedelugemusic

What polar pattern did you have the 2247 set to? Did you have it set directly over the snare? Where exactly was the Baby at? Did you use any reverb processing, or is that all the room?

Thanks - The 2247 was in cardiod about 7 feet up - midway between snare and ride. The Manley Baby was about two feet away from and even with the hat, pointing across the hat to the snare.

Second Baby was on the beater side of the kick, but there's very little of that in the mix.

OH panned to about 2:00 and LH panned full left. Highs are rolled off to about 18k using the Midnight EQ. 2-4 dB compression on the varimu. All of the roominess is the room plus four kits resonating and there's just a touch of some Lexicon Gold Plate preset from the vintage plate native plugin.

Sounds a lot easier than when I was mixing.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by tomgadd

try line-audio cm3
lineaudio

they are pretty amazing mics. they have a natural, detailed and balanced response. to me they sound much better than oktava mk012, RODE NT5,
OKTAVA MK 012, kel hm1, BEYERDYNAMIC MC-930......

i can't believe how good these cm3 are. they sound very expensive
but a pair is only 275€ (373,56 US$).

a small clip using 2 x cm3 only. little reverb.
beginning only with cymbals to see how they translate them, then adding some other stuff... toms are slightly out of tune...but hey...
in the background you hear me singing..

recorded with rme babyface using babyface preamps.

and cm3 oh, sm7b-bd, beyerdynamicM201 sn top-sm57sn bottom

Nice, very nice.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by freestyle tromb

I second the 160s. It's an old Steve Remote trick- two of them, pointing straight down, at the same height (high as you like, without getting too close to the ceiling). Center each one around each "group of drums"- e.g., stage left mic is centered between snare, high hat, cymbal, rack tom. Stage right is centered on floor tom, other cymbal, maybe another rack tom.

Sounds like a drum set in a room! The trick is to make sure that the drum set and the room sound good...

Man, I've been using M160s in that configuration for over 25 years (give or take a few hours) with all sorts of musical genres.

If I'm not following a band's tech rider, I'm using these mics and this technique.

It has only failed me once;-)

[sonare]

I have tried many things on OH but the best thing was DPA4003s on 1m bar with SF12 in the middle, about 2ft above the drummer's head.Mix to taste, but the room will determine the success of it all. The 4003 are there to give a touch more sparkle to the cymbals. 57 on SD and almost anything on kick.

Rich

[AlexK]

I'm a big fan of XY pairs on drums. I've always struggled with spaced pairs on a kit.

The Shure KSM141 is a superb mic and isn't stupendously exensive. Fantastically smooth top end which never gets harsh or edgy. Just sounds 'true'.

I tend to use them on a stereo crossbar in a slightly over-wide XY pair, sounds great!

Fill in with a Beyerdynamic M58 on snare and a nice omni (KSM141 in omni again works well) about 8 inches from the bass drum.

Lush!

I have recordings in progress at the moment which I may be able to post clips of when I'm done...